mingwin Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) according to Flankerman's site, the Academy's Flanker is 16mm too short(in 1/48). this makes something like 76,8cm ( 30 inches (2,5 ft))in real size. and this, on an overall lenght of 21,93m... so the replica is about 3,5% too short... it's bad, i know... and if another plastic model company come and make a new, better one... i'd be very very happy! ...but it's been now the only game in town in 1/48 for the last 20 years! you read it ! it was tooled about 20 years ago! ...and it can be buy from 25$ to 45$... so, from 50$ to 30$ less expensive than KH MiG-25PPdSRBRBMKsh. academy's flanker have numerous shortcomings... that most can be fix with aftermarkets! (it sure make the final price much higher...but if KH mig-25 is OK for you, nothing should be required for Academy's Su-27) ....it sure hurts that the shape is all wrong because it's 3,5% too short... so please, get your facts right...or is it because you can't, that you're taking the KH MiG-25's side... Edited February 10, 2015 by mingwin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mingwin Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 also, the Gabor's image that you use, and in which he point out some of the windshield elements, was done, IIRC before KH corrected the said part (because, it was initially incredibly wrong and top-flat) this Forum surely needs more people like Gabor, who have lots of useful knowledge on the real things... and less "goodenuff" crowd, that are of no help... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mingwin Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 oh, and finally... there might be a lot of people that build nice models from the KH MiG-25 kit... but when someone come and claim it can turn into something great...they ALWAYS show Gary Wickam's build! Always! (his WIP page worth a visit!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The new AH-1 and Panther is lovely so bring on the early Sabres. Cougar, not Panther right ? I'm not sure you can compare the MiG-25 and these two. AFAIK the MiG-25 was designed without feedback from knowledgeable people. KH realized that feedback could be taken in account during development in order to offer more accurate kits. Recent kits give pretty good replicas because Floyd, Harold, Bert, Tommy and others helped documenting and debugging the models. The MiG-25, Mirage F1 and Jaguar are another story. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkKnight Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Ive seen some Eduard brass exhaust correction parts, will these make this build any easier/better more accurate? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkKnight Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 anyone know,? is this kit a lost cause? is a retooled version ever gonna come out? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flush Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Well considering the Academy Flanker is over 4 feet short i would say it easily has bigger issues than anything remotely close with the KH Mig. The KH Mig-25 has incorrect burner cans..no intake plumbing (fixed with plugs) and the rest is minor stuff no body would know and the majority wouldn't care about. And it takes some thought to build as well. Academy and the Flanker sure it looks like one but it has far bigger dimensional issues than the big Mig. Its so very typical that a 1 meter discrepancy in length gets dismissed yet a series a minor issues gets a mole hill turned into Mt Everest. Our Russian experts who had their egos bruised have made certain at every turn to elevate every problem and perceived problem into a world ending event with the Mig. I mean "OH MY GOD THE PANEL LINES ON THE TAIL ARE WRONG"! Not all of them mind you just a few yet two pages later it continued. To tell you the truth after there childish tantrum throwing and beating of the drums I would be glad to see KH ignore Russian stuff and leave our Russian accuracy mafia left wallowing with there beloved Revell Mig-25 forever. I would as a manufacturer not touch anything Russian as these ego driven self appointed accuracy KGB deserve zero for the attitude displayed during the entire KH discussion. The new AH-1 and Panther is lovely so bring on the early Sabres. I very much doubt we will see the cool Recon Migs with those awesome cranked noses. You can thank the Russian model mafia for that. Just compare these images for the huge issues pointed out..lol. If your not happy with that I would recommend giving up on modeling as you would never be satisfied with any kit..ever. It is just typical of the criticism levelled at the kit. Stuff that doesnt exist and stuff so minor as to be worthless in any debate on accuracy. Especially considering the Academy SU-27 is only a mere 4' to short. Bravo....Bravo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkKnight Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 the build ups others have done are beautiful, the kits accuracy is an issue, a corrected version makes my life easier, i prefer the shake the box and kit comes out almost perfect method of building, Id love to see a reissue with a few corrected parts or an aftermarket update set, its a great kit and deserves to be built Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I really doubt that KH will revise the kit. I think that they focus their ressources on the future kits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 anyone know,? is this kit a lost cause? is a retooled version ever gonna come out? The only way to know if this (or any other kit) is a "lost cause" is to get one and make a decision for yourself. For me, yes, it's a lost cause. It's so rife with errors that it's not remotely worth the time and effort it would take me to correct them and get a MiG-25 model that *I* would be satisfied with. You or anyone else may have different thoughts on the matter. No one is right and no one is wrong. I liken this kind of kit to a car. If you went to the car dealer and wanted to purchase a 2015 Honda Civic, you'd expect all the parts to fit and function absolutely correctly, right? I mean, you're paying really good money for a 2015 Honda Accord, and you expect to get what you pay for. If Honda put out a 2015 Accord that was analogous to the KH MiG-25, it would have major parts from a Honda Ridgeline, major parts from a Honda Civic, and none of them would fit for crap. And major parts of the body (at least on the two KH kits I've seen) would be warped beyond recognition such that you'd have to hammer them into shape. Would you buy such a car? I certainly wouldn't. Is a retooled version going to come out? I wouldn't hold my breath. This was a very poorly researched and very poorly executed kit from start to finish. It appears to have been a rush job by someone who knows next to nothing about the MiG-25, which is an all too common affliction of Mr. Song's output. But by all means if you like the kit then buy, build, and be happy with it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jgrease Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I thought this was a hobby, one in which the hobbyist sometimes has to do more than glue the parts together and pat themselves on the back. As always happens with these discussions, people start getting testy. Doesn't it boil down to this - some people aren't building a replica for a museum, or even for a contest - they just want the pleasure of sitting at their workbench and building a model they find interesting. They aren't worried about the model being 3mm too short, or a misplaced access panel. They just want to relax and have fun. Aren't those people's opinions just as relevant as those that live for accuracy? If some folks prefer to flame a kit they find to be inaccurate, under-sized, or just bad - well that's their prerogative. Vote with your wallet - if you just can't stand being in the same hemisphere with the KH MiG-25, well then by all means don't buy it! The same goes for any model that doesn't pass your smell test - don't buy it! I don't think anyone participating in this discussion will change anyone else's mind. Agree to disagree and leave this poor dead horse alone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) I don’t know if it is a “dead horse” or not. It is a seriously flawed kit. :(/> Some people like it, good for them. :mellow:/> I think I wait till someone produces a better kit, after all it has been some time since the Revell kit and we made it somehow, so . . . I have it and want to get rid of it as soon as possible. Had a look at it for a review in a publication, was hoping that it is far better than the age old Revell kit. Nope, not for me. At least it was good so that I could help Eduard in design of the four etched sets they did for it. There is always some good news, not only bad. :D/> Anyway, if anyone wants to buy this “dead horse” from me, you know where to find me. There is absolutely no point is holding on to a 70 Euro worth kit that I will never built and someone would be more than happy with it as it is. Preferably in Europe, overseas would be a costly affair. Best regards Gabor Edited March 13, 2015 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Timmy Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I thought this was a hobby, one in which the hobbyist sometimes has to do more than glue the parts together and pat themselves on the back. As always happens with these discussions, people start getting testy. Doesn't it boil down to this - some people aren't building a replica for a museum, or even for a contest - they just want the pleasure of sitting at their workbench and building a model they find interesting. They aren't worried about the model being 3mm too short, or a misplaced access panel. They just want to relax and have fun. Aren't those people's opinions just as relevant as those that live for accuracy? If some folks prefer to flame a kit they find to be inaccurate, under-sized, or just bad - well that's their prerogative. Vote with your wallet - if you just can't stand being in the same hemisphere with the KH MiG-25, well then by all means don't buy it! The same goes for any model that doesn't pass your smell test - don't buy it! I don't think anyone participating in this discussion will change anyone else's mind. Agree to disagree and leave this poor dead horse alone. Amen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
erik_g Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 As far as I see things, a model kit has four different criteria in which the performance of the kit decides how good the kit is. The criteria are: accuracy, level of detail, ease of build (including fit) and cost of purchase. However, unless a kit is perfect in all categories the best kit is the one which get the best balance. Sounds simple? Well, the perfect balance for one model builder might not be the perfect balance for another. Let´s say a kit scores high on accuracy, level of detail and has good fit, but it´s very expensive. Most people would think it´s a good kit, but some would probably not buy the kit since it is too expensive, but rather go for something cheaper. Something that is fairly accurate, fairly detailed buildable with the help of putty but dirt cheap. What is the correct balance for me? Depends entirely on the subject and my ambition. My basic ambition is that all models I build are as accurate as possible, but the amount of work I am willing to put down varies. As far as the Foxbat is concerned, I am far from an expert, so there I am pretty much left to whatever the kit producer delivers. If I were to build a Foxbat I would value accuracy out of the box and ease of build foremost, since I want to spend as little effort as possible. I would like to pay as little as possible, but that is of less importance if the other two criteria are met. I'd love if there are plenty of detail too. If the kit is cheap I can spend money on Eduard sets to compensate any lack of detail. If the kit is expensive I´d prefer if the level of detail is adequate without after market. As I understand it, the Foxbat kit is a bit lacking in the accuracy department, although apparently not unfixable. What turns me off is that it apparently is a dog to build and that it is quite expensive too. I am sorry, but I am not that much Foxbat fanatic, I rather spend that cash on the Tarangus/MPM Viggen versions, which suffer from pretty much the same imbalance, being slightly inaccurate in some areas, but fixable, but instead suffering poor level of detail and a very high price. I welcome the inputs from the experts regarding accuracy issues on various kits. It allows me to make an informed decision to buy or not. But as I said, accuracy is not everything. Some errors I can live with, some are fixable, some are not so visible, and others can be lived with if the kit is a joy to build. But as a consumer I rather know about them than not. As long as the issues are well described and documented. I too think that it goes over the top sometimes when people look at CAD images using orthogonal projection and compare them to wide angle shots and complains about angles not corresponding. But if there really is a problem I want to know, so that I can decide for myself. /E Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I too think that it goes over the top sometimes when people look at CAD images using orthogonal projection and compare them to wide angle shots and complains about angles not corresponding. But if there really is a problem I want to know, so that I can decide for myself. /E This is why I bought the kit, even though it was far too expensive (left me with no cash to get some other things at that particular show), I wanted to have a close look at it (make up my own opinion) was hoping that what has been written about it in reviews, on topics and shown by KH in another topic was just a misinterpretation of facts, of the actual kit. Just to make sure I went out and had a closer look of the real thing and dug up from my archive thousands of photos previously taken of several 1 to 1 scale Foxbats in various places. It is unwise to express opinion based on CAD’s. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 It is unwise to express opinion based on CAD's. I disagree: you just have to identify what you're seeing and realize what infos you can obtain or can't. The wingtips, the underwing tanks are parallel ? The nose looks too small ? This suggests a parallel projection (orthographic, isometric, etc). This kind of rendering is the best to evaluate the geometry of the model. Perspective projection doesn't allow to do this but surface details (panel lines location, air inlet/outlets, antennas) can still be looked at. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Make a difference between: 1. making corrections to an existing CAD during kit design process when other information’s are also available to help you. (here you are part of the design work) 2. when you already have the plastic it is the best source of info, far better than any computer generated imagery. (here you are a modeller building a kit and making up your opinion of it) These are two completely different things! In the second case I would not use any CAD but the real kit and compare it to the real aeroplane. Best regards Gabor Edited March 13, 2015 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkKnight Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 I thought this was a hobby, one in which the hobbyist sometimes has to do more than glue the parts together and pat themselves on the back. As always happens with these discussions, people start getting testy. Doesn't it boil down to this - some people aren't building a replica for a museum, or even for a contest - they just want the pleasure of sitting at their workbench and building a model they find interesting. They aren't worried about the model being 3mm too short, or a misplaced access panel. They just want to relax and have fun. Aren't those people's opinions just as relevant as those that live for accuracy? If some folks prefer to flame a kit they find to be inaccurate, under-sized, or just bad - well that's their prerogative. Vote with your wallet - if you just can't stand being in the same hemisphere with the KH MiG-25, well then by all means don't buy it! The same goes for any model that doesn't pass your smell test - don't buy it! I don't think anyone participating in this discussion will change anyone else's mind. Agree to disagree and leave this poor dead horse alone. Im not testy and Im not building for a museum, Im building for me. my time is limited, I've bought the kit, the pleasure to me is to build an accurate model of a real aircraft, that means relatively accurate and with proper markings. The problem as I see it is this kit has some flaws that need to be corrected and cannot as it stands be built as an accurate representation of any Mig-25 without significant modifications and aftermarket parts, thats all Im asking for. Aftermarket parts to correct "flaws" or a reissue, I will buy either if it allows me to build a Mig 25 that is reasonably accurate. AS for the Tarnagus Viggen I bought it too, it will require new canards and maybe a new tail fin for accuracy, Im fine with that, make it, cast it in resin and I will buy it. Im not expecting perfection every time, either reissue a corrected kit ala GWH Mig29 or if the aftermarket produces a correction thats great to me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nightfighter Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I thought this was a hobby, one in which the hobbyist sometimes has to do more than glue the parts together and pat themselves on the back. As always happens with these discussions, people start getting testy. Doesn't it boil down to this - some people aren't building a replica for a museum, or even for a contest - they just want the pleasure of sitting at their workbench and building a model they find interesting. They aren't worried about the model being 3mm too short, or a misplaced access panel. They just want to relax and have fun. Aren't those people's opinions just as relevant as those that live for accuracy? If some folks prefer to flame a kit they find to be inaccurate, under-sized, or just bad - well that's their prerogative. Vote with your wallet - if you just can't stand being in the same hemisphere with the KH MiG-25, well then by all means don't buy it! The same goes for any model that doesn't pass your smell test - don't buy it! I don't think anyone participating in this discussion will change anyone else's mind. Agree to disagree and leave this poor dead horse alone. If everyone thought like you then manufacturers wouldn't make any effort to bring out new toolings and make things more accurate. It might have passed your attention but most modellers like things as accurate as possible and it's all very well saying people just want to relax and have fun but inaccurate hard to build models might be fun to you and a few other people but to most people I bet they're a pain in the arse. The front fell off my KH Foxbat even though I made every effort to glue it on firmly and KH didn't even remind people to put the nose weight in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chek Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 God, but I'm so tired of the 'just build it' brigade. Should their plaintive admonitions have ever been listened to, we'd still be building Guillow grade kits (with no disparagement intended to the designers of their time). As it is, acknowledging current market expectations, Airfix have junked their less than 5 year old 1/48 Spitfire Mk.1 in favour of their new version incorporating their step-change in technology. Better is possible. But not if lazy satisfaction with and acceptance of the status quo is accepted. Of course, that outlook may extend well beyond modelling, which is part of the same problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B.Sin Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 It's a model. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chek Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 It's a model. And there are good models, and not so good models. Both cost the buyer money. The value lies in getting a good product for that money, and not subsidising sh*t products. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jgrease Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) If everyone thought like you then manufacturers wouldn't make any effort to bring out new toolings and make things more accurate. It might have passed your attention but most modellers like things as accurate as possible and it's all very well saying people just want to relax and have fun but inaccurate hard to build models might be fun to you and a few other people but to most people I bet they're a pain in the arse. The front fell off my KH Foxbat even though I made every effort to glue it on firmly and KH didn't even remind people to put the nose weight in. Why does this always become personal? Is your opinion more valid than mine? And if you needed to be reminded to put weight in the nose of your model, your issues are deeper than mine will ever be. Grow up and learn to respect the variety of opinions - it a f_cking hobby. And I'd remind Chek of the same. Let me know which model manufacturers are really doing it for the accuracy brigade - every company has dog kits, so spare me. Every time KH comes out with a kit the same characters get behind their keyboards and say the same shite again and again. And I will again remind them nobody is forcing them to buy - vote with your wallet and stop it. Edited March 15, 2015 by jgrease Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B.Sin Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Can't we all get along? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jgrease Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Can't we all get along? Agreed. It's a flippin' hobby, not a way of life. Now let me go and deal with reality... Edited March 15, 2015 by jgrease Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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