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Arcane Bf-109 question


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Folks,

Over on the In-progress forum, I am building a somewhat unique looking 109G-6, Yellow 5. Late war paint scheme with one wing in mid-war grey colors and most uniquely, an overall RLM76 (white blue) cowling with just the mottling used.

The aircraft in question has been thoroughly researched and a profile is here: http://theprofilepaintshop.blogspot.se/2013/09/bf109g-6-found-at-kassel.html

There is only one picture (not available for release) that shows the cowling. The angle is low but it does appear to confirm that the cowling was RLM76. Typically, the top of the cowling would be painted the same as the wings and fuselage spine (either mid-war grey or late war green / brown), with mottling on the sides. I guess it's possible that there was a very narrow stripe of cammo down the center of it but that seems unlikely.

Just curious if anyone has come across other Bf-109's with a cowling similar to Yellow 5? I'm torn between leaving it overall RLM76 or painting a narrow stripe of brown / green down it's centerline. Thoughts?

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1. We will never know why that cowling was done that way.

2. We will probably never know if there was another one done the same way (probably by the same person) for the same reason.

3. Black and white photographs, by definition, make it impossible to prove *anything* about color values.

4. Unless there's a photo showing the top of the cowling, there's no way to prove or disprove whether it was a different color.

Some things are simply unknowable.

Edited by Jennings
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Hello;

I think that the profile is correct, it looks to me as the cowl is RLM 76 with just mottling,

Then you have Me109G-10 w.NR 491 241 Ferdinand Dyk JG 300 ,with all RLM 76 cowl but the mottling is much finer.

Cheers

Boris

Edited by BGB
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1. We will never know why that cowling was done that way.

2. We will probably never know if there was another one done the same way (probably by the same person) for the same reason.

3. Black and white photographs, by definition, make it impossible to prove *anything* about color values.

4. Unless there's a photo showing the top of the cowling, there's no way to prove or disprove whether it was a different color.

Some things are simply unknowable.

I know all that, that's part of the fun of painting late war German aircraft. My question was whether anyone had ever come across a picture of a similar paint job on another -109. If so, I'd feel more comfortable painting "my" Yellow 5 that way. If not, I may go with a narrow center and RLM76 sides.

It's a longshot that anyone would have seen pictures that can answer this question but I figured it'd be worth asking.

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To an extent, I agree with Jennings, but although not a full expert, I have been studying 109s for many years, and do have what you might call gut feelings. In my opinion, the airframe in and of itself, would be in late war colors, probably 75 and 83 (dark green). I believe the cowl might well be overall 76, with a mottle of 75. Bear in mind, there were 109s in overall 76, which might have been a source of the cowling. might have been a repainted all yellow cowling, impossible to know. Were it I, I'd paint it as above, and with the assumption that the off wing is from another airframe, I'd alter the 76 slightly to account for that., I personally don't believe I'd do the narrow strip of 75 for the cowling top. Due to the chaotic situation in the last 6 months of the war, many strange and wonderful aberrations came to be. have fun with this build.

Second thought after examining the profile a little more, I believe I'd do the sides and belly of the fuselage, and underside of the port wing in what we have dubbed RLM 84, in other words pale green. (I add just a drop or 2 of 83 to 76 to make mine). the area aft of the RVD stripe I would use normal 76 for. This is a real hybrid beauty. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, I love these hybrid schemes, and trying to analyze the whys and wherefores of the scheme.

Edited by Hal Marshman Sr
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To answer your question (a bit more concisely and devoid of negativity) I'd say yes....it was not at all uncommon for the Luftwaffe to cannibalize parts from one aircraft to make another flight worthy. There are numerous photos of late war 109's (and 190's for that matter) which clearly do show a newer cowling in place that does not match the existing (often field painted) camouflage.

Greg

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:D, It seems that varying colours on Bf-109Gs weren't that uncommon as aircraft were repaired (perhaps in the field) with parts from other unserviceable or damaged beyond economical repair aircraft. Many years ago when I was still at school and in the Air Training Corps I was selected to apply for a flying scholarship. This entailed a weekend spent in Sydney living at RAAF Base Bankstown and travelling each day into Hickson Rd in the Rocks area of Sydney for testing and the like.

Some of us didn't make it through the testing and so were dispatched back to Bankstown after afternoon tea on Saturday. We had nothing to do and as it was Rugby League Grand Final day and we didn't want to hang around Bankstown shopping centre we returned to the base and walked down to the civilian airfield to have a look at Syd Marshall's collection of aircraft. He had quite a collection of types there including what I believe was an original Ford Flivver and several Mustangs which were used for target towing.

He also had a Messershmitt Bf109G with wings from two different aircraft and from memory the fuselage from another. All these components were slightly different shades of the standard Luftwaffe late war colours. This was the aircraft which years later was prevented from being exported to the UK by astute customs officials in a mid night raid and now resides in the Australian War Memorial's collection. Of course it's now more evenly painted but still in the closest they could mix to late war Luftwaffe colours.

Perhaps these odd coloured parts were from other aircraft and who knows, maybe the 2 sides of the cowling may even have been from different aircraft as the cowlings were 2 piece jobs joined by a piano wire type hinge.

:cheers:,

Ross.

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To an extent, I agree with Jennings, but although not a full expert, I have been studying 109s for many years, and do have what you might call gut feelings. In my opinion, the airframe in and of itself, would be in late war colors, probably 75 and 83 (dark green). I believe the cowl might well be overall 76, with a mottle of 75. Bear in mind, there were 109s in overall 76, which might have been a source of the cowling. might have been a repainted all yellow cowling, impossible to know. Were it I, I'd paint it as above, and with the assumption that the off wing is from another airframe, I'd alter the 76 slightly to account for that., I personally don't believe I'd do the narrow strip of 75 for the cowling top. Due to the chaotic situation in the last 6 months of the war, many strange and wonderful aberrations came to be. have fun with this build.

Second thought after examining the profile a little more, I believe I'd do the sides and belly of the fuselage, and underside of the port wing in what we have dubbed RLM 84, in other words pale green. (I add just a drop or 2 of 83 to 76 to make mine). the area aft of the RVD stripe I would use normal 76 for. This is a real hybrid beauty. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, I love these hybrid schemes, and trying to analyze the whys and wherefores of the scheme.

Thanks for the info Hal (and the rest of you guys). I'll probably keep things as they are then. With regard to the port wing, the guy that did the profile (Anders, great guy by the way), sent me some B&W pictures of this aircraft. I was asked to keep them to myself but in the pics, you can determine that the underside of the port wing was natural metal (common for late war Bf-109's) so that's the color I went with. I agree with your other observations, though I went with a more brown-ish shade of 84 based on that one color picture that I have (it's in my build log but I'll post here as well):

5172318990_5a7139bcb0_o_zps20595d44.jpg

The other B&W pics I have show Yellow 5 in better shape but this one gives you a good idea of the basic color scheme. BTW, I think this is one of the best color pictures of a late war German fighter. It clearly shows the late war colors, especially the mythical RLM84.

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A real nooob here when it comes to Luftwaffe stuff - why can't that RLM76 (on the tail) be RLM77 instead - relatively fresh though?

I ask this because I am going/was going? to do a Me262 that had a white grey or blue-grey nose (it is one of the versions of Eduards Me262) and I have been experimenting with different colours on a scrap over RLM76 enamel, (Testors' version and this looks pretty similar.

This is not a thread hijack about ME262.. just colour talk.

Edit- (thinking to self- of course he has other photos that he is not allowed to post >_< which could highlight other things)

Edited by Wege
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As pertains to the port wing undersides, I agree, many late 109s had NMF. I'd bring that to where the wing meets the fuselage. I'd also make the wingtips, flap and aileron undersides 76, rather than the 84. reason i say this is these items were produced at locations other than the factory, and if Focke Wulf aircraft are any example, these small facilities didn't have access to the latest paints. Matter of face, I'd also leave the underside of the stabilizers and elevators in regular 76 also, for the same reason. Please do publish pics of the bird when you've finished painting it. I've got a spare g-6 here, never know, if I have a yellow five decal, I might give it a shot. I love these late war mix n match schemes, and I love the process of trying to figure them out .

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As pertains to the port wing undersides, I agree, many late 109s had NMF. I'd bring that to where the wing meets the fuselage. I'd also make the wingtips, flap and aileron undersides 76, rather than the 84. reason i say this is these items were produced at locations other than the factory, and if Focke Wulf aircraft are any example, these small facilities didn't have access to the latest paints. Matter of face, I'd also leave the underside of the stabilizers and elevators in regular 76 also, for the same reason. Please do publish pics of the bird when you've finished painting it. I've got a spare g-6 here, never know, if I have a yellow five decal, I might give it a shot. I love these late war mix n match schemes, and I love the process of trying to figure them out .

I went with 76 for the other components of the wing underside. Could be 84, no way you can tell from the one pic. Here's my build log, I've got her all painted up, just working on the last few parts. Once I'm done, I'll grab a decal set for the Yellow 5's.

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=273838

BTW, if you want to see a great build of a truly unique looking late war G-6, check this out:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47751/thread/1397924587/Bf+109+G-6+W.nr.+163824

It's the Bf-109 that I posted a few color pics of in my build. It's the only unrestored WW2 German aircraft, currently in the Australian War Memorial Museum. Ross - this is the -109 you were referring to.

Wege- It's possible that the tail has RLM77 instead. I know some very late war G-10's from one particular factory were painted with 77 but for a G-6, I figured it would probably be 76. However, towards the end, there started to be different shades of 76 appearing. My guess is that the Germans just started mixing paint together to come up with a close match. Some folks have speculated that RLM84 was simply a mix of 02 and 76. I still have a dream that somewhere in Eastern Europe, some farmer has a pristine late war -109 that's been sitting in his barn since VE day! That would finally answer many questions about how these aircraft were painted.

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