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Tail on Gabreski's P-47


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Hi,

I would like to ask experts for info/opinion about Gabreski’s P-47 from the time when he was forced to crash land.

Version with invasion stripes still on upper surfaces has rudder of the different color from the fix part of the tail (the difference is clearly visible):

P-47_gabby_1.jpg

P-47_gabby_3.jpg

However on this photo with invasion stripes already removed/repainted:

Gabreskishotdown_zps20449032.jpg

it looks like the whole tail, rudder included, is of the same color which looks differently from grey and green on the fuselage.

And on this photo:

0002S8B3WIWX1AD3-C116-F4.jpg

the part of the rudder from the top to the elevator has color different from the part of the rudder from elevator to bottom, something like here:

P-47_Tail_-_small.jpg

I have never seen profile or kit with such painted tail/rudder.

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

66misos

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Not sure what you're asking; All four pictures of HV*A you posted have the rudder in all red, matching the front of the cowl. This was the standard for the 61FS/56FG from c. March or April 44 to the end of the war (the 62FS and 63FS had yellow and blue rudders, respectively, along with the red cowl front). The first 2 are taken at an earlier time than the last 2, at least a couple weeks to a month earlier, which is why the upper surface stripes are gone in the last 2 images.

The area in the 4th photo that appears a different color is because the rudder has a discontinuty in contour in that area resulting in changes in relection angle of the light along that line.

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Joe, thanks for response. I had basically two questions:

1.) Only rudder or whole tail was red?

I know red rudder was standard.

On the first photo dark green on the engine cowling same as on the tail is apparently darker than red.

However, on the third photo whole tail (both fix part and rudder) looks darker than dark green on the fuselage.

2.) Was rudder red completely or only its part above elevator?

Also on the third photo just bellow/behind elevator bright thin area on the rudder is visible, brighter than upper part of the rudder.

Plus, in the meantime, here is the third question. Serial number was white or yellow?

Serial number on Gabreski's plane is very bright, same as white invasion stripes,

while serial number on this T-bolt is apparently darker than white band on the tail (e.g. yellow):

My link

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If you look at the uppersurface of the wing this also appears as light, the same as the fixed tailplane. I suggest this is a mixture of dust from the crash landing and light angle, rather than a different colour of paint.

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The whole rudder, but only the rudder was red. The fin was camo'ed.

As for the serial, since this airplane was delivered in NMF, the serial was originally black. When the airplane was painted in theater, the serial would have been repainted, obviously. Since the codes were painted white, it makes sense to me that the serial was painted white at the same time - there isn't any other use of yellow on the airplane and the paint was already in the gun...I don't know for sure, but the photos seem to show the same color as the codes.

The yellow serial on the airplane in your link was the factory color for airplanes delivered in OD/Gray.

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I agree that the rudder could be red in the crash landing photo but that the lower section looks like a different colour - possible the rudder got damaged on the lower section and just that part of it got repainted with what they had available at the time.

But to me the fact that the demarcation line on the rudder is exactly where you would expect the OD/NG meet to be seems to much of a coincidence, so it could be that the whole rudder is a replacement from a OD/NG aircraft, but the question is did then somebody repaint it red but only over the OD part, leaving the NG visible?

Now the 'A Fighter Pilot's Life' book, on the cover and a profile within is shows a red rudder with a green lower part to it (matching the rest of the green camo), but they also show a wavy demarcation line lower than it is in the crash photo.

As for the serial number, to me it looks very slightly darker than the white of the invasion stripe and insignia and an RGB check seems to support this, and depending on the film/filter used the yellow can appear lighter or darker and the added point that it might not have been the correct yellow used when the aircraft was painted, as required in the original specs so it could be a little lighter anyway. I've got plenty of P-47 pictures where the serial number appears quite light.

Edited by Tbolt
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Unfortunately T-Bolt, this was never an OD over NG bird, but came from the factory in NMF. It received its camo at either a depot in England, or in the field. If memory serves, OD over NG was terminated with the D-23 being the first variation in NMF. Those were of course the last of the razorbacks. Without looking up the serial, I think this was a D-25, which same were the first with the bubble canopy.

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Hal, as long as we're on the subject, is there a firm consensus on the underside color? I've heard both bare metal and RAF Medium Sea Gray.

Also, many profiles, decals, and even the restored T-bolt at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo portray the lower fuselage invasion stripes as just white with black outlines. I still maintain that they were the standard black and white, but with some white overspray when the white stripes were masked and painted giving the impression of a black border. You can see a similar effect on the tail numbers (and note how poorly aligned they are.)

Looking at the band on the tail, I think we may be seeing a patch of bare metal. The aircraft would have had black ID bands added when it first arrived in theater (in bare metal) which was later overpainted with camo. I'm thinking maybe some of the original black peeled away, taking the camo with it.

Overall, this was a really quick and sloppy paint job. I don't know if ever seen it replicated well on a model.

SN

Edited by Steve N
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I did say "If memory serves", Joe H. Obviously it didn't, but I'm sure my point was gotten across. The pic of the crashed plane clearly show plain black and white stripes. My belief is that this bird has a light gray botton, possible RAF Medium Sea Gray? think I read somewhere that one of Schilling's planes, same style camo, had a gray bottom with I believe the right underside bare, due to a replacement wing, but don't take that as Gospel, Haven't been keeping up with Jugs for the past little while, having acquired a severe case of "Dora-itis" plus, at 78 yrs, things begin to get a wee bit fuzzy at times. I do try to be helpful

.

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Unfortunately T-Bolt, this was never an OD over NG bird, but came from the factory in NMF. It received its camo at either a depot in England, or in the field. If memory serves, OD over NG was terminated with the D-23 being the first variation in NMF. Those were of course the last of the razorbacks. Without looking up the serial, I think this was a D-25, which same were the first with the bubble canopy.

Hal where did I say this aircraft was painted in OD/NG? What I said was the rudder may have come from an OD/NG aircraft. The first NMF aircraft were actually the second block of D-20RE's.

Edited by Tbolt
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Hi, thanks all for comments.

Here at Critical past are screenshots from film showing Gabreski's plane still with invasion stripes on the upper surfaces. There is also several shots showing:

- camouflaged fix part of the tail:

65675045692_001012_3.jpg

and here is rudder painted red from bottom to top with bright thin triangular area on the fin level:

65675045691_000759_3.jpg

IMHO, it is not refflection as it is visible same from different angles.

I have tendency to believe that serial number was white. The white invasion stripes are also brighter than white on the USAAF insignia on the left underwing and on some pics they seems to be also brighter than white code letters. Simply those newer white stripes are not so weathered or dirty.

Here at P47.kitmaker is discussion about Gabreski's plane.

Note refflection of "A" on the rear U/C door. It does not look like matt grey:

real_gabbystripes_a.jpg

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That's an interesting shot of the tail showing the light part on the rudder, now I'm pretty sure it is just the light reflecting off the red rudder, like agboak said it could just be the added dust in the crash picture that makes it look more like another colour on the rudder below the top part that looks lighter.

Edited by Tbolt
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Like I say it hard to be certain with the colour of the serial number, personally I would go with yellow, but if you go with white it's not like anyone is going to disprove it, of course until maybe a colour photo turn up ;)/>/>/>/>/>

To prove the point here's the tail from your first post which we know has a yellow serial turned B&W 3 different ways:

D5002DE65D934BC99CEA24423E76B231.jpg

3BB7988EA8B44758B4CE008C84D4FB0C.jpg

8D4B862298CE4F268F4E95352E64F745.jpg

If you don't believe the rudder is all red look at the reflection on the rudder of these P-47's:

un-vbar.jpg

fdbab6efe3580bd827a0375cb9fb2b53.jpg

In this picture could can clear see the part of the rudder that is showing up lighter:

2245.jpg

Edited by Tbolt
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Thank for nice pics, especially that last one is very helpfull. I found also this:

tail.jpg

There is clearly visible on this drawing that lower part of the rudder has width and curvature different from upper part and that could cause different light reflection and shadows on the rudder completly painted red. So "fin&rudder" question can be closed.

Lets move on to horizontal stabilizer & elevator.

On these photos of Garbreski's plane:

P-47_gabby_1.jpg

and

65675045692_001541_3.jpg

black ETO stripe and bright reflection is visible on the bottom side of the horizonal stabilizer and elevator, something like here on these NMF T-bolts:

SB3BELGIUM.jpg

and

republic-p47.jpg

or

p47-4.jpg

Such reflection is not visible on the surface painted with matt grey (NG, MSG, LG etc.)

p47-thunderbolt.jpg

There are no black ETO stripes on the top side of horizontal stabilizer and fin of Garbreski's plane and also serial number is newly painted:

65675045692_000989_3.jpg

although originally they were there like here:

ticeY8-.jpg

I think that when they painted RAF camouflage colors on the NMF surface, they simply did not care what is already painted there (e.g. black ETO stripes and black serial number). Both ETO stripes and S/N were hidden under new camouflage. Finally they pained only white (or yellow) S/N, but they did not repeated it with ETO stripes.

All that above lead me to the conclusion that bottom side of the horizonal stabilized / elevator was more probably left in its original appearance, e.g. NMF with black ETO stripe.

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I think that when they painted RAF camouflage colors on the NMF surface, they simply did not care what is already painted there (e.g. black ETO stripes and black serial number). Both ETO stripes and S/N were hidden under new camouflage. Finally they pained only white (or yellow) S/N, but they did not repeated it with ETO stripes.

All that above lead me to the conclusion that bottom side of the horizonal stabilized / elevator was more probably left in its original appearance, e.g. NMF with black ETO stripe.

Sounds good to me - the tailplane is most likely NMF with the original ETO strips on going on those photo's.

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Hi, thanks all for comments.

Here at Critical past are screenshots from film showing Gabreski's plane still with invasion stripes on the upper surfaces. There is also several shots showing:

- camouflaged fix part of the tail:

65675045692_001012_3.jpg

What great pics, thanks for posting. Not sure if anyone already caught this but if you are going to replicate this aircraft, don't forget the overspray above and below the serial number.

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What great pics, thanks for posting. Not sure if anyone already caught this but if you are going to replicate this aircraft, don't forget the overspray above and below the serial number.

Yes if anyone is going to accurately model this aircraft, there's a lot of work in the paint job.

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Yes if anyone is going to accurately model this aircraft, there's a lot of work in the paint job.

You undisclosured me ;-)

What about wing? Firsty let me quote from P47.kitmaker where they had some hig rez photo:

"...After sending the pic to Pro Modeler Wayne Little, the following things were noticed:

1. The front lower cowling certainly looks Medium Sea Grey to me, if it were NMF it would have a brighter reflective appearance I would think… even though the image looks to be taken on an overcast day.

2. The drop tank is painted and not NMF.

3. Now, the undercarriage leg cover ‘looks’ NMF to me, much brighter, certainly when compared to points 1 & 2.

4. However, the small hatch on the U/C door is a lighter colour, could this be NMF and the door Medium Sea grey or even dirty NMF for that matter? There should not be 2 different colours here in such a short time if it was painted, granted, could be replacement cover of course…..?

5. Outer lower wing could well be NMF, the possible giveaway here is the reflection on the Aileron attachments being rather bright and reflective.

6. Now here is a good one for you….from Bill’s large image it appears we have some more Black Tape on the outer underwing white stripe!

7. Even looks like there is some tape on the Inner stripe too, with a bit missing showing NMF underneath!

8. Tail plane has a light coloured area, probably reflection from NMF surface rather than Medium Sea Grey.

9. There is a Black stripe on the underside of the tail plane, would expect that this was overpainted if surface was medium Sea Grey, wouldn’t you think?

10. Spinner –Bright NMF."

Compare the rather bright reflections on the Aileron attachments on Gabreski's plane:

P-47_gabby_1.jpg

with some other planes on the photos from my post above, plus other photos I found mainly at worldwarphotos:

P-47D-25_Thunderbolt_Hairless_Joe_56th_FG_Nose_Art_42-26641.jpg

Republic_P-47D_Thunderbolt_Teddy.jpg

Both planes above seems to have underwings in NMF

P-47D_Thunderbolt_50th_fighter_group_nose_art.jpg

P-47_Thunderbolt_on_Airfield.jpg

P-47D-30_Thunderbolt_354th_FG_Nose_Art_44-32760.jpg

vs. no reflection on the camouflaged surfaces:

Early_Model_P-47_Thunderbolt.jpg

P-47_Razorback__MISS_DALLAS.jpg

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You undisclosured me ;-)

What about wing? Firsty let me quote from P47.kitmaker where they had some hig rez photo:

"...After sending the pic to Pro Modeler Wayne Little, the following things were noticed:

1. The front lower cowling certainly looks Medium Sea Grey to me, if it were NMF it would have a brighter reflective appearance I would think… even though the image looks to be taken on an overcast day.

2. The drop tank is painted and not NMF.

3. Now, the undercarriage leg cover ‘looks’ NMF to me, much brighter, certainly when compared to points 1 & 2.

4. However, the small hatch on the U/C door is a lighter colour, could this be NMF and the door Medium Sea grey or even dirty NMF for that matter? There should not be 2 different colours here in such a short time if it was painted, granted, could be replacement cover of course…..?

5. Outer lower wing could well be NMF, the possible giveaway here is the reflection on the Aileron attachments being rather bright and reflective.

6. Now here is a good one for you….from Bill’s large image it appears we have some more Black Tape on the outer underwing white stripe!

7. Even looks like there is some tape on the Inner stripe too, with a bit missing showing NMF underneath!

8. Tail plane has a light coloured area, probably reflection from NMF surface rather than Medium Sea Grey.

9. There is a Black stripe on the underside of the tail plane, would expect that this was overpainted if surface was medium Sea Grey, wouldn’t you think?

10. Spinner –Bright NMF."

Compare the rather bright reflections on the Aileron attachments on Gabreski's plane:

P-47_gabby_1.jpg

with some other planes on the photos from my post above, plus other photos I found mainly at worldwarphotos:

P-47D-25_Thunderbolt_Hairless_Joe_56th_FG_Nose_Art_42-26641.jpg

Republic_P-47D_Thunderbolt_Teddy.jpg

Both planes above seems to have underwings in NMF

P-47D_Thunderbolt_50th_fighter_group_nose_art.jpg

P-47_Thunderbolt_on_Airfield.jpg

P-47D-30_Thunderbolt_354th_FG_Nose_Art_44-32760.jpg

vs. no reflection on the camouflaged surfaces:

Early_Model_P-47_Thunderbolt.jpg

P-47_Razorback__MISS_DALLAS.jpg

Unfortunately the other pictures you've posted are not showing up for me, but the point about the gear doors being lighter than the lower nose cowl, that could just the way the light is reflecting more of the gear door, like this:

396-p47-c2s-hou-la-la_2_.jpg

Or there is a chance that this aircraft could be like Hairless Joe, that appears to have NMF under the wings:

hairlessjoe.jpg

I think I would go for NMF under the wings as well as the tailplane, but I'm sure it's on of those debates that will go on and on.

Edited by Tbolt
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I have went that way too :).It is interesting frame for the modeller, as she has been changing her appearance several times in her couple of months front line life. It is important to choose the version and then try to put it together. And there are all those little things, like moving the Invasion Stripes out on wings, decoration tapes straightening them on wings and fuselage, oversprays of paint in s/n and the D-Day markings, not to mention the structure of the camouflage itself.

For my work I have prepared the pattern of known parts of the painting and then finished it following the 'idea of the camouflage' taken from known parts and pilot's memories. Guess work only, of course. But I will take a risk and dare say, I have seen no Gabby's D-25 model produced with more concern to the details of the camouflage and markings.

There are quite a few mistakes when it comes to the frame and equipment though, like radio or engine, or cockpit or... . :(

I give the painting plan and just a couple of pics of the model, as I don't want to bore anybody with old gallery in somebody else's thread ;). Maybe they can be of some help anyway. Or another part of the movie I have linked in the end.

malowanie257.jpg

Gabbymalowanie267.jpg

1s.jpg

17s.jpg

39s.jpg

41s.jpg

42s.jpg

44s.jpg

46s.jpg

Movie

Edited by greatgonzo
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Many of the pix shown here, are from different periods of time and locations, some of them being late -M variants. In addition, you show planes of different squadrons and groups. It is well known that at one period of time, the Jugs from the 3 different squadrons of the 56th FG were differently camouflaged, with each squadron having its own colors and patterns. It has also been said that Schilling's plane had a replacement wing, which was NMF on the underside, while the rest of the plane was light gray (LM*S with Hairless Hoe in circle on nose) A lot of useful information can be found at "Little Friends" (Google up), and going to the 56th FG section. gabreski's bird was 61st FS, 56th FG, 8th AF. Oh, and Schillings was 652nd FS, 56th FG (Codes of the 56th FG, 61st SQ, HV, 62nd, LM, 63rd, UN,)

Edited by Hal Marshman Sr
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I have went that way too :)/>.It is interesting frame for the modeller, as she has been changing her appearance several times in her couple of months front line life. It is important to choose the version and then try to put it together. And there are all those little things, like moving the Invasion Stripes out on wings, decoration tapes straightening them on wings and fuselage, oversprays of paint in s/n and the D-Day markings, not to mention the structure of the camouflage itself.

For my work I have prepared the pattern of known parts of the painting and then finished it following the 'idea of the camouflage' taken from known parts and pilot's memories. Guess work only, of course. But I will take a risk and dare say, I have seen no Gabby's D-25 model produced with more concern to the details of the camouflage and markings.

There are quite a few mistakes when it comes to the frame and equipment though, like radio or engine, or cockpit or... . :(/>

I give the painting plan and just a couple of pics of the model, as I don't want to bore anybody with old gallery in somebody else's thread ;)/>. Maybe they can be of some help anyway. Or another part of the movie I have linked in the end.

malowanie257.jpg

Gabbymalowanie267.jpg

1s.jpg

17s.jpg

39s.jpg

41s.jpg

42s.jpg

44s.jpg

46s.jpg

Movie

That's a very nice looking version :)

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Many of the pix shown here, are from different periods of time and locations, some of them being late -M variants. In addition, you show planes of different squadrons and groups. It is well known that at one period of time, the Jugs from the 3 different squadrons of the 56th FG were differently camouflaged, with each squadron having its own colors and patterns. It has also been said that Schilling's plane had a replacement wing, which was NMF on the underside, while the rest of the plane was light gray (LM*S with Hairless Hoe in circle on nose) A lot of useful information can be found at "Little Friends" (Google up), and going to the 56th FG section. gabreski's bird was 61st FS, 56th FG, 8th AF. Oh, and Schillings was 652nd FS, 56th FG (Codes of the 56th FG, 61st SQ, HV, 62nd, LM, 63rd, UN,)

The point of showing a mix of pictures was purely to show what different finishes looked like in pictures to try and work out what we are seeing and not try and prove anything that just the 56th FG did or did not.

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What the 56th did or did not do is pertinent to this thread, whereas gabreski was the CO of the 56th. I notice some iteresting things re the bottom of the Great Gonzo's model. Outer right wingtip in NMF with the rest of the bottom in light gray. I alwso note that he shows the bottoms of the stas and elevators in NMF. These are things I seem to have heard over the past couple of years, but fail to remember where and when, Perhaps the GG would advise his source for these anomolies.

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