Differences between the F-8C, F-8D and F-8E?

[Harrier/Viper Fan]

Whats the difference between the F-8C-F-8D and the F-8E? I have the F-8E kit by Hase, the Furball Aero-Design decals I have, have the F-8C and D on them and got thinking if one could do a F-8C or F-8E with the F-8E kit?

[guillaume320]

Hi,

I just logged in to ask what I would need to make a 1/48 F-8C, and I find your topic you just started 10 minutes before me. What a coincidence... :)

I'm waiting for the experts to answer the question...

Regards,

Guillaume

[habu2]

From a model perspective the main difference is the nose. The E had a different/larger radar so the radome and nose fuselage were shaped differently. I think the main difference between the C & D was the addition of the IR seeker on the nose of the D.

[Ben Brown]

I think Muroc Models is the place to go for a 1/48 conversion for the Hasegawa kit. Their products have gotten good reviews in the past. Price list and contact email: http://www.edwardsflighttest.com/price_list.pdf

Ben

[guillaume320]

Ben,

Thanks for the link to the Muroc Models products... I note there is a 'max' and 'basic' conversion set available for the F-8C. Any idea what the differences (apart from the price) are?

Best regards,

Guillaume

[Niels]

Don't forget that the F-8C do not have the "hump" on the back that the F-8E does. (This contained the steering unit for bulpup missiles)

So main differences:

F-8C: Pointier nose, no IR sensor, no hunchback

F-8E: Rounder nose, IR sensor, hunchback

From Wikipedia:

F8U-2 (F-8C) – J57-P-16 engine with 16,900 lbf (75 kN) of afterburning thrust, ventral fins added under the rear fuselage in an attempt to rectify yaw instability, Y-shaped chin pylons allowing two Sidewinder missiles on each side of the fuselage, AN/APQ-83 radar retrofitted during later upgrades. First flight: 20 August 1957, 187 built. This variant was sometimes referred to as Crusader II.[32]

F8U-2N (F-8D) – all-weather version, unguided rocket pack replaced with an additional fuel tank, J57-P-20 engine with 18,000 lbf (80 kN) of afterburning thrust, landing system which automatically maintained present airspeed during approach, incorporation of AN/APQ-83 radar. First flight: 16 February 1960, 152 built.

F8U-2NE (F-8E) – J57-P-20A engine, AN/APQ-94 radar in a larger nose cone, dorsal hump between the wings containing electronics for the AGM-12 Bullpup missile, payload increased to 5,000 lb (2,270 kg), Martin-Baker ejection seat, AN/APQ-94 radar replaced AN/APQ-83 radar in earlier F-8D. IRST sensor blister (round ball) was added in front of the canopy.[33] First flight: 30 June 1961, 286 built.

Worth noting is also the update-version of the above:

F-8H – upgraded F-8D with strengthened airframe and landing gear, with AN/APQ-84 radar. A total of 89 rebuilt.

F-8K – upgraded F-8C with Bullpup capability and J57-P-20A engines, with AN/APQ-125 radar. A total of 87 rebuilt

F-8J – upgraded F-8E, similar to F-8D but with wing modifications and BLC like on F-8E(FN), "wet" pylons for external fuel tanks, J57-P-20A engine, with AN/APQ-124 radar. A total of 136 rebuilt.

[Ben Brown]

Ben,

Thanks for the link to the Muroc Models products... I note there is a 'max' and 'basic' conversion set available for the F-8C. Any idea what the differences (apart from the price) are?

Best regards,

Guillaume

Hi Guillame,

Sorry, I don't know much about the different versions of the conversion, other than people have said good things about them here on ARC and on other forums. It's just been one of those conversions I read about and saved the link, since it sounded like something I'd like to do someday. :)/>/> Here are some pics from a thread at Zone-Five: http://zone-five.net/showthread.php?t=11314

Cheers!

Ben

Edited October 22, 2014 by Ben Brown

[Netz]

HERE's the ARC release of Dave's F-8 conversion, he explains the difference in the two conversion options.

Curt

[Tailspin Turtle]

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2009/10/f8u-crusader-variations.html

[habu2]

I think Muroc Models is the place to go for a 1/48 conversion for the Hasegawa kit. Their products have gotten good reviews in the past. Price list and contact email: http://www.edwardsflighttest.com/price_list.pdf

Unfortunately he has closed his online store, this according to the main page :(

[guillaume320]

Thats very sad news.... :((((

I really hope another manufacturer will jump in to fill the gap! I need an F-8C conversion or 2 for my Furball sheet...

[Exhausted]

If I may make a quick summary:

F-8A & F-8B: indistinguishable from the outside

F-8C: kept legacy nose (very pointy, little curve) and added ventral fins

F-8D: new rounded nose, some have IR tracking device

F-8E: like F-8D but with new hump on top of the wing for weapon avionics

F-8E(FN): double slotted leading edge flaps, higher flap angle, enlarged elevators

F-8H: update of F-8D, new landing gear (from A-7 I think), new radar

F-8J: update of F-8E, plumbing added to wing pylons for external tanks

F-8K: update of F-8C with new radar, Bullpup capability

F-8L: update of F-8B, wing pylons added, no ventral fins

F-8M: propsed update of F-8A, none built

[Rex]

That online store was the Edwards gift shop,,,,,,he still sells his stuff directly via his own email.

And now that I have typed that, I can't find his email address,,,,,,but, I got it from someone here on ARC, maybe they will repost it?

[Timvkampen]

If you can find it, this is what you need:

http://acc.kitreview.com/f8conversionreviewbg_1.htm

[guillaume320]

Thanks for the link TIm. That Cutting Edge conversion certainly looks good... but where to find?? Its more than 10 years old...

[Paul Boyer]

If I may make a quick summary:

F-8A & F-8B: indistinguishable from the outside

F-8C: kept legacy nose (very pointy, little curve) and added ventral fins

F-8D: new rounded nose, some have IR tracking device

F-8E: like F-8D but with new hump on top of the wing for weapon avionics

F-8E(FN): double slotted leading edge flaps, higher flap angle, enlarged elevators

F-8H: update of F-8D, new landing gear (from A-7 I think), new radar

F-8J: update of F-8E, plumbing added to wing pylons for external tanks

F-8K: update of F-8C with new radar, Bullpup capability

F-8L: update of F-8B, wing pylons added, no ventral fins

F-8M: propsed update of F-8A, none built

I don't think that is quite correct. For example, the F-8D still had the pointy nose; the enlarged nose came with the radar-equipped F-8E (F8U-2NE). For a comprehensive rundown of the Crusader variants, scroll down through the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F-8_Crusader

[Rex]

you can also tell an F-8A from an F-8B

the noses were the same shape, but, the radomes were much shorter (this short radome was also on the RF-8s)

When the F-8B got a newer radar than the F-8A/RF-8 had, the line at the back of the radome disappeared and the radome was extended all the way back to the intake

So, when you use an F-8A conversion to make an F-8B or L, fill in that line with putty and sand it smooth to make it into one long radome, shaped the same as F-8C and D

Another difference between the C and D is that the A, B and C had a rocket tray between the nose gear well and the speedbrake, deleted on the D and up, and deleted on the L and K rebuilds.

edit, a couple of other differences,,,,the H gained the hump from the E when the Ds were upgraded to H confuration,,,,,,,,and two Squadrons operated the E without the hump in the early days, VF-33 and VF-51, with VF-33 actually deploying with them without humps

Edited October 23, 2014 by Rex

[Superheat]

If I may make a quick summary:

F-8A & F-8B: indistinguishable from the outside

F-8C: kept legacy nose (very pointy, little curve) and added ventral fins

F-8D: new rounded nose, some have IR tracking device

F-8E: like F-8D but with new hump on top of the wing for weapon avionics

F-8E(FN): double slotted leading edge flaps, higher flap angle, enlarged elevators

F-8H: update of F-8D, new landing gear (from A-7 I think), new radar

F-8J: update of F-8E, plumbing added to wing pylons for external tanks

F-8K: update of F-8C with new radar, Bullpup capability

F-8L: update of F-8B, wing pylons added, no ventral fins

F-8M: propsed update of F-8A, none built

Almost nothing in this is correct. I am working on an extensive illustrated reply to the original question, but I cannot let this pass as is.

The A and B are quite easy to tell apart, just look at the radome. The A has only a gun-ranging radar at the very tip of the nose cone and has a gun camera window in the left side of that small radome. The B had a APS-67 radar and consequently had an actual fibreglass radome the same size and shape as the A nose cone, with the gun camera window in the bottom of the radome. In the cockpit, the A panel has no radar screen, the B does, a square box with a round CRT screen.

The F-8C had the same radar and nose configuration as the B and added the ventral fins as well as the AB cooling scoops on the tailcone, necessary for the higher temps of the new P16 engine. It also has 6 inches more wingspan than the A and B and was the first version to carry the Y pylon. The B and C cockpits are identical. The C was also the first version to get the Martin-Baker F5 seat as original equipment, the last 44 receiving it instead of the previous Douglas/Vought seat

The F-8D had exactly the same nose as the B/C except for the addition of the IR dome which necessitated a shorter center windscreen. The upper forward fuselage panel configuration is quite different from the earlier versions. The D had the P20 engine which had different AB nozzle petals than the P4 and P16 in the earlier versions. The APQ-83 was a proper air intercept radar with lock-on and tracking capability that the APS-67 lacked, so, in the cockpit, the D introduced the dual stick grips with the radar control grip in front of the flight control grip. The D also deleted the rocket pack in favor of an additional fuselage fuel cell and relocated the hydraulic accumulators from the forward main gear bulkhead to the speed brake well. It was also the first version with an autopilot, albeit a very basic one with only heading and altitude hold. A D was used by Vought to test the wing stores for the F-8Eand photographs exist of that aircraft, even some with Bullpups

The F-8E introduced the APQ-94 radar which was much larger and required a redesign of the nose to accommodate it. The cockpit was essentially identical to the D except for the radar screen which was a larger rectangular CRT, conventionally mounted vertically in the panel, not at the angle depicted in the Hasegawa, Academy, and Trumpeter kits - that was a feature of the cockpit mockup for the E, no aircraft was configured that way. The E was also the first version with wing stores capability. During production, the so-called Bullpup hump was added to the upper fuselage/wing in anticipation of certification of that weapon on the aircraft. There is no record of that certification ever being made and no record of the weapon ever being used operationally on the aircraft. The hump was retrofit to those aircraft built without it and used eventually on all Es to house the ALQ-49 ECM suite and APR-27 SAM threat indicator as part of Project Shoehorn - a much more beneficial use of the space, believe me.* The E introduced the P20A engine, but P20's were overhauled to P20A standards, so Ds also ended up with P20A's.

The E had the F5 seat from beginning to end. In spite of what various aftermarket manufacturers would have you believe, the E did not get the F7 seat. I flew 162's last E to Dallas for the J conversion and it had an F5 seat.

The F-8E(FN) has double hinged leading edge flaps, not double slotted. Leading edge flaps do not have slots, that is a feature of slats and trailing edge flaps. Additionally the ailerons had BLC, so the ailerons are slightly different. The Hasegawa kit ailerons look a lot more like E(FN)/J ailerons than A-E, but it is not a big deal

The F-8H did indeed have new main gear, as did the J, similar to, but not the same as the A-7 main gear. The visible difference is the packing seal flange at mid length on the main strut: the original gear has it, the new struts do not. All the rebuids got a new nose gear dimensionally identical to the original but with a longer throw on the compression strut. It also incorporated cable deflector horns on the front of the nose gear forks. (These forks are present on the Monogram, Hasegawa, Academy and Trumpeter kits and should be removed for an E or any earlier version.) The H also got the hump - referred to by now as the Shoehorn fairing since it contained the ECM gear mentioned above. The H also got brand new wings with the same stores capabilities as the E, BUT: NO Bullpup capability in spite of what you read in some sources - trust me, I flew the H and it did not have it. Period. The H retained the D's APQ-83 radar, but in the cockpit it got the APQ-94's larger rectangular screen, making the E and H cockpits pretty much identical. The H also introduced the Martin-Baker F7 rocket seat, which was fitted to all rebuilds.

The F-8J incorporated the same new gear as the H and also got a new wing incorporating the double droop and BLC of the E(FN), plus the larger UHT's (Vought-speak for horizontal stabs). The new wing was indeed, plumbed for external tanks, but they were never carried operationally since Pax River determined that jettisoning empty tanks had a high probability of hitting the UHT's. The J did get a "new" radar: the APQ-124. But it was, unfortunately, not really new, it was a rebuild of the APQ-94 that was supposed to give a 50% increase in detection and tracking ranges, plus a Doppler mode. In the end, when we finally started getting radars to install in our aircraft (initially we were flying them with lead weights in the nose), they had detection and tracking ranges less than half that of the APQ-94, and no Doppler. Had it been a new radar, we would have just gone back to the 94, but that was not an option. Of course, if we could have, we'd have just gone back to the F-8E, since the J had a substantial performance deficit to the E from which it was derived - you cannot add 2,000 pounds of dead weight, a 10% increase, with no increase in thrust and wing area without a deficit. The J was just plain overweight and underpowered, a real problem at the back end of the boat, even with the lower approach speed. At the high ambient temps in the summer on Yankee Station, wave-offs were not possible in basic engine - and if you went into burner and got a closed nozzle light or an open nozzle with no light, you were on the ramp. For us LSO's the wave-off window moved way out for the J. Eventually, the J got the P420 with 1500 pounds more thrust, but so did the H - guess which one was the better performer!

The F-8K did not get a new radar or Bullpup capability (it didn't even get the hump). It got the new nose gear, low cycle mains from the D and E, and the lowest time wings from the E, giving it wing stores capability - but NO bullpups! It also got cockpit upgrades including the cockpit lighting of the D and E.

The F-8L got all the same upgrades as the K, plus the provision to mount ventral fins. A key recognition point for an L versus a B is the three diamond shaped fairings that cover the mounting points for the ventral fins. The ventral fins were required to be mounted when carrying wing stores. Why they didn't just put them on and leave them is a bit of a mystery, but guys who had flown the A and B said it turned better without the ventrals, but they were prone to roll coupling (roll induced yaw)in ACM which led to a lot of departures from controlled flight, which led to ventral fins on the Charlie. Go figure.

F-8M - on this one you are correct. Not enough low time F-8A airframes could be found to make it worthwhile.

I don't know what your source for all that misinformation was, but throw it away!

Cheers,

Tom

*The fascination/enthusiasm of modelers for the Bullpup is something I fail to understand. It was a great weapon for getting the pilot who fired it killed, since it required him to fly his airplane while at the same time guiding the missile to its target, which required him to keep that target in sight, thus limiting his maneuvering in a high threat area. He also had to figure out what the missile thought straight and level was, which was the angle the missile was at after release when guidance became effective, and then compensating for that in his control of the missile. Imagine driving your car on a twisty two lane road with a lot of traffic while simultaneously flying an RC airplane that thinks 30 degrees left bank and 20 degrees nose up is level. When I was in Basic at Meridian in 1966 I was undecided whether I wanted to fly the F-8 or the A-4. My introduction to the Bullpup in a weapons class decided me definitively on the F-8, since I knew that it was not certified on the aircraft and the prospect of having to carry and deliver it was dreadful. In the end, the realities of the combat environment meant that the weapon was not in use for long, at least over the North.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Superheat

[habu2]

Good info, Superheat. A good friend of mine was the NAVPRO at Vought and did a lot of acceptance flights on new Crusaders (and Corsair IIs). He has some F7U horror stories as well.

[Rex]

Yup, always a pleasure to read Navair posts by one of the Toms.