Coastal Command's Aerial Adversaries

[Dakota Roo]

So, I got hold of the book Bloody Biscay by Chris Goss and he has made the Junkers Ju-88 C6 the centerpiece of the maritime V KG40 based at Bordeaux/Merignac. The 'heavy fighter' which inflicted so much damage upon the Coastal Command over the bay. It's all post Battle of Britain. The cited bomber of choice seems to be the Dornier Do-217 E-5, complete with the Henschel glide bomb, doing anti-maritime attacks. Fw-190 gets a mention, along with the usual seaplane contingent, a selection of medium bombers, and the Condors and Seeadlers. But the 'vicious beast' is the Ju-88 C-6.

I have the Ju-88 C-6 kit (Tamiya....yes!), and I have a Revell Do-17 Z-2 kit, and a Airfix Do-217 J nightfighter kit, but no Do-217-E kit...uh-oh, I'll have to pick up a Do-217 E kit. Darn, another Dornier. Italeri, I think, has this.

[Dakota Roo]

Hmmmm...interesting.

In checking a history on an item I have in my collection, the Letov S.328, I find that near the end of WWII, 5 of them were assigned to the Coastal Command. I got the kit because it was a decent looking floatplane.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Dakota Roo

[Dakota Roo]

In Goss' Bloody Biscay, he notes that in late 1943, replacement Ju-88 C-6 fighters started arriving with 'white' camouflage. Really a light blue and light gray combination of some kind, it looked 'white' at any distance at all. The pix in the book don't do it justice. Does anyone have any decent illustrations of this 'pattern'?

Edited September 14, 2014 by Dakota Roo

[dragonlance]

Hmmmm...interesting.

In checking a history on an item I have in my collection, the Letov S.328, I find that near the end of WWII, 5 of them were assigned to the Coastal Command. I got the kit because it was a decent looking floatplane.

The only two or three built float equipped Letov S.328 were used pre-WW2 as AA target tugs at Kumbor, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, where the Czechoslovaks had a training camp.

Vedran

PS

The Tamiya Ju-88C6 is reboxed Italeri kit

[Dakota Roo]

The only two or three built float equipped Letov S.328 were used pre-WW2 as AA target tugs at Kumbor, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, where the Czechoslovaks had a training camp.

Vedran

PS

The Tamiya Ju-88C6 is reboxed Italeri kit

LOL...Thanks.

A floatplane towing targets? Wouldn't that make getting the target in the air from the water surface difficult?

So, the Letov S.328 which were alloted to Coastal Command were wheeled varieties, then.

[agboak]

I don't know where you got the Letov from: not in CC anywhere, AFAIK.

A few tweaks: The Swordfish and Albacore were predominantly FAA, only being used by CC late in the war in the eastern Channel for anti-E-boat patrols. The Avenger was entirely FAA. I'd drop the He51 and FW56, only surviving as trainers at this time, and I'm not sure about the Ar95 - perhaps the He114 could also be considered? Ditto the Shark, and the Nomads were in South Africa as trainers. A whole range of Liberator marks were used by CC, but generally not the Mk.II (some did). The Gladiators should be the FAA's Sea Gladiators (ditto Sea Hurricanes) unless you are counting their use as Met aircraft, but they would only be carrying out local flights above their own airfields, and perhaps a range of other obsolete types could be considered for these duties? The Typhoon did not see service with CC or the FAA - the latter did at least have a brief loan of one, promptly crashing it.

There was a multi-part Warwick kit that permitted the making of any variant - a vacuform from Contrail.

For a full list of FAA types in this theatre, you should add the Roc, the Maryland, and the N3PB. The Fokker T8W saw brief use with CC. Boston/Havocs and Chesapeakes were only seen as trainers. I have my doubts about the Battle, but where is the Beaufighter?

The USS Wasp's Wildcats, Vindicators (and Devastators?) were based in Orkney during Operations Pedestal and Bowery: the USS Ranger did carry out a strike against a Norwegian target but don't know offhand what types she had - I suspect Wildcats and Dauntlesses. (Edit: Wiki adds Avengers.)

Floatplanes as target tugs: the drogues would be carried on board and paid out before the shooting began. They would then be dropped on an adjacent airfield (or and pre-arranged convenient piece of dry land, I assume).

Edited September 15, 2014 by agboak

[Dakota Roo]

I don't know where you got the Letov from: not in CC anywhere, AFAIK.

Somebody thinks so. They've been dabbling with the Letov S.328 article in Wikipedia. (And, yes, I am aware of the pitfalls of wiki.) I do note the use of the term "allegedly".

A few tweaks: The Swordfish and Albacore were predominantly FAA, only being used by CC late in the war in the eastern Channel for anti-E-boat patrols. The Avenger was entirely FAA. I'd drop the He51 and FW56, only surviving as trainers at this time, and I'm not sure about the Ar95 - perhaps the He114 could also be considered? Ditto the Shark, and the Nomads were in South Africa as trainers. A whole range of Liberator marks were used by CC, but generally not the Mk.II (some did). The Gladiators should be the FAA's Sea Gladiators (ditto Sea Hurricanes) unless you are counting their use as Met aircraft, but they would only be carrying out local flights above their own airfields, and perhaps a range of other obsolete types could be considered for these duties? The Typhoon did not see service with CC or the FAA - the latter did at least have a brief loan of one, promptly crashing it.

Hmmm...Yes, I can see all that. The Hurricane I did obtain is a Sea Hurricane, but the Gladiator I have is not a Sea Gladiator. I don't know where I saw the Typhoon reference and I'm more than willing to drop it. The Nomad I referred to is the Northrop N-3PB stationed in Iceland and piloted by Norwegians. The Swordfish is listed along with Tarpon/Avengers as CC in the CC order of battle on Wiki, as well.

There was a multi-part Warwick kit that permitted the making of any variant - a vacuform from Contrail.

Beyond my abilities. I'm a novice and I now have more styrene kits than I'll ever be able to finish in my lifetime, so I don't think I'll take on vacuform kits. Thanks, though.

For a full list of FAA types in this theatre, you should add the Roc, the Maryland, and the N3PB. The Fokker T8W saw brief use with CC. Boston/Havocs and Chesapeakes were only seen as trainers. I have my doubts about the Battle, but where is the Beaufighter?

Not in my list? It's built...completed. Battle is also listed in the CC order of battle. Early. CC got lots of 'hand-me-down' craft. I have two Maryland, for some reason. And the Nomad, I've two of those, too, but no Roc. The Defiant made it only because it was put to use doing search and rescue for downed personnel.

The USS Wasp's Wildcats, Vindicators (and Devastators?) were based in Orkney during Operations Pedestal and Bowery: the USS Ranger did carry out a strike against a Norwegian target but don't know offhand what types she had - I suspect Wildcats and Dauntlesses. (Edit: Wiki adds Avengers.)

Ah, now that's new, good information. I'd guess the Wildcats and Dauntlesses, too. We're talking early US involvement, right? By later in the war, would they have not used Hellcats?

Floatplanes as target tugs: the drogues would be carried on board and paid out before the shooting began. They would then be dropped on an adjacent airfield (or and pre-arranged convenient piece of dry land, I assume).

Thanks!!

ETA: How about the Dornier Do-215? Did it serve on the Atlantic coast? I know the Do-217E did. And, the Bf-109 made no showing in Goss' book, but he begins with early 1942, so there was already a history, including the Battle of Britain. Did the Fw-190 replace the Messerschmitts later in the war in the interceptor role, or was it a front thing? And, the Bf-110s...were they withdrawn early and replaced with the Ju-88s?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Dakota Roo

[agboak]

I'd go with Wiki re the Ranger strikes (two targets) but not with the Letov's. Czechoslovakia did not have a common border with France and no aircraft are mentioned as having fled there. I'm not sure they had the range, anyway. If it had happened, this would have been before WW2 and thus required return. I'm tempted to say this is a confusion with the T8W though that's one hell of a confusion.

OK, understood, but the N3PB was not the Nomad. The Nomad was the DB8/A-17 attack aircraft, a predecessor of the Dauntless.

The Chesapeake did equip one front-line FAA unit but it never saw active service - much like the Helldiver and (for CC) the Mariner.

It's possible that some of the operations around DDay led to FAA Avenger units operating under temporary CC control, and that's why they could have been linked, but there were no CC units with Avengers. As opposed to the Swordfish and Albacore which did equip one RAF unit.

Edited September 16, 2014 by agboak

[Dakota Roo]

OK, understood, but the N3PB was not the Nomad. The Nomad was the DB8/A-17 attack aircraft, a predecessor of the Dauntless.

From the wiki article...the first sentence:

"The Northrop N-3PB Nomad was a single-engined American floatplane of the 1940s. Northrop developed the N-3PB as an export model based on the earlier Northrop A-17 design."

As I understand it, the Norwegians buying the craft liked the A-17, but wanted some revisions to the export design. The result was the N-3PB.

[Dakota Roo]

It's possible that some of the operations around DDay led to FAA Avenger units operating under temporary CC control, and that's why they could have been linked, but there were no CC units with Avengers. As opposed to the Swordfish and Albacore which did equip one RAF unit.

Website 'Grumman Avenger in British Service' confirms:

"A large number of Avengers were used by shore-based Fleet Air Arm squadrons in Britain. These squadrons flew anti-submarine patrols, dropped mines and attacked shipping. They also took part in the D-Day landings, with five squadrons involved, under the control of Coastal Command. Two Avengers even managed to shoot down V-1 flying bombs! The shore based Avengers operated over quite a large area, even attacking enemy shipping in St. Peter Port, Guernsey, in July 1944, while towards the end of the month a German landing craft full of troops was sunk off St. Malo."

Edited September 16, 2014 by Dakota Roo

[agboak]

The N3PB was certainly related to the (very interesting) sequence of Northrop/Douglas designs leading up to the Dauntless, but it was a distinct new design, much more than an A-17 on floats. The A-17 line had stayed with Douglas becoming the DB8, as delivered to Sweden and the Netherlands. The Nomad was the name given to the A-17 (or A-17A, strictly?) in British service. The N3PB was designed by Northrop after he had parted from Douglas and was not given a name in British service, perhaps because of its very specific link with and use by the Norwegians.

[Dakota Roo]

Website 'Grumman Avenger in British Service' confirms:

"A large number of Avengers were used by shore-based Fleet Air Arm squadrons in Britain. These squadrons flew anti-submarine patrols, dropped mines and attacked shipping. They also took part in the D-Day landings, with five squadrons involved, under the control of Coastal Command. Two Avengers even managed to shoot down V-1 flying bombs! The shore based Avengers operated over quite a large area, even attacking enemy shipping in St. Peter Port, Guernsey, in July 1944, while towards the end of the month a German landing craft full of troops was sunk off St. Malo."

I just got to wondering about this...They sunk a German landing craft, full of troops, off St. Malo, toward the end of the month following the Allied landings in Normandy?

Anybody got more info on this incident?