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I am building the Monogram P-38. Based on IPMS rules, building OOB means building OOB. I can use after market decals, tape seat belts and rigging.

The monogram model has an extension on on the port tail boom to keep the plane from tail sitting.

Can I enter the plane if I cut the extension off and add weight to keep it from tail sitting?

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I would say definitely not, based upon the IMPS rules for OOB as follows:

5.2 The following criteria are applied to OOB entries:

a. Kits: Any commercially available kit may be used. Only parts that are included in the kit may be utilized, including resin and/or photoetch details, provided they are indicated in the kit’s instructions;

b. Finish. All finishing techniques are allowed. Weathering is permitted. Decals other than those included with the kit may be used. Insignia and markings may be hand-painted instead of decaled;

c. Construction . The modeler may: fill seams and gaps; sand off rivets; drill out guns, gun ports, exhaust pipes or other appropriate openings; add rigging and antennae; thin to scale such parts as fenders, trailing edges, flaps, hatch covers and doors; restore lost detail (e.g. during filling and sanding) to match the original kit detail; and rescribe doors, hatches and panel lines;

d. The following is not permitted:

(1) modifying the surface in any way (e.g., apply zimmerit);

(2) adding extra stowage,

(3) substituting parts from another kit,

(4) vacuforming, manufacturing or replacing any part,

(5) cutting or separating canopies, surfaces, hatches, doors, etc.,

(6) combining a standard kit with a conversion kit,

(7) using commercial details to restore lost detail, or

(8) adding anything other than what is specified on the instruction sheet

a), d(2), and definitely d(8) say this is a no-no. Having said that, I like your chances of getting away with it if you wanted to. Unless a judge knows that this kit is a tail-sitter, they will never know the kit has nose weight because aircraft entries are almost never lifted. Also, local IPMS chapter contests may have slightly different criteria for OOB, so your best answer will come from somebody who judges at your local contests.

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Item d2 is about ordnance and cargo though, and all of d is implicitly oriented towards additional detail. Item C relates to basic construction and basically okays simple, "necessary" modifications that can be done without any special tools during the standard building process (especially items that are the byproduct of the necessities of mass production - thick fenders, solid guns, etc.).

My own personal reading would be that nose weight fits within the spirit of the limitations that the rules try to establish: building the best model you can, using only what is provided in the kit and basic modelling skills. And frankly, I'd say that adding nose weight would be an even more basic skill than rigging, or boring out guns...

*However*

There is no such thing as an official IPMS Judge. Contests are run by amateurs and volunteers, so who knows what you'll run into on the day. Few contest officials will have actually read the rules, fewer still will have *studied* them and, while I won't say it's never happened, you're never going to see anyone break out the IPMS rulebook to decide where an entry should compete. Judges and contest organizers make mistakes (often enormous ones), so it wouldn't shock me if some judge took exception and bounced the model up to an 'added detail' class because they've got a thing about OOB rules. Less because "it's against the rules" and more because it goes against their take on whatever they feel OOB is supposed to be. It would be stupid if they did and it would run against both the spirit of the OOB rules and IPMS competition, but... I've been to model contests; not much surprises me. (I also wouldn't be shocked if they bounced a kit because it had rigging, or aftermarket decals, FWIW)

That said, you *could* interpret d8 as forbidding nose weight, if you use an absolutely literal reading. Or, if the judges simply opt for "if it's not explicitly allowed, then it's forbidden." The waters also get a little muddier if you add a commercially produced nose weight; it's still 'just' nose weight, but it *is* an aftermarket part... If you wanted to minimize any potential issues, scrounge your own weights.

I'll also note, I've judged a lot, and I know a lot of judges... I can only think of one instance where anyone has ever pondered nose weight in a contest entry (I built a 1/48 B-1. question: "how much nose weight did THAT need?!?" {answer: about $1 in pennies, stuck behind the cockpit}). Even with something as notorious a tail-sitter as a P-38, where the *only* way to build it without a tail brace is to add lead... nope, I've never looked at an OOB entry and wondered why it's on three wheels.

TL;DR: it's not black and white, but it's probably a light grey. Nose weights are neither explicitly permitted nor denied. They should be fine, and IMO in the spirit of the rules, they're fine... but you never know what you're going to run into on contest day.

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While I agree with Mike above (I have to, since he's my friend :salute: ), this line tells me why it's iffy:

a) Only parts that are included in the kit may be utilized, including resin and/or photoetch details, provided they are indicated in the kit’s instructions.

Since nose weight isn't in the kit and not mentioned in the instructions, theoretically you are breaking the rules. "Instructions" are mentioned twice in a) and D (8), so I think this is the key element. However, to muddy the waters a bit more, my A-10 build I'm working on now has no nose weight in the kit, but it asks you to add some outside of the kit parts- in the instructions. This, I think would qualify as OOB because the instructions ask you to do it.

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In 35 years of IPMS activity on a variety of levels, I've never heard anyone bring up nose weight as a consideration for OOB entries. Paint and glue aren't usually included in the box either, but that's all part of "basic building techniques".

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I think you'll be safe adding it, it's not a detail part, it in itself will not enhance the appearance of the kit other than eliminating a unrealistic part, any judge will have most likely decided on the winner long before the weigh issue becomes a determining factor.

And yes they do pick up your model at the National level, I don't think it's necessary, but some judges feel the need to fondle the models, I was teamed up with one of those a few years back,I personally would not think of even touching someone else model much less pick it up and turn it over, just one of my pet peeves sorry for the rant.

I judge every year at our local contest and try to participate in others we attend,we follow the IPMS rules and are noted for our fair judging.

Curt

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In 35 years of IPMS activity on a variety of levels, I've never heard anyone bring up nose weight as a consideration for OOB entries. Paint and glue aren't usually included in the box either, but that's all part of "basic building techniques".

And asked for in the instructions. I'm not trying to be a rule Nazi, but consider an extreme example that would never happen, but points out where this could go:

There are two Monogram P-38's at a model contest in the OOB category. They are identical in build quality, finishing and all the other criteria that model contest judges look for. One has nose weight and therefore looks natural. The other has a stick on the tail to hold it up, which doesn't really exist and doesn't look natural. Who wins? The model that looks natural or the model that adhered 100% to the kit instructions and parts?

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And asked for in the instructions. I'm not trying to be a rule Nazi, but consider an extreme example that would never happen, but points out where this could go:

There are two Monogram P-38's at a model contest in the OOB category. They are identical in build quality, finishing and all the other criteria that model contest judges look for. One has nose weight and therefore looks natural. The other has a stick on the tail to hold it up, which doesn't really exist and doesn't look natural. Who wins? The model that looks natural or the model that adhered 100% to the kit instructions and parts?

Filler putty is also normally not called for in the instructions but is definitely allowed. I'd say nose weight falls into a similar category. Something used to complete the build but not really alter it. If anything you could use a two part epoxy in the nose and just say that you got a little carried away filling the seam at the nose...so much that it filled in the space totally. The other alternative would be to glue it to the base and problem solved. No stick, no nose weight and still not a tail sitter.

But I would find it hard to believe a judge would knock off points for something inside the model that can't be seen and there's no evidence of it being there or not being there. It's not like they can make you break open the model to prove there's no weight there. Just tell them you used lead based paint on the front to weigh it down. :woot.gif:

Bill

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Many kits now instruct you to add weight so no problem with those. I have even seen some with props such as you say but if you read the instructions carefully (we don't need no stinkin instructions) they actually give you the option to put in weight or use the prop. In your case I would say it is basic construction technique and go ahead and weight it (but not an aftermarket weight)and don't say anything, just put it in OOB and dare anyone to call you on it as no legitimate judge would, only someone that shouldn't be judging in the first place would even think of raising this.

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This part of Item C seems to say that you can reshape the bottom of the tail fins for a more "in-scale" appearance

" thin to scale such parts as fenders, trailing edges, flaps, hatch covers and doors;"

Also, not all "modern" kits of tricycle landing gear aircraft told us to add nose weight,,,,,original Monogram 1/72 F7F Tigercat instructions don't mention it,,,,,and I know I have seen some of those in shows and show pics without sitting pointed at the ceiling

cutting off that little lump in the process of trimming the tail fins, and adding weight in the nose to get the thing to sit on all three wheels would be a very basic modeling skill,,,,,,,so much so that the judges would ding a tail sitter or a P-63 with a prop rod under it

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a) Only parts that are included in the kit may be utilized, including resin and/or photoetch details, provided they are indicated in the kit’s instructions.

Since nose weight isn't in the kit and not mentioned in the instructions, theoretically you are breaking the rules.

I'd argue that a fishing sinker or lead BBs aren't "parts" though, any more than putty or glue are.

Like I said, it's a grey area, neither explicitly permitted nor forbidden. It could be argued either way. However, the nature of the rules seems to be suggestive, rather than explicit to me. Take a. above. A completely literal reading would suggest that, if your kit had a vac form canopy, or cast metal landing gear or wheels, it wouldn't be allowed; it only mentions resin and/or photoetch (come to think of it, would a *truly* literal interpretation mean plastic is out? ;)). But clearly the language is demonstrative, rather than restrictive: only kit parts (rule), including resin and/or pe (as an example). Same with finishing: you can use whatever techniques you want (rule), including weathering, decals, hand-painting (as an example). The way the rules are written suggests they're meant as an indication, rather than a rigid and inflexible outline.

Since nose weight would most likely fit under construction, IMO it fits within that context (d is more 'added details'). I don't think any kit tells you to fill seams. None tell you to drill out gun barrels. Few will tell you to add antennae (note, this is an all-encompassing point - you're free to add rigging/antenna lines to *any* subject that should have it, even if it's not in the instructions). My interpretation of this point is basically, 'yes, you can do the basic, fundamental things required to create a scale miniature.' It doesn't say whether you can add flat spots to improve the sit of your wheels, but I'd say that's arguably within the spirit of the rule, too: simple stuff that needs only the most basic modelling supplies to do.

Like I said, I see how it could be argued the other way. It's not explicitly permitted, and if you take 'nothing outside of the instructions' (except the things permitted in a - c incl.) as meaning *nothing at all* that isn't either in the instructions, or expressly permitted within the rules... yeah, they'd be out. But I don't think the rules are meant to be that restrictive (theoretically), and I *really* don't think it would register to any actual model contest judge whether a kit might have nose weight and whether that fully complies with the rules (practically). It's possible that a judge might bounce a model because it has nose weight and it shouldn't, but that judge would be a massive bellend. :)

Frankly, I think it would be more likely that a judge would bounce a model from OOB because it had a set of aftermarket decals ('That's not OOB! That kit never came with those markings!') EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE EXPRESSLY PERMITTED, than to bounce it because of nose weight.

As for your example... If one had a tail prop and one was on it's gear? It'd probably make the lightbulb go off about nose weight, we'd discuss whether that was okay for OOB, then award both models gold/first place. The weight doesn't matter. It might as well be, "what if one was in European theater markings, and one was in Pacific theater markings?" If they're both built to the same standard, they'll get the same award.

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Hey Mofo...I seem to recall that IPMS rules say somewhere that a kit has to be a certain percentage plastic so if one is going to be really pedantic an all resin kit could not be be entered at all and I've never seen that enforced (although I have seen short run and vacuform catagories on their own). I tend to agree with you on this point as the rules do not prohibit nose weight specifically as it does other items.

P.S. Since I was talking about old times here in another thread I kinda miss "Iron Chef Mofo"

Edited by RCAFFAN
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Really. If IPMS adds nose weight to count as 'modified' they really have become as out of touch with modelers as the US politicians are with her citizens. Add the weight. Live dangerously, and nobody will notice or care. Sometimes I worry about the nit picky fanatical streaks in our hobby.

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Putting nose weight in a kit is just fine for OOB. In fact, it is considered a "basic", if you will. The intent of OOB is not adding anything that will enhance the kit. With that said, OOB as it is now written is kind of useless with all the resin and PE included in kits.

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Tell them you put a ton of putty in the nose to weigh it down. Putty is ok

Don't actually do this though. I made that mistake as a kid. I didn't have any weights so I filled the nose with Squadron Green Putty and melted the nose off.

Putting nose weight in a kit is just fine for OOB. In fact, it is considered a "basic", if you will. The intent of OOB is not adding anything that will enhance the kit. With that said, OOB as it is now written is kind of useless with all the resin and PE included in kits.

I was thinking that in the other OOB thread. I think it is time to replace the OOB category with a basic builder category explicitly stating what techniques are allowed rather than relying specifically on which kit is being built and a list of exemptions (example being complex aftermarket decals ok, but a very simple kit bash or aftermarket conversion is not).

Edited by Aaronw
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I want to thank everyone for your input. I'm going to enter it as OOB at the next local contest.

I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest.

But as long as I am...Riddle me this Batman.

Two modelers both enter an Eduard P-39. One is the Profipak edition and the other a Weekend Edition, but the Weekend Edition modeler bought the same exact extras as are found in the Profipak edition.

Buy the RULES, the Profipak could go to the OOB table and the Weekend edition would need to go to the modified table. Does this make sense or seem fair?

I think there needs to be a change in the rules somewhere.

Just asking the question.

Edited by oldgoat63
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I want to thank everyone for your input. I'm going to enter it as OOB at the next local contest.

I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest.

But as long as I am...Riddle me this Batman.

Two modelers both enter an Eduard P-39. One is the Profipak edition and the other a Weekend Edition, but the Weekend Edition modeler bought the same exact extras as are found in the Profipak edition.

Buy the RULES, the Profipak could go to the OOB table and the Weekend edition would need to go to the modified table. Does this make sense or seem fair?

I think there needs to be a change in the rules somewhere.

Just asking the question.

This is the exact scenario that demonstrates the need to either get rid of OOB or change it to something along the lines of "plastic only".

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NMMK, Non Multimedia Kit (POS came to mind first, lol, for Plastic Only Subjects)

MMK, Multimedia Kit

and then all the regular competition categories

I can as of today count on taking first in the current POS category,,,,,,,but, it is a silent award cat, so far

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Two modelers both enter an Eduard P-39. One is the Profipak edition and the other a Weekend Edition, but the Weekend Edition modeler bought the same exact extras as are found in the Profipak edition.

Well in that specific example, you could just print out a copy of the Profipack instructions, say that's what you build, and enter it in OOB, if you desperately want to compete in that category. Otherwise, I'm sure the IPMS rulemakers would point out, it's not their fault if your build doesn't fit within their existing guidelines; YOU chose what you wanted to build.

Also, it doesn't matter how much extra crap you throw at a model. One P-39 isn't going to win because it has PE, and yours doesn't. All that matters - ALL that matters - is how well you build it. If anything, building a straight-up Weekend kit (not adding extras) is an advantage over a Profipack release, since the extra PE add further complexity and more potential problems. And building an Eduard kit is *certainly* going to be an advantage over a limited run multimedia kit.

Things will never be perfectly level, fair and equal. It's not "fair" if I build a brand new Tamiya kit and you build a crappy old Starfix kit. It's not fair if you build a Predator with ten pieces, and I build a Mustang with hundreds of pieces. It's not 'fair' if you live close to the venue and I live farther away, and have a bigger risk of damaging my model in transit. There will always be loopholes. There will always be grey areas. Heck, if the laws of a country leave room for differing interpretations, how can you expect the rules for a model contest to be bulletproof.

In the end, though, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. If you want to improve your chances of winning, there is certainly a way to do that (newer kit, fewer parts, plastic only, pick a less popular category). But the point of a model contest isn't (should be...) how to game the system to improve your odds. It's about putting something on the table, competing, talking to the other entrants and hopefully learning how to improve your skills. Winning is a nice bonus, but if that's the be-all/end-all of why you go, you're going to be disappointed. Build whatever you're going to build, enter it in whichever category is most appropriate, then enjoy the rest of the event.

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if the laws of a country leave room for differing interpretations, how can you expect the rules for a model contest to be bulletproof.

Considering that a model contest's rules are much more limited in scope and, I hope, quantity and complexity than a country's, I'd think that it's much more likely for the model contest rules to be 'bulletproof'. I think the biggest problem is people still try to interpret what is usually written in plain English so that they can, as you say, "game the system".

In the end, though, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. If you want to improve your chances of winning, there is certainly a way to do that (newer kit, fewer parts, plastic only, pick a less popular category). But the point of a model contest isn't (should be...) how to game the system to improve your odds. It's about putting something on the table, competing, talking to the other entrants and hopefully learning how to improve your skills. Winning is a nice bonus, but if that's the be-all/end-all of why you go, you're going to be disappointed. Build whatever you're going to build, enter it in whichever category is most appropriate, then enjoy the rest of the event.

Well said.

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In the end, though, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. If you want to improve your chances of winning, there is certainly a way to do that (newer kit, fewer parts, plastic only, pick a less popular category). But the point of a model contest isn't (should be...) how to game the system to improve your odds. It's about putting something on the table, competing, talking to the other entrants and hopefully learning how to improve your skills. Winning is a nice bonus, but if that's the be-all/end-all of why you go, you're going to be disappointed. Build whatever you're going to build, enter it in whichever category is most appropriate, then enjoy the rest of the event.

What he said!

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