Tamiya f-4ej to f-4e

[Janne]

Hi,

So i have Tamiya F-4EJ in my stash and i was wondering is it possible to convert to F-4EJ? What are the biggest differences? I tried to google it but coudnt find anything that would help me.

Janne

[digit]

I don't really know anything about the F-4, but I stumbled upon this old thread while looking for list of things to do for F-4F to F-4E conversion. Maybe it is enough to get you started:

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=148643

[Ben Brown]

IIRC, the only difference between the Tamiya EJ and the plain old E kits were the instrument panels? If that's the case, you could replace them with an entire aftermarket cockpit or put a note up on the Large Scale Planes forum to see if anyone has some spare E panels. I think the EJ also included a solid (not clear) nose, in addition to clear nose parts, while the regular E only had the clear nose parts.

Ben

EDIT: are you wanting to convert from an EJ to an E or from an E to an EJ? You have "EJ" in both places.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Ben Brown

[Jennings]

Doesn't the original EJ have the unslotted stabs?

[Janne]

I want to do E from EJ kit. If Instrument panel is only difference i think i go with AM cockpit, or just scratch it my self. Is there any difference in air frame? Antennas, scoops etc. ?

[Janne]

Doesn't the original EJ have the unslotted stabs?

Link that Digit posted says EJ has slotted stabs.

[Rex]

The link might say they had slatted wings,,,,,,,,but, Jennings is correct, the F-4EJ had hard wings. Oh, and they had unslotted stabs until the F-4EJ Kai upgrades.

(edited because I once again read slats when someone said slots,,,,,I gotta watch that)

Edited September 12, 2014 by Rex

[Jennings]

I was talking about the horizontal stabs, not the wings. Slots are not the same as slats.

[Rex]

I know, I was editing it at the same time as you were typing your post.

Anyway, I agreed with you. Slotted Stabs were a later upgrade.

[Jennings]

:)

[Ben Brown]

So, if your kit doesn't have slotted stabs you need, you can probably find some on the LSP forum. There is also a guy who sells Tamiya F-4 parts on eBay: LINK

Ben

[Wild Weasel V]

Doesn't the original EJ have the unslotted stabs?

All F-4EJs had slotted stabilators from day one. There is a McDonnell picture of the first JASDF F-4E 17-8301 flying over St Louis and you can see the the slotted stabilator. The same goes for pictures taken at the end of the delivery flight to Japan. These can be found on page 88 of Bunrindo FAOW No.82 (the black cover series from 2000) and pages 6 & 56 of Vol 3 dated March 1972 in their blue cover series. I've found these pictures which would have been taken during the pre-delivery flights (note the EROS anti-collision pod in the forward Sparrow well): http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/IN/IN-1005/18-1.jpg. I find it highly improbable that the Japanese changed the specification after the first two aircraft and then went back to them at some indeterminate time. The only pictures of Japanese Phantoms I've seen with solid stabilators are their RF-4Es (not to be confused with the converted gun-nosed RF-4EJs).

Ben, the Tamiya F-4EJ has slotted stabs. I have one to convert to a F-4G one day, having bought it specifically to use the clear nose to correct a Revell F-4F because the Tamiya F-4EJ kit comes with both clear and grey noses unlike the standard F-4E. I think the rear IP is the same in both kits; it was changed on the real jet when the JASDF upgraded their F-4s to the Kai though.

[Ben Brown]

All F-4EJs had slotted stabilators from day one. There is a McDonnell picture of the first JASDF F-4E 17-8301 flying over St Louis and you can see the the slotted stabilator. The same goes for pictures taken at the end of the delivery flight to Japan. These can be found on page 88 of Bunrindo FAOW No.82 (the black cover series from 2000) and pages 6 & 56 of Vol 3 dated March 1972 in their blue cover series. I've found these pictures which would have been taken during the pre-delivery flights (note the EROS anti-collision pod in the forward Sparrow well): http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/IN/IN-1005/18-1.jpg. I find it highly improbable that the Japanese changed the specification after the first two aircraft and then went back to them at some indeterminate time. The only pictures of Japanese Phantoms I've seen with solid stabilators are their RF-4Es (not to be confused with the converted gun-nosed RF-4EJs).

Ben, the Tamiya F-4EJ has slotted stabs. I have one to convert to a F-4G one day, having bought it specifically to use the clear nose to correct a Revell F-4F because the Tamiya F-4EJ kit comes with both clear and grey noses unlike the standard F-4E. I think the rear IP is the same in both kits; it was changed on the real jet when the JASDF upgraded their F-4s to the Kai though.

Good to know!

Ben

[seawinder]

Pardon my gross ignorance, but could someone explain the "clear nose?" What is it for?

Thanks,

Pip

Edited September 13, 2014 by seawinder

[Netz]

And you will have to limit yourself to "Hard Wing" airframes, so pretty much pre 1972-3 A/C. And naturally there are special cases...

Curt

[dehowie]

Yep any F-4E which carried a gun "needed" slotted stabs.

The reason the slots where installed was because it needed the aerodynamics to offset the weight of the gun .

If it had a gun it had slotted stab.

[Scott R Wilson]

Yep any F-4E which carried a gun "needed" slotted stabs.

The reason the slots where installed was because it needed the aerodynamics to offset the weight of the gun .

If it had a gun it had slotted stab.

Not so. The F-4F was an F-4E without the #7 fuel cell nor the CW Illuminator LRU, had a nose gun and leading edge slats on the wing but non-slotted stabilator.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Scott R Wilson

[Pete]

Pardon my gross ignorance, but could someone explain the "clear nose?" What is it for?

Thanks,

Pip

It's to show off the inner bits on your model. It's a display gimmick, it's not some special version of the nose on the real one. Just clear plastic.

[seawinder]

It's to show off the inner bits on your model. It's a display gimmick, it's not some special version of the nose on the real one. Just clear plastic.

Ah so! Thanks!

[caiotfjr]

Doesn't the original EJ have the unslotted stabs?

F-4EJ (Japan) has slotted stabs and hard wings. F-4F (Germany) has unslotted stabs and slatted wings

[batura]

If you are going to make a slatted F-4E, you need to be careful with the instrument panels. As far as I know the EJ kit has the early F-4E panel which was similar to the panel of F-4D.

[dehowie]

Not so. The F-4F was an F-4E without the #7 fuel cell nor the CW Illuminator LRU, had a nose gun and leading edge slats on the wing but non-slotted stabilator.

Like to know how the Germans got away with that as the center of gravity on the E with a gun was "the reason" why the slotted stab was fitted.

The aircraft was extremely nose heavy and difficult to rotate on take off hence the slotted stab was fitted to give the stab more bite at low speed easing the nose down forces on take off.

They must of dumped something in the front end to balance the weight of the gun installation.

[Scott R Wilson]

Like to know how the Germans got away with that as the center of gravity on the E with a gun was "the reason" why the slotted stab was fitted.

The aircraft was extremely nose heavy and difficult to rotate on take off hence the slotted stab was fitted to give the stab more bite at low speed easing the nose down forces on take off.

They must of dumped something in the front end to balance the weight of the gun installation.

I know what you said has been published but it makes no sense to me. Every airplane has a range that the center of gravity has to be in. For it to be true gun-nosed Phantoms were "extremely nose heavy" implies it was exceeding, at, or at least very near the forward CG limit, not something that would be allowed to happen. I don't know where the weight was changed, if they added ballast to the rear or what to counter the weight of the gun. I believe the APQ-120 was lighter than the APQ-100 or APQ-109, that may have had some effect in that direction.

The only thing the stabilator slots accomplish is add a few more degrees negative AoA (pitching the nose up) before the stab stalls, perhaps that "extra bite" you talk about.

Anyway the German F-4F disproves the notion that the slotted stab was necessary for the gun-nosed Phantom, that's obvious. But like you I don't know what changes were made to keep the CG in range, and that statement goes for all long-nose Phantoms, not just the F-4F.

[Jennings]

The aircraft was extremely nose heavy and difficult to rotate on take off hence the slotted stab was fitted to give the stab more bite at low speed easing the nose down forces on take off.

That's an urban legend. The F-4J had a slotted stab before the F-4E came along. If the airplane was that nose heavy, I don't know many pilots who would have been willing to strap one on and fly it.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Jennings

[Scott R Wilson]

That's an urban legend. The F-4J had a slotted stab before the F-4E came along. If the airplane was that nose heavy, I don't know many pilots who would have been willing to strap one on and fly it.

"Tailspin Tommy" said on his site the Navy Phantoms had the slotted stab to give a bit more low-speed stabilator control to counteract the extra nose-down pitching moment from having the ailerons droop when flaps were lowered. That makes sense to me, having experienced pitch changes due to the center of lift changing from lowering the flaps in the light aircraft I've flown.

One thing worth mentioning is that when I worked on F-4Es, whenever we sent an airplane to depot maintenance we pulled the classified KIT-1A and KIR-1A for the Mode 4 IFF and the RT-961 for the APX-81 Soviet IFF interrogator. We put ballast in their places to keep the CG the same. The Mode 4 computers were in the CNI bay in the rear of the nose wheel well and the RT-961 was in the Door 19 bay behind the rear cockpit, both areas in front of the CG.

If it was true the F-4E was nose heavy, removing these items would have helped that situation, and ballast would not be necessary or helpful.

Scott W.