Jump to content

A-4 Skyhawk bent refueling probe


Recommended Posts

My understanding is that there is a "bent" (as opposed to straight) refueling probe on the A-4 Skyhawk starting with the A-4F. From pictures, it seems that not all A-4Fs had it. Does anyone know when (i.e. year) the bent probe began to be fitted? Was it a retrofit or installed on the factory line in the middle of the A-4F production run?

Link to post
Share on other sites

My understanding is that there is a "bent" (as opposed to straight) refueling probe on the A-4 Skyhawk starting with the A-4F. From pictures, it seems that not all A-4Fs had it. Does anyone know when (i.e. year) the bent probe began to be fitted? Was it a retrofit or installed on the factory line in the middle of the A-4F production run?

I think it might be a retro-fit, based on the NZ K models (which were based on the F). These were built in 1969 (after F production for the USN had ended) with straight probes, and weren't refitted with bent ones until 1973. I also understand the bent probe was only introduced as standard on the A-4M in 1970.

Edited by Mumbles
Link to post
Share on other sites

My understanding is that there is a "bent" (as opposed to straight) refueling probe on the A-4 Skyhawk starting with the A-4F. From pictures, it seems that not all A-4Fs had it. Does anyone know when (i.e. year) the bent probe began to be fitted? Was it a retrofit or installed on the factory line in the middle of the A-4F production run?

The bent probe wasn't qualified until September 1969. A-4F production ended in 1968, so none of them had it originally. It was developed to eliminate interference with a threat-radar identification and location system that replaced the radar in the nose of Iron Hand-capable A-4s. However, it also proved to be the solution to fuel-ingestion incidents during inflight refueling of J52-powered Scooters so it was retrofitted to Es and Fs and became the production standard.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A side benefit of that bent probe to clear the TIAS on the nose was that hot refueling on the ground through the probe got better.

That bent probe curtailed the engine surges that occurred when the fuel hose was uncoupled from the probe fitting, causing a spray of kerosene. Sometimes, even with the bent probe, the engine would still suck in the fuel vapor cloud, but it didn't happen as often. With the straight probe, it was guaranteed every time there was fuel released.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to you and all the other replies!

The bent probe wasn't qualified until September 1969. A-4F production ended in 1968, so none of them had it originally. It was developed to eliminate interference with a threat-radar identification and location system that replaced the radar in the nose of Iron Hand-capable A-4s. However, it also proved to be the solution to fuel-ingestion incidents during inflight refueling of J52-powered Scooters so it was retrofitted to Es and Fs and became the production standard.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A side benefit of that bent probe to clear the TIAS on the nose was that hot refueling on the ground through the probe got better.

That bent probe curtailed the engine surges that occurred when the fuel hose was uncoupled from the probe fitting, causing a spray of kerosene. Sometimes, even with the bent probe, the engine would still suck in the fuel vapor cloud, but it didn't happen as often. With the straight probe, it was guaranteed every time there was fuel released.

With the straight probe the pilot would kick in a little right rudder when backing out of the basket so the resulting yaw would hopefully direct the fuel spray outboard of the intake. Didn't always work.

Mark

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 years later...
8 hours ago, Dutch said:

So, I plan on building 3 A-4Fs from VA-55, VA-164 & VA-212 aboard the USS Hancock circa 1972.  Did they have the bent probe at this time?  I cannot clearly discern form my available photos.

 

partial VA-55 list:

501 bent

502 straight

503 straight

505 bent

510 straight

514 bent

 

partial VA-212 list:

301 straight

302 straight

305 straight

306 straight

310 straight

312 straight

314 straight

316 straight

 

Edited by ziggyfoos
Link to post
Share on other sites

ziggyfoos, 

 

Thank you.  So I decided to do some web research.  CVW-21 1972 Westpac cruise occurred during the period 01/07/72 - 10/03/72 aboard the USS Hancock CVA-19.  I started at the obvious place: the A-4 Skyhawk Association website.  Here is what I could glean from their website (not all photo links are available, but BuNo list is a big plus). A-4F models I intend to model are bold and highlighted or colored:

 

VA-212 list:

300 154997

301 155045 straight

302 154990 straight

303 155030?

304 155021

05 155039 straight

306 straight

307 154975

308 skipped

309 skipped

310 straight

311 155047

312 154972(a) / 154992(b) straight

313 155020

314 straight

315

316 154188 straight

317

 

o    Douglas A-4F Skyhawk

§  154195 c/n 13652

§  12 Nov 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  25 Jan 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  154196 c/n 13653

§  20 Dec 1971 - VA-212 - USS Hancock

§  05 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA

§  154970 c/n 13786

§  05 Jun 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  28 Oct 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA

§  154972 c/n 13788 NP312(a)

§  30 Dec 1971 - VA-212 - USS Hancock

§  10 Jul 1972 - Stricken - 1SO

§  154975 c/n 13791 NP307

§  28 Apr 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  02 May 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  154990 c/n 13806 NP302

§  04 May 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  16 Mar 1972 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  154992 c/n 13808 NP312(b)

§  29 Apr 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  05 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA

§  154997 c/n 13813 NP300

§  08 Dec 1967 - VA-212 - USS Bon Homme Richard

§  13 Feb 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  155012 c/n 13828

§  14 Jun 1968 - VA-212 - USS Bon Homme Richard

§  25 Apr 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  155020 c/n 13836 NP313

§  14 Jun 1968 - VA-212 - USS Bon Homme Richard

§  12 Mar 1973 - Stricken - 1SO

§  155021 c/n 13837 NP304

§  14 Jun 1968 - VA-212 - USS Bon Homme Richard

§  06 Sep 1972 - Stricken - 1S

§  155039 c/n 13855 NP305

§  09 Jun 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  05 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA

§  155043 c/n 13859 NP310

§  30 Apr 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  06 Feb 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  155045 c/n 13861 NP301

§  29 Apr 1970 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  25 May 1972 - Stricken - 1S0

§  155047 c/n 13863 NP311

§  30 Jul 1969 - VA-212 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  03 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL

Aircraft added during cruise:

§  154188 c/n 13645 NP316

§  22 Jul 1972 - VA-212 - USS Hancock

§  26 Feb 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ

Edited by Dutch
Link to post
Share on other sites

VA-164 list:

 

 

400 155026

401 155018 “Lady Jesse” bent (circa 1972)

402 154210

403 154998

404 155066

405

406 155034

407 15025?

408 skipped

 

409 skipped

 

410

411 154193?

412

413 154971?

414 155027

415 155028?

416 TA-4F 153491 / 154622? straight

417

 

 

 

 

o    Douglas A-4F Skyhawk

§  154181 c/n 13638

§  24 Feb 1971 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  28 Mar 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  154210 c/n 13667 NP402

§  05 May 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  23 Feb 1973 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

§  154212 c/n 13669

§  26 Dec 1971 - VA-164 - USS Hancock

§  30 Jan 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  154998 c/n 13814 NP403

§  06 May 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  18 Oct 1973 - NARF - NAS Norfolk, VA

§  155007 c/n 13823

§  05 May 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  05 Jul 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ

§  155017 c/n 13833

§  07 Oct 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  01 Mar 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ

§  155018 c/n 13834 NP401 “Lady Jesse” circa 1972

 

§  26 Jun 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

 

§  13 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA

 

§  155022 c/n 13838

§  28 Jul 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  01 Dec 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL

§  155024 c/n 13840

§  20 Jun 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Fallon, NV

§  15 Sep 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL

§  155025 c/n 13841 NP407?

§  14 Jun 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  13 Feb 1974 - VX-5 - NAF China Lake, CA

§  155026 c/n 13842 NP400

§  01 Aug 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  20 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA

§  155027 c/n 13843 NP414

§  01 Aug 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  20 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA

§  155034 c/n 13850 NP406

§  17 Jun 1969 - VA-164 - NAS Fallon, NV

§  10 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL

§  155066 c/n 13882 NP404

§  05 May 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  06 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA

§  155067 c/n 13883

§  19 Jun 1970 - VA-164 - NAS Lemoore, CA

§  16 Feb 1973 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

 

 

·         Additional aircraft added mid cruise:

 

 

§  154188 c/n 13645

§  21 Jun 1972 - VA-164 - USS Hancock

§  22 Jul 1972 - VA-212 - USS Hancock

 

 

o    Douglas TA-4F Skyhawk

 

 

  • August 8, 1972:
    The Ghost Riders were assigned two TA-4F Skyhawk. BuNos 154325 and 153491 were transferred from the Marines, having previously been used for the "Playboy" FAC misson in SEPT 1970. These two "T Birds" were used to "paint" the target with a hand-held laser for A-4Fs that were equipped with the"Laser Spot Tracker" in their noses. This provided the capability to launch and guide laser-guided bombs to a target. The Navy's hand-held laser designator was put in the hands of the person occupying the 2nd seat of the TA-4F.

 

 

    • 153491 c/n 13557 NP416
      • 03 Aug 1972 - VA-164 - USS Hancock
      • 18 Sep 1972 - H&MS-12 - MCAS Iwakuni, Japan
    • 154325 c/n 13713
      • 02 Aug 1972 - VA-164 - USS Hancock
      • 18 Sep 1972 - H&MS-12 - MCAS Iwakuni, Japan
Edited by Dutch
Link to post
Share on other sites

VA-55 list:

 

500 155010

501 155046 bent

502 154173 / 154205 straight

503 straight

504

505 154989 bent

506 154996

507

508 skipped

509 skipped

510 straight

511 155000

512 155048

513 155014

514 154989 bent

515 155009 straight?

516 155013 straight

 

  • Douglas A-4F Skyhawk

    • 154173 c/n 13630 NP-502

      • 28 Dec 1971 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 03 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA

    • 154194 c/n 13651

      • 11 Jun 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA

      • 20 Oct 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA

    • 154197 c/n 13654 NP502(a)

      • 27 May 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA

      • 27 May 1972 - Stricken - 1S0

    • 154200 c/n 13657

      • 04 May 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA

      • 05 Nov 1975 - MARTD - MCAS El Toro, CA

    • 154205 c/n 13662 NP502(b) straight

      • 20 May 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA

      • 08 Mar 1972 - Stricken - 1S0

    • 154989 c/n 13805 NP505

      • 30 Apr 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA

      • 07 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL

    • 154996 c/n 13812 NP506

      • 05 Apr 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA

      • 20 Oct 1975 - MARTD - NAS Alameda, CA

    • 155008 c/n 13824

      • 12 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 05 Jul 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ

    • 155009 c/n 13825 NP515

      • 10 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 16 Feb 1973 - VA-212 - USS Hancock

    • 155010 c/n 13826 NP500

      • 23 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 05 Jul 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ

    • 155013 c/n 13829 NP516

      • 12 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 17 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL

    • 155014 c/n 13830 NP513

      • 24 Jan 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 09 Apr 1973 - NARF - NAS Alameda, CA

    • 155036 c/n 13852

      • 01 May 1968 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 05 Apr 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ

    • 155046 c/n 13862 NP501

      • 07 May 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA

      • 11 Jul 1972 - Stricken - 1S0

    • 155048 c/n 13864 NP512

      • 08 Aug 1970 - VA-55 - NAS Lemoore, CA

      • 27 May 1972 - Stricken - 1S0

 

·         Additional aircraft added mid cruise:

    • 154183 c/n 13640

      • 22 Jun 1972 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 04 May 1973 - VA-127 - NAS Lemoore, CA

    • 154202 c/n 13659

      • 21 Jun 1972 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 12 Nov 1975 - MARTD - NAS Jacksonville, FL

    • 155058 c/n 13874

      • 22 Jun 1972 - VA-55 - USS Hancock

      • 10 Apr 1973 - VMA-223 - MCAS Yuma, AZ

Edited by Dutch
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Dutch said:

Porqoui?

I had to Google that one!

 

Navy had switched number system to be based on 8 in the mid 60s, so no more 8 and 9, so would go x00 to x07, then x10 and up. 

Edited by ziggyfoos
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Ant Phillips:  According to Joe Baugher:

" According to one of my sources, the digits in the side numbers beyond the first one are in octal format (the digits going from 1 to 7, then from 10 to 17, 20 to 27, etc), with digits 8 or 9 never being used. This was supposedly done because maintenance actions were originally recorded on punched cards and had to be processed through IBM electronic accounting machines and computers which could only handle octal numbers. Curiously, the side numbers remain in octal format to this day even though computer systems have since been upgraded many times. However, I have seen side numbers beyond the first digit that do indeed have an 8 or a 9, so this restriction must not have been universal. "   Well I would say we got past the 2 bit early computer systems to 8 bit and 16-bit, 32-bit, 64 but, etc.... thereby allowing the possible numbers to use all ten ordinal numerals instead of just eight, or 0 - 7.  A possible reason for not changing may have been simply the bureaucratic inertia behind the original system and the intransigence on the part of the Navy to change.  To which I say: "Ahso, desuka!"

Edited by Dutch
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...