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lindsay1963

why are the manufacturers afraid of...

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So its more a matter of it not being financially worth it on the part of a manufacturer because of the amount of money they would need to charge per kit because there would not be enough demand to warrant the cost of supply?

Business 101. If it isn't going to turn a profit, don't do it.

Hence the ongoing flood of WW2 German stuff. There might be a hundred Bf-109's already done in plastic but if you produce another one, they will line up to buy it.

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I wonder then why Monogram made the B-36 and B-1B, or why Tamiya made the 32nd scale F-15s, we all own at least one of those in our stash and sometimes more than 2.

AMT made some pretty big and not so popular kits, as did Airfix in its time and many other manufacturers, Anigrand have made a reputation for producing large models, like its E-4 and C-17.

but I guess you guys are right, there is no market for a 35th scale MH-53E, so why would any of them bother.

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you know boys , if it was not for Warner Wings MH-47 conversion, the need for a CH-47D kit would have fallen by the way side. But it has for me created a new interest in both the CH-47A and CH-47D. I now own a couple. I would in fact even venture to say I would buy a 1/35 MH-53J/M or even MH-53E because it would be huge. and would make a nice statement at any model contest. So I say if we have any influence lets use it to create a need for the mighty 53 family. who's all with me !

Edited by ccrqw602002

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I think you also have to look at detail expectations. Even assuming gross size is similar between a 1/35 CH-53 and a 1/72 B-36, the 1/35 helo kit will have to be considerably more complex with a much higher parts count (expensive to produce). The old 1/32 kits were pretty sparse on details, but I don't think the current large scale aircraft market will accept the same level of detail as the builders in the 60s and 70s.

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totally agree with Aaron, a well-detailed state-of-the-art new tool of such a big helicopter is very expensive, even though made in China or somwhere else in the far east.

The companies are are very fussy about the marketing forecasts of their products. What they want is a return on investment asap and minimizing the risk of producing a flop product. This is simply not possible with a hight-price helicopter kit. We have to accept that helicopter scale modeling is a niche where turnover forecasts are difficult to make just because a company doesn't know which/how much fixed wing or AFV modeller/s will be attracted by the particular helicopter product. Moreover, product developers took their job with more personal idealism in earlier times. Today, they depend more or less completely to the decisions in the commercial departments of the company. As for Revell Germany, it takes at least 7 stages from the first suggestion for a possible new development to the decision that the product will finally be released. Almost very instance (from marketing, finance and distribution to controlling departments) have the right to refuse the suggestion or to intervene.The instruments of market forecasts are somewhat different than decades ago and I personally assume that surprising, exotic subjects will become less. But what to observe is the intention of companies to fill gaps or replace old kits in different scales. E.g. see Italeri with their Wessex' and H-21 (cheaper bcz basically upscales of existing 1:72 kits), Gallery Models/MRC with the H-34, Kitty Hawks new helos or MPMs new AH-1G etc. Nevertheless, large scale new developments are something different due to the high investments to be made.

Licensing is a stong issue as well. Revell of Germany product developers tell that this makes now 25% of their labor time. And some companies are very niggling about that. I was told once, that Sikorsky even gave out written warnings for ebay offers that used the term Sikorsky somewhere. Revell's recent CH-53 releases are just named "CH-53 Heavy Transport Helicopter" and the recent Revell-Reboxing of Italeri's carries only the title "AB212 (without hyphen)/UH-1N" although there is no license built Agusta decal option/version included. AFAIK, military designations like "UH-1H" cannot be trademarked, but "Huey" and "Bell" can - not sure for "Iroqouis". Licensing was also the reason why their announced MD-520N in 1:72 was dropped from the new items list. Especially for civil products, it can be sometimes even more difficult if there is no un-trademarked military model designation. Furthermore, often there is not only the aircraft manufacturer who wants to have licensing fees. Besides them, there are also the operators like Airlines and other companies. Even the German ADAC Air Rescue tolerates only offizially licensed products for their EMS helos disregarding the PR effect of such model kits. (This also accounts for small-scale custom decal production as experienced recently)

And finally, there are some much more important and products very likely to be sucessful products to be realized. Some were already mentioned. The market defenitely needs a correct UH-1D/H/V in ANY scale. Mi-8 in 1:48 is another thing. Another example is the lack of a decent Écureuil/ Fennec although there are so many around also with the military. Regarding (mostly) civil-only use helos like Bell 214 (ST), Bell 222, S-76, Bell 429, A-109, Bell 407 etc. I see no chance for any realization from a large-scale manufacturer unless there is any potential military operator which owns large numbers. Revell may be a little exception in this respect but they do only bcz their product policy it to offer not only military products an any genre of their product range to give it also a civil colouring and to refuse the accusation to produce only "war toys" (yeah, there is always a discussion about that in Germany).

Edited by troschi

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Wasn't there a guy called William Beazley representing a company called "Nightflight Models" (or some such) that was taking deposits for a 1/35 MH-53J?, I recall something of that nature some years back..

Edited by Snakecharmer

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Hi Guys

a little jump in the past, in 2003

My link

interesting in todays eyes.

We did not exchange about that, but the big thing that avoid a cotage industry to make this model is that they will take hundreds of hours doing the research and drawing job, and a mainstream manufacturer may just copy it.

Norbert

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Vy Russkii norbert?

Я не русский I'm german, living in France

Norbert

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Other topic in 2010

My link

I think interest in this helicopter exist, I may (or momebody else) start a topic on Armorama just to see the feedback...

last time I showed an 1/35 helicopter on Armorama, I got much more views and feedback than here.

So the main market may be AFV guys

ah, found one on armorama back in 2003, there was not so much reactions...but in 2003, there were also less visitors...

My link

just look at the feedback with the today's annoncement of a 1/35 Horsa glider

Norbert

Edited by norbert

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Thanks for your post, Felix. It was an interesting read.

One company that could release a new helicopter kit and be relatively sure that it will be a commercial success is Airfix. Especially this side of the pond, everything they have released in recent times seems to be a resounding success but again maybe this is down to choosing subjects like the Spitfire, P-51 and BF109. If they did release something like an accurate UH-1D/H in 1/72, 1/32 or even 1/24, it'd sell well. It is more than likely that they will concentrate on British helicopters so maybe they will release a new tool Westland Scout, Wasp or even the Bristol Belvedere.

Speaking of the H-53, will we be likely to see a kit of the new CH-53K some time in the future, taking into account licencing issues?

LD.

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Im glad I started this topic getting some great responses,I can see point of this being an expensive kit to produce but with todays new technology (3-D printers) and mind you im no tech wizard but surely there must be someway to do this kit and be affordable. Just think of the amazing dioramas you could make. just out of curiosity what would a 1/35 MH-53E measure out to.

I think this topic should be put to the manufactures for a response, pherhaps the forum mods should consider a forum where we can ask question to the manufactuers if they are willing to participate, would be great feed back for both sides.

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you know boys , if it was not for Warner Wings MH-47 conversion, the need for a CH-47D kit would have fallen by the way side. But it has for me created a new interest in both the CH-47A and CH-47D. I now own a couple. I would in fact even venture to say I would buy a 1/35 MH-53J/M or even MH-53E because it would be huge. and would make a nice statement at any model contest. So I say if we have any influence lets use it to create a need for the mighty 53 family. who's all with me !

Im the same.

I own several 72nd HH/MH-53 kits, I own a few of the 48th HH-53C and GS kits made by Revell.

I would go to 35th for a few different version of the H-53 too

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I'm all for more helicopter kits, but in 1/35 the CH-53 would be way too big for me, I think that I'd probbaly pass on it. If I did I would have to go with folded blades. Even the 1/35 H-60 series is reaching my limit for space, the H-47 way too massive I think in 1/35 and the H-53 would be over the top (at least with blades out). The 1/48 version of the CH-53 is plenty big of a space hog. I can't imagine there is that really much of a market for one in 1/35, especially as others said there are other more "popular" choices in the more predominant scales. It would be great to see in a massive diorama, but how many would really buy/build one in the end? Although I prefer the CH-53E variant, I'd take a USAF MH-53 in 1/48 anyday over a larger 1/35 CH-53E. Much rather see smaller helos in 1/35 first, like the AH-1G and good UH-1 series. Or God forbid too Korean era helicopters.

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I'm all for more helicopter kits, but in 1/35 the CH-53 would be way too big for me, I think that I'd probbaly pass on it. If I did I would have to go with folded blades. Even the 1/35 H-60 series is reaching my limit for space, the H-47 way too massive I think in 1/35 and the H-53 would be over the top (at least with blades out). The 1/48 version of the CH-53 is plenty big of a space hog. I can't imagine there is that really much of a market for one in 1/35, especially as others said there are other more "popular" choices in the more predominant scales. It would be great to see in a massive diorama, but how many would really buy/build one in the end? Although I prefer the CH-53E variant, I'd take a USAF MH-53 in 1/48 anyday over a larger 1/35 CH-53E. Much rather see smaller helos in 1/35 first, like the AH-1G and good UH-1 series. Or God forbid too Korean era helicopters.

Good point. For me (and I suspect many / most modelers), space is a major issue. My 1/35th Mil-8 takes up way to much space on my display shelf, and I had to remove one of the rotor blades to get it to fit at all.

Can't imagine many guys have room for such large kits.

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I have the Zvezda Mi-26 which remains unbuilt mostly due to it's massive size (18" rotor dia, 22" long). A 1/35 CH-53E would be nearly half again this size (27" rotor dia, 34" long). I imagine it could be used for some amazing dioramas, but wow, what a display case it would require.

I was just wondering about the CH-53K. As there are a couple of H-53s in 1/72 I'm hoping we will get a kit of this, but based on the modifications I think it is going to require a heavily modified kit or more likely a completely new kit.

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Isn't the CH-53 a Sikorsky? If they can allow a 53, then they can allow a new UH-60!!!

jM2CW!

Tim

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I'm all for more helicopter kits, but in 1/35 the CH-53 would be way too big for me, I think that I'd probbaly pass on it. If I did I would have to go with folded blades. Even the 1/35 H-60 series is reaching my limit for space, the H-47 way too massive I think in 1/35 and the H-53 would be over the top (at least with blades out). The 1/48 version of the CH-53 is plenty big of a space hog. I can't imagine there is that really much of a market for one in 1/35, especially as others said there are other more "popular" choices in the more predominant scales. It would be great to see in a massive diorama, but how many would really buy/build one in the end? Although I prefer the CH-53E variant, I'd take a USAF MH-53 in 1/48 anyday over a larger 1/35 CH-53E. Much rather see smaller helos in 1/35 first, like the AH-1G and good UH-1 series. Or God forbid too Korean era helicopters.

And yet if it could be built as an HH-53C or MH-53J Pave Low I would buy it several times over.

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Would a 35th CH-53E be a lot larger than a 48th B-1B, or 72nd B-36?

It would be about the same length as the 1/48th B-1. Take a helo that's 99' long, 79' wide, and 28' tall with rotors turning, or 60' 6" long, 26' wide, and 18' feet tall when folded up, and divide that by 32 or 35. Either way, what you get is a big honkin' helo model that will need a lot of room on a shelf or desk.

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On 7/5/2014 at 4:17 AM, Loach Driver said:

Helicopters are a niche subject and probably make up a very small portion of any manufacturer's overall sales.

I know this is an old post, but I find it very relevant today. I would love to get my hands on the H-53 in 35th, but I also know that I am a minority in the modeling world, which is a shame.

 

While I love the new tech in the world of air power, it's still not as interesting as the piston planes of yesteryear. Even more, the helicopter is an extraordinary machine in every form in my eyes, and they make for a much richer model in the hands of someone with talent. They are machines to me that should not fly, but they somehow do. They move forward even though they don't have a pusher/puller propeller in the classic sense, most have the aerodynamics of first generation cell phones. I have come to realize that the helicopter fuselage doesn't actually fly at all, there is almost no lift surface on them, and obviously when moving slow or hovering, the fuselage plays even less of a role in flight. The truth is, the only part of the helicopter that flies, are the main rotors, and they literally drag the fuselage into the air.

 

Even though I am new to model building, I am fast becoming a "rotor head", a love and appreciation I received in my first Blackhawk ride in the Army. From that point onward, I was hooked. Post military, it's still my favorite subject about my time in the Army, before and above all the other cool toys and tech we used.

 

Anyway, I do hope that one of these manufacturers comes out with a 35th scale H-53, I for sure would buy one. I am also in the process of egging Floyd on about Kitty Hawk making a proper MH-47, since he is the only person I know that has their ear. I would recommend anyone and everyone who loves helicopters and SOAR specifically, send a message and a wink to Kitty Hawk about a new full line of 35th helo's, as they are a diorama dream as well as being beautiful all by themselves.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony

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On 7/4/2014 at 11:34 AM, lindsay1963 said:

Heres a question to the manufacturers of model kits, why are you afraid of making the CH-53E or the MH-53E in 1/35 scale? These airecraft have been around for quite some time but nobody has evere released in this scale.Surely there would be a market out there for such a kit given all the 1/35 scale military kits out there.

Because there is a pretty small market for 1/35 helos in general and something as massive as this, that was only operated by one country, would probably have very limited sales.  

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1 hour ago, 11bee said:

Because there is a pretty small market for 1/35 helos in general and something as massive as this, that was only operated by one country, would probably have very limited sales.  

 

I don’t disagree with the sentiment, however two countries used the H-53. JMSDF also uses the Echo model and 5 other counties if you include the Delta model (Germany, Austria, Israel, Mexico and Iran).

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25 minutes ago, Tank said:

 

I don’t disagree with the sentiment, however two countries used the H-53. JMSDF also uses the Echo model and 5 other counties if you include the Delta model (Germany, Austria, Israel, Mexico and Iran).

Forgot about Japan.    Honestly the thing would just be a beast to display once done.    That being said, I’d be much more excited about the delta, especially as a Vietnam era Super Jolly or a Pave Low.     Still think it’s not going to sell well though. 😞.  

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5 hours ago, 11bee said:

  Still think it’s not going to sell well though. 😞.  

I think they would sell better than people think. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that there is a shift towards 35th anyway. With armor making the lions share of kits in that scale, it seems like an awakening among modelers, that allow them to include air assets into their dioramas as well. Will it every sell like the M1 Abrams? Probably not. But my bet is that they would have little trouble selling every one, especially if they make sure to include the many options above, if done on a limited basis.

 

The big scale seems to be doing just fine, and this is a good "between" scale, where it seems armor and rotory can meet. It's strange that the scale is limited to ground vehicles, makes sense to broaden the appeal for the scale by adding helicopters IMHO anyway. Maybe that is just the hopeful optimist in me.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony

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8 hours ago, 11bee said:

Forgot about Japan.    Honestly the thing would just be a beast to display once done.    That being said, I’d be much more excited about the delta, especially as a Vietnam era Super Jolly or a Pave Low.     Still think it’s not going to sell well though. 😞.  

 

Manufactures feel the same way which is why we haven’t seen it yet. Guns sell, cargo birds

no matter how much you dress them up don’t. Trumpeter tried with the Hind and 47, pretty sure if the sells where there they would have branched out.

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3 hours ago, Stalker6recon said:

I think they would sell better than people think. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that there is a shift towards 35th anyway. With armor making the lions share of kits in that scale, it seems like an awakening among modelers, that allow them to include air assets into their dioramas as well. Will it every sell like the M1 Abrams? Probably not. But my bet is that they would have little trouble selling every one, especially if they make sure to include the many options above, if done on a limited basis.

 

The big scale seems to be doing just fine, and this is a good "between" scale, where it seems armor and rotory can meet. It's strange that the scale is limited to ground vehicles, makes sense to broaden the appeal for the scale by adding helicopters IMHO anyway. Maybe that is just the hopeful optimist in me.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony

 

A 53E rotor span is over 2’ in 1/35 scale, even if you fold up the main rotors, the fuselage length is close to 3’. The 53D rotor span is at 2’. In a basic diorama, you looking at lot of space to display. 

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