aeronut66 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 My understanding is that there is a "bent" (as opposed to straight) refueling probe on the A-4 Skyhawk starting with the A-4F. From pictures, it seems that not all A-4Fs had it. Does anyone know when (i.e. year) the bent probe began to be fitted? Was it a retrofit or installed on the factory line in the middle of the A-4F production run? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mumbles Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) My understanding is that there is a "bent" (as opposed to straight) refueling probe on the A-4 Skyhawk starting with the A-4F. From pictures, it seems that not all A-4Fs had it. Does anyone know when (i.e. year) the bent probe began to be fitted? Was it a retrofit or installed on the factory line in the middle of the A-4F production run? I think it might be a retro-fit, based on the NZ K models (which were based on the F). These were built in 1969 (after F production for the USN had ended) with straight probes, and weren't refitted with bent ones until 1973. I also understand the bent probe was only introduced as standard on the A-4M in 1970. Edited July 29, 2014 by Mumbles Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tailspin Turtle Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 My understanding is that there is a "bent" (as opposed to straight) refueling probe on the A-4 Skyhawk starting with the A-4F. From pictures, it seems that not all A-4Fs had it. Does anyone know when (i.e. year) the bent probe began to be fitted? Was it a retrofit or installed on the factory line in the middle of the A-4F production run? The bent probe wasn't qualified until September 1969. A-4F production ended in 1968, so none of them had it originally. It was developed to eliminate interference with a threat-radar identification and location system that replaced the radar in the nose of Iron Hand-capable A-4s. However, it also proved to be the solution to fuel-ingestion incidents during inflight refueling of J52-powered Scooters so it was retrofitted to Es and Fs and became the production standard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 A side benefit of that bent probe to clear the TIAS on the nose was that hot refueling on the ground through the probe got better. That bent probe curtailed the engine surges that occurred when the fuel hose was uncoupled from the probe fitting, causing a spray of kerosene. Sometimes, even with the bent probe, the engine would still suck in the fuel vapor cloud, but it didn't happen as often. With the straight probe, it was guaranteed every time there was fuel released. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aeronut66 Posted July 29, 2014 Author Share Posted July 29, 2014 Thanks to you and all the other replies! The bent probe wasn't qualified until September 1969. A-4F production ended in 1968, so none of them had it originally. It was developed to eliminate interference with a threat-radar identification and location system that replaced the radar in the nose of Iron Hand-capable A-4s. However, it also proved to be the solution to fuel-ingestion incidents during inflight refueling of J52-powered Scooters so it was retrofitted to Es and Fs and became the production standard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redcorvette Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 A side benefit of that bent probe to clear the TIAS on the nose was that hot refueling on the ground through the probe got better. That bent probe curtailed the engine surges that occurred when the fuel hose was uncoupled from the probe fitting, causing a spray of kerosene. Sometimes, even with the bent probe, the engine would still suck in the fuel vapor cloud, but it didn't happen as often. With the straight probe, it was guaranteed every time there was fuel released. With the straight probe the pilot would kick in a little right rudder when backing out of the basket so the resulting yaw would hopefully direct the fuel spray outboard of the intake. Didn't always work. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 haha, Mark, and it almost never worked on the ground. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 So, I plan on building 3 A-4Fs from VA-55, VA-164 & VA-212 aboard the USS Hancock circa 1972. Did they have the bent probe at this time? I cannot clearly discern form my available photos. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 This shows some didn't and some did: http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv19-72/169.htm click on the WestPac Cruise 1972 link at the bottom to look thru other pics. Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Also check here for VA-55: http://www.seaforces.org/usnair/VA/Attack-Squadron-55.htm Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Dutch said: So, I plan on building 3 A-4Fs from VA-55, VA-164 & VA-212 aboard the USS Hancock circa 1972. Did they have the bent probe at this time? I cannot clearly discern form my available photos. partial VA-55 list: 501 bent 502 straight 503 straight 505 bent 510 straight 514 bent partial VA-212 list: 301 straight 302 straight 305 straight 306 straight 310 straight 312 straight 314 straight 316 straight Edited January 13, 2017 by ziggyfoos Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) ziggyfoos, Thank you. So I decided to do some web research. CVW-21 1972 Westpac cruise occurred during the period 01/07/72 - 10/03/72 aboard the USS Hancock CVA-19. I started at the obvious place: the A-4 Skyhawk Association website. Here is what I could glean from their website (not all photo links are available, but BuNo list is a big plus). A-4F models I intend to model are bold and highlighted or colored: VA-212 list: 300 154997 301 155045 straight 302 154990 straight 303 155030? 304 155021 05 155039 straight 306 straight 307 154975 308 skipped 309 skipped 310 straight 311 155047 312 154972(a) / 154992(b) straight 313 155020 314 straight 315 316 154188 straight 317 o Douglas A-4F Skyhawk § 154195 c/n 13652 § 12 Nov 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 25 Jan 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 154196 c/n 13653 § 20 Dec 1971 - VA-212 - USS Hancock § 05 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA § 154970 c/n 13786 § 05 Jun 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 28 Oct 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA § 154972 c/n 13788 NP312(a) § 30 Dec 1971 - VA-212 - USS Hancock § 10 Jul 1972 - Stricken - 1SO § 154975 c/n 13791 NP307 § 28 Apr 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 02 May 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 154990 c/n 13806 NP302 § 04 May 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 16 Mar 1972 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 154992 c/n 13808 NP312(b) § 29 Apr 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 05 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA § 154997 c/n 13813 NP300 § 08 Dec 1967 - VA-212 - USS Bon Homme Richard § 13 Feb 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 155012 c/n 13828 § 14 Jun 1968 - VA-212 - USS Bon Homme Richard § 25 Apr 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 155020 c/n 13836 NP313 § 14 Jun 1968 - VA-212 - USS Bon Homme Richard § 12 Mar 1973 - Stricken - 1SO § 155021 c/n 13837 NP304 § 14 Jun 1968 - VA-212 - USS Bon Homme Richard § 06 Sep 1972 - Stricken - 1S § 155039 c/n 13855 NP305 § 09 Jun 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 05 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA § 155043 c/n 13859 NP310 § 30 Apr 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 06 Feb 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 155045 c/n 13861 NP301 § 29 Apr 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 25 May 1972 - Stricken - 1S0 § 155047 c/n 13863 NP311 § 30 Jul 1969 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 03 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL Aircraft added during cruise: § 154188 c/n 13645 NP316 § 22 Jul 1972 - VA-212 - USS Hancock § 26 Feb 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ Edited January 13, 2017 by Dutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) VA-164 list: 400 155026 401 155018 “Lady Jesse” bent (circa 1972) 402 154210 403 154998 404 155066 405 406 155034 407 15025? 408 skipped 409 skipped 410 411 154193? 412 413 154971? 414 155027 415 155028? 416 TA-4F 153491 / 154622? straight 417 o Douglas A-4F Skyhawk § 154181 c/n 13638 § 24 Feb 1971 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 28 Mar 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 154210 c/n 13667 NP402 § 05 May 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 23 Feb 1973 - VA-55 - USS Hancock § 154212 c/n 13669 § 26 Dec 1971 - VA-164 - USS Hancock § 30 Jan 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 154998 c/n 13814 NP403 § 06 May 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 18 Oct 1973 - NARF - NAS Norfolk, VA § 155007 c/n 13823 § 05 May 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 05 Jul 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ § 155017 c/n 13833 § 07 Oct 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 01 Mar 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ § 155018 c/n 13834 NP401 “Lady Jesse” circa 1972 § 26 Jun 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 13 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA § 155022 c/n 13838 § 28 Jul 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 01 Dec 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL § 155024 c/n 13840 § 20 Jun 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Fallon, NV § 15 Sep 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL § 155025 c/n 13841 NP407? § 14 Jun 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 13 Feb 1974 - VX-5 - NAF China Lake, CA § 155026 c/n 13842 NP400 § 01 Aug 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 20 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA § 155027 c/n 13843 NP414 § 01 Aug 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 20 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA § 155034 c/n 13850 NP406 § 17 Jun 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Fallon, NV § 10 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL § 155066 c/n 13882 NP404 § 05 May 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 06 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA § 155067 c/n 13883 § 19 Jun 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA § 16 Feb 1973 - VA-55 - USS Hancock · Additional aircraft added mid cruise: § 154188 c/n 13645 § 21 Jun 1972 - VA-164 - USS Hancock § 22 Jul 1972 - VA-212 - USS Hancock o Douglas TA-4F Skyhawk August 8, 1972: The Ghost Riders were assigned two TA-4F Skyhawk. BuNos 154325 and 153491 were transferred from the Marines, having previously been used for the "Playboy" FAC misson in SEPT 1970. These two "T Birds" were used to "paint" the target with a hand-held laser for A-4Fs that were equipped with the"Laser Spot Tracker" in their noses. This provided the capability to launch and guide laser-guided bombs to a target. The Navy's hand-held laser designator was put in the hands of the person occupying the 2nd seat of the TA-4F. 153491 c/n 13557 NP416 03 Aug 1972 - VA-164 - USS Hancock 18 Sep 1972 - H&MS-12 - MCAS Iwakuni, Japan 154325 c/n 13713 02 Aug 1972 - VA-164 - USS Hancock 18 Sep 1972 - H&MS-12 - MCAS Iwakuni, Japan Edited January 13, 2017 by Dutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) VA-55 list: 500 155010 501 155046 bent 502 154173 / 154205 straight 503 straight 504 505 154989 bent 506 154996 507 508 skipped 509 skipped 510 straight 511 155000 512 155048 513 155014 514 154989 bent 515 155009 straight? 516 155013 straight Douglas A-4F Skyhawk 154173 c/n 13630 NP-502 28 Dec 1971 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 03 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA 154194 c/n 13651 11 Jun 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA 20 Oct 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA 154197 c/n 13654 NP502(a) 27 May 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA 27 May 1972 - Stricken - 1S0 154200 c/n 13657 04 May 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA 05 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA 154205 c/n 13662 NP502(b) straight 20 May 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA 08 Mar 1972 - Stricken - 1S0 154989 c/n 13805 NP505 30 Apr 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA 07 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL 154996 c/n 13812 NP506 05 Apr 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA 20 Oct 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA 155008 c/n 13824 12 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 05 Jul 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ 155009 c/n 13825 NP515 10 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 16 Feb 1973 - VA-212 - USS Hancock 155010 c/n 13826 NP500 23 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 05 Jul 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ 155013 c/n 13829 NP516 12 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 17 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL 155014 c/n 13830 NP513 24 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 09 Apr 1973 - NARF - NAS Alameda, CA 155036 c/n 13852 01 May 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 05 Apr 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ 155046 c/n 13862 NP501 07 May 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA 11 Jul 1972 - Stricken - 1S0 155048 c/n 13864 NP512 08 Aug 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA 27 May 1972 - Stricken - 1S0 · Additional aircraft added mid cruise: 154183 c/n 13640 22 Jun 1972 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 04 May 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA 154202 c/n 13659 21 Jun 1972 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 12 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL 155058 c/n 13874 22 Jun 1972 - VA-55 - USS Hancock 10 Apr 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ Edited January 13, 2017 by Dutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I didn't realize you were wanting bunos too. Check out here too, don't take it as gospel though without other reference but overall it's good. http://www.millionmonkeytheater.com/A4D.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 By the way there will be no _08 and _09 modex aircraft in your listings. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 And blatant plug for VA-55 decals.... http://aoadecals.com/48009/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 28 minutes ago, ziggyfoos said: By the way there will be no _08 and _09 modex aircraft in your listings. Porqoui? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 35 minutes ago, ziggyfoos said: I didn't realize you were wanting bunos too. Check out here too, don't take it as gospel though without other reference but overall it's good. http://www.millionmonkeytheater.com/A4D.html Thanks. I know about this site but cannot access it from work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Dutch said: Porqoui? I had to Google that one! Navy had switched number system to be based on 8 in the mid 60s, so no more 8 and 9, so would go x00 to x07, then x10 and up. Edited January 13, 2017 by ziggyfoos Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ant Phillips Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 23 minutes ago, Dutch said: Porqoui? Take a look here too: http://www.joebaugher.com/navy_serials/navyserials.html Has some good background info on the Bu. No. and Modex systems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) Thanks Ant Phillips: According to Joe Baugher: " According to one of my sources, the digits in the side numbers beyond the first one are in octal format (the digits going from 1 to 7, then from 10 to 17, 20 to 27, etc), with digits 8 or 9 never being used. This was supposedly done because maintenance actions were originally recorded on punched cards and had to be processed through IBM electronic accounting machines and computers which could only handle octal numbers. Curiously, the side numbers remain in octal format to this day even though computer systems have since been upgraded many times. However, I have seen side numbers beyond the first digit that do indeed have an 8 or a 9, so this restriction must not have been universal. " Well I would say we got past the 2 bit early computer systems to 8 bit and 16-bit, 32-bit, 64 but, etc.... thereby allowing the possible numbers to use all ten ordinal numerals instead of just eight, or 0 - 7. A possible reason for not changing may have been simply the bureaucratic inertia behind the original system and the intransigence on the part of the Navy to change. To which I say: "Ahso, desuka!" Edited January 13, 2017 by Dutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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