Tail on Gabreski's P-47

[greatgonzo]

It is just a result of studying pics of Gabby's P-47, other T-bolts of that moment in time in 56th, any written and said material available to me and putting myself in the shoes of the men obliged to mask and paint the frame in rather a short time.

In the end it is no more then a guess, but educated enough to produce a reasonable explanation when needed. Still only a guess.

The stabs where NMF all right. You can see the black ETO stripe on Gabreski's plane, and on others of the 56th T-bolts of that time.

Gabreski was a 61st FS CO, by the way. He did not command the 56th FG. He used to lead the Group in the air, and has been in 56th HQ for a while though.

Edited July 6, 2014 by greatgonzo

[Hal Marshman Sr]

I apologize for that GG. Zemke was COof the group, and when he transferred out, Schilling took over. By that time, Gabby was a POW. You're absolutely correct that Gabby was CO of the 61st.

[Hal Marshman Sr]

I apologize for that GG. Zemke was COof the group, and when he transferred out, Schilling took over. By that time, Gabby was a POW. You're absolutely correct that Gabby was CO of the 61st.

[greatgonzo]

C'mon, apologising is far to far. I am still surprised Gabreski was not CO of 56th. Even after all these years of following different P-47 angles I had to check this Gabreski's commanding staff before posting. I was sure, but still had to check - it is that natural to see Gabby as 56th CO.

[66misos]

@Greatgonzo - very nice kit. And a serious "homework" before you started. I want to do something similar - to colorize some bw photos to better see campo patterns.

@Hal - as Tbolt wrote my intention was only to show that NMF has typical visual features, while camouflaged surface has different visual features. And under the similar light/photo conditions NMF surface has always similar appearance, regardless different planes or units. And based only on these visual analogies I tried to guess/estimate surface of Gabreski's plane.

Thanks for hint about Little Friend page. Plus I also found web page dedicated to 56FG in WWII.

I browsed all 61FS and 62FS of 56FG photos at Little Friends. Very interesting:

1.) white overspray "improved" by black type seems to be standard approach in the Unit. It is visible on many white part of engine cowlings, sometime even on the red ones.

2.) USAAF insignias are painted on some planes on the right underwings, on the other planes on the left underwings.

After browsing all those photos I came to the same conclusions as Greatgonzo - bottom side of horizontal stabilizer in NMF same as (at least) outer half of the bottom side of the wings.

Of course, it is only my guess and new photos can show that everything is different.

Edited July 7, 2014 by 66misos

[Tbolt]

What the 56th did or did not do is pertinent to this thread, whereas gabreski was the CO of the 56th. I notice some iteresting things re the bottom of the Great Gonzo's model. Outer right wingtip in NMF with the rest of the bottom in light gray. I alwso note that he shows the bottoms of the stas and elevators in NMF. These are things I seem to have heard over the past couple of years, but fail to remember where and when, Perhaps the GG would advise his source for these anomolies.

My point was you where questioning why we were looking at P-47's from other Groups, all I was saying was that it was to show how different things showed up in pictures to help understand what we are seeing in this picture, such as using a NMF aircraft to show what the reflecting light looks like compared to an aircraft with a NG underside. This aircraft appears to have a NMF underside, though it's hard to tell if the inner wings and underside of the fuselage is also NMF or NG. What the other 56th FG aircraft did to their aircraft does not tell exactly how this aircraft was painted, yes you can go on what the majority did but because there where so many variations later in the war it's obviously better to go by photo's of that aircraft.

But lets face it, five different people could model this aircraft and we would get five different versions of this paint scheme.

[Tbolt]

2.) USAAF insignias are painted on some planes on the right underwings, on the other planes on the left underwings.

Obviously under the right wing was standard, but a lot of aircraft added the insignia under the left wing also to help friendlies ID them easier (and were often a lot larger than the standard size), these aircraft would still of had the insignia under the right wing as well.

[66misos]

...these aircraft would still of had the insignia under the right wing as well.

It is interesting that they did not:

[Tbolt]

It is interesting that they did not:

Those pictures are all showing the left wings, I did say they would still have the standard insignia under the right wing (though of course there is always an exception to the rule somewhere) and a lot of aircraft added the insignia under the left wing.

Obviously under the right wing was standard, but a lot of aircraft added the insignia under the left wing also

Edited July 7, 2014 by Tbolt

[Tbolt]

DP

Edited July 7, 2014 by Tbolt

[66misos]

Tbolt, thanks for correction and explanation.

So Gabreski's plane had USAAF insignias of the left upperwing

and no insignia on the right upperwing

but had insignias on the both right and left underwings

Btw, what does mean "DP"?

Edited July 7, 2014 by 66misos

[Tbolt]

Tbolt, thanks for correction and explanation.

So Gabreski's plane had USAAF insignias of the left upperwing

and no insignia on the right upperwing

but had insignias on the both right and left underwings

Btw, what does mean "DP"?

I believe that's correct. There was only one on top the left wing but a larger insignia was often added below the left wing to prevent getting shot down by friendly AA gunners. For ETO aircraft the insignia stars started out a 40" diameter but then they were quite often changed to 55" or 60" diameter and had the insignia added to the lower side of the right wing, though on some aircraft there is a mixture of insignia sizes under the wings.

DP is Double Post.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Tbolt

[dancho]

Lots of good info here:

http://p47.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=153226

[66misos]

Lots of good info here:

http://p47.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=153226

I know, the last post in that thread is mine ;-)

I do not understand one thing.

Plane was camouflaged with RAF paints earlier, before invasion stripes were painted. Photos show that bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer and at least outer half of the underwings were NMF, while bottom engine cowling and fuselage was probably Light Grey. Where was demarcation line between NMF and LG before invasion stripes were painted? Why it should be somewhere in the middle of the wing? Or was LG painted latter, together with invasion stripes?

[Hal Marshman Sr]

Tbolt, If it was Gray, it was a far different shade than neutral Gray. I'm tempted to think more in the line of RAF medium Sea Geay. U S paints were not too readily available, but RAF colors were plentiful, and in a lot of cases, utilized. It is wise to remember, anything U S made, had to be transported over the Atlantic Ocean. Freighter space was allotted on a priority basis, and paints would necessarily be way down toward the bottom of the list. Trans oceanic flight was also in its infancy, and our primary cargo plane until very near the war's end, was the twin engined DC-3, or C-47 if you will. It is also wise to remember that most of these p-47s at the time in question, arrived in theater in NMF, and only when orders came down from 8th AF HQ, was it decided to camouflage them.

"Puny Pug" is a 15th AF Jug, based in Italy, where they didn't use the 2 stars underwing. Whether the 9th AF based in the UK used the 2 star underwing system or not, I can't verify, but I'm thinking it was purely an 8th AF thing. Could be in error as far as 9th AF was concerned. 8th AF T-bolts were intended for bomber escort, and ground interdiction was the primary mission of the 9th. Obviously, as we know, the 8th did start to come downstairs, with the basic idea of eliminating the Luftwaffe on the ground as well as in the air. They also liked to shoot up trains and military vehicles, and as we know, shooting up an airfield was how Gabreski plowed in and became a POW.

[Tbolt]

I know, the last post in that thread is mine ;-)

I do not understand one thing.

Plane was camouflaged with RAF paints earlier, before invasion stripes were painted. Photos show that bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer and at least outer half of the underwings were NMF, while bottom engine cowling and fuselage was probably Light Grey. Where was demarcation line between NMF and LG before invasion stripes were painted? Why it should be somewhere in the middle of the wing? Or was LG painted latter, together with invasion stripes?

I know a pilot's memory might not be the best when trying to remember detail from 50 years ago, but to quote Gabreski from book (A Fighter Pilot's Life) - "It was painted in light grey on the bottom; with dark green and medium grey on the top". Looking at the large print of this picture (below) in this book I don't think the wings had any NMF on the underside. The tailplane though has that reflection and of course the ID strip visible so I guess it's still NMF.

The other point to note, is where the invasion strip were painted over on the fuselage, they have been done quite roughly compared to the rest of the camo - one of the photo's in his book looks almost like it was done with a brush, but maybe it was sprayed by some one that didn't have the talent or time of the original painter.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Tbolt

[Tbolt]

Tbolt, If it was Gray, it was a far different shade than neutral Gray. I'm tempted to think more in the line of RAF medium Sea Geay. U S paints were not too readily available, but RAF colors were plentiful, and in a lot of cases, utilized. It is wise to remember, anything U S made, had to be transported over the Atlantic Ocean. Freighter space was allotted on a priority basis, and paints would necessarily be way down toward the bottom of the list. Trans oceanic flight was also in its infancy, and our primary cargo plane until very near the war's end, was the twin engined DC-3, or C-47 if you will. It is also wise to remember that most of these p-47s at the time in question, arrived in theater in NMF, and only when orders came down from 8th AF HQ, was it decided to camouflage them.

"Puny Pug" is a 15th AF Jug, based in Italy, where they didn't use the 2 stars underwing. Whether the 9th AF based in the UK used the 2 star underwing system or not, I can't verify, but I'm thinking it was purely an 8th AF thing. Could be in error as far as 9th AF was concerned. 8th AF T-bolts were intended for bomber escort, and ground interdiction was the primary mission of the 9th. Obviously, as we know, the 8th did start to come downstairs, with the basic idea of eliminating the Luftwaffe on the ground as well as in the air. They also liked to shoot up trains and military vehicles, and as we know, shooting up an airfield was how Gabreski plowed in and became a POW.

You are right Hal, it's just the the underside of the cowling looked quite similar in shade to the drop tank, which we know is NG, and is darker than the gear door, but again this could be the way the light is falling on them.

There's certainly at least a few 9th AF P-47's with the double under wing insignia's, but I couldn't tell you whether these were added by the 9th AF, or they were on aircraft already that came from the 8th AF when Groups moved on to P-51's.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Tbolt

[Hal Marshman Sr]

I'm tempted greatly to agree with you re 8th AF hand me downs, makes sense, and we know that's where a good many, if not all ETO jugs ended up. That is of course, with the exception of the 56th FG's T-bolts. Then again, when the newer P-47s came in, the surviving old ones had to have someplace to go. Even the WW (war weary) birds were kept operational for taxiing practice, but not allowed to fly. If you're going to ground loop learning how to taxi, better it be a non-flying bird, than one needed for ops

[66misos]

This photo

shows interesting detail - bright fuselage with the evident dark panel lines and rivets bellow the left wing.

I was not able to find something similar on the matt grey painted surfaces.

However it is quite usual on the NMF as seen on this photo mix - Gabreski's plane is in the red rectangular:

[Tbolt]

This photo

shows interesting detail - bright fuselage with the evident dark panel lines and rivets bellow the left wing.

I was not able to find something similar on the matt grey painted surfaces.

However it is quite usual on the NMF as seen on this photo mix - Gabreski's plane is in the red rectangular:

Good spot. Yes the a NMF finish being lighter and a more reflective is going to show up lighter on the underside. Though in that picture there seems to be direct light on the underside of the aircraft as you can see a shadow going across the gear bay door.

[Stevo_K]

Does anyone know where that picture of the Puny Pug came from?

I have a collection of photos from my grandfather in Italy and he has that exact same picture.  I'm wondering about it origins.