Here's something to make you feel old...

[Spruemeister]

Could this be a case of the bad 30219 Tan that faded out into a greenish tint on some Phantoms?

This may very well be photos of what Marv is talking about, although it is not the Euro I scheme.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234964796-b-52d-camo-colours-please/page-4

Rick L.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Spruemeister

[Michael A.]

I was stationed in Norfolk in 1983 and had the opportunity to watch the Thunderbird’s first public practice and acceptance flight at Langley AFB. This was overseen by, I believe, Gen. Creech, a former Thunderbirds pilot and the current TAC Commander. The rumor was going around that Gen. Creech played a major role in the paint scheme applied to the Thunderbird’s F-16s. It was alleged at the time that the General donned white coveralls, claimed on the airplane and used a grease pencil to make the final corrections to the paint scheme before their acceptance flight. His last words to the pilot who was to return the F-16 to the Nellis AFB in order for the paint shop to incorporate his corrections was; “Don’t fly through any rain storms.”

[ReccePhreak]

NOW I feel old!

I saw the Thunderbirds in their Phantoms in '73 at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ. It was my first PCS assignment, after Tech School in Lowry AFB, CO.

They were VERY impressive, especially to a young 2 striper.

I haven't been as impressed with any demo team after that, until I got to USAFE, and saw the different European demo teams. Now those were some impressive displays!!

Larry

[Exhausted]

Of course it's impossible to prove a negative, but it's up to Marv or someone else to come up with photographic proof of a Euro-1 painted F-4 from that timeframe.

You're saying he's wrong over something you never saw? If he saw it then you should be prepared for a surprise. I don't want to start a contest but he has no obligation to present such evidence and his claim should simply go into the "maybe" pile until something proves it one way or the other. Unless you've seen each F-4 in USAF service, I believe that Marv saw something that maybe a hand full of people will remember. Most F-4 photos out there probably aren't online today...

[racerman]

When we took a C-5 for an airshow at Burke Lakefront Airport in Cleveland back in 1973, they were flying F-4s. Later they went to T-38s, which I saw as a bit of a comedown.

Both the Blue Angels/Thunderbirds F-4's actually took off/landed from Cleveland Hopkins airport. The runway at Burke LakeFront was to short for them to use.

Edited December 7, 2014 by racerman

[habu2]

You're saying he's wrong over something you never saw? If he saw it then you should be prepared for a surprise. I don't want to start a contest but he has no obligation to present such evidence and his claim should simply go into the "maybe" pile until something proves it one way or the other. Unless you've seen each F-4 in USAF service, I believe that Marv saw something that maybe a hand full of people will remember. Most F-4 photos out there probably aren't online today...

Photographic proof trumps human memory, especially from 40 years ago. I don't think anyone is calling Marv a liar but a photo is the only real way to defend his claim. Every "Thunderbird Lizard" photo I've seen has been in SEA camo. Remember, the 'Birds were most likely borrowing line birds from the 57th at Nellis so they were painted however the 57th was painting their line jets.

[SR10user]

I was in ROTC and went to my first airshow at Kissimmee Fl with fellow ARC member and BFF thegoodsgt. It was the Blue Angels in A-4's and was awesome. The next year I went to MacDill AFB and saw the T-Birds in F-16's and was blown away.

I always thought this was an awesome picture. TB and BA together!.

Perhaps a view of things to come? T-bird next gen.

Sincerely,

Dave

[falcon20driver]

Perhaps a view of things to come? T-bird next gen.

Sincerely,

Dave

Think about the show the Blues could put on flying the B models!

[ThePhantomTwo]

I wouldn't be surprised if evidence of Marv's claims surfaces.... When it comes to music there are sometimes very unusual claims about certain songs being around several years before they were recorded and released and people don't know whether or not to believe the claims. Yet, decades later an audio recording taken from someone's hat surfaces verifying the original claim!

I would be very surprised if such evidence would pop up at all, several Thunderbird team members from those days always had a camera handy,not to mention the official photographer for the team,very hard to believe no one ever except one person has made any claim or given photographic evidence of a "charcoal lizard" Thunderbird F-4E for nearly 40 years.Pop into one of the Thunderbird alumni sites and ask,they would the ultimate people to know if one existed.I asked this question on a couple of them,hopefully the team members from the F-4E days will clarify this.

[Rocky]

Scott R Wilson, on 05 December 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Of course it's impossible to prove a negative, but it's up to Marv or someone else to come up with photographic proof of a Euro-1 painted F-4 from that timeframe.

You're saying he's wrong over something you never saw? If he saw it then you should be prepared for a surprise. I don't want to start a contest but he has no obligation to present such evidence and his claim should simply go into the "maybe" pile until something proves it one way or the other.

I don't think Scott is saying it shouldn't be on the "maybe" pile, just that it's never going to go anywhere else until someone comes up with a photo. The burden of proof is on the affirmative. And it can only be proven one way, not the other. Like Scott wrote, you can't prove a negative.

[Rocky]

I always thought this was an awesome picture. TB and BA together!.

Sincerely,

Dave

If a Thunderbirds F-4 touched a Blue Angels F-4, would they both explode in a burst of gamma rays?

[chriss7606]

This is at Burke Lakefront Airport as a memorial for the National Air Races: http://www.shinforce.com/cool/cnas/2009/index.htm

They are both nicely restored and presented. I'll try to post my own photos of them this weekend.

[Scott R Wilson]

You're saying he's wrong over something you never saw? If he saw it then you should be prepared for a surprise. I don't want to start a contest but he has no obligation to present such evidence and his claim should simply go into the "maybe" pile until something proves it one way or the other. Unless you've seen each F-4 in USAF service, I believe that Marv saw something that maybe a hand full of people will remember. Most F-4 photos out there probably aren't online today...

I am saying I believe Marv is mistaken, and unless he or someone else can produce a Euro-1 painted Phantom photographed before 1974, I will continue to say I believe he is mistaken.

Nothing wrong with that, several times I've replied to someone's questions about details of the F-4 which I answered from my memories of having worked on F-4Cs and Es for five years and having photographed hundreds of F-4s of all models from the late 70s through early 90s, and then when I checked my references I found I had mis-remembered the details. I've even sarcastically mentioned that I love it when I prove myself wrong. Memories can change and be incorrect. That's why I say I want to see photographic proof before I accept something from someone that is counter to all I have seen and think I know. And if you're mistaken, be a man and admit it. Far too many people seem to feel they can never admit to being wrong about anything. FWIW, I am often wrong, just ask my wife!

That being said, Michael Jacobssen, a former crew chief with the Thunderbirds when they flew F-4Es has some good photos of the training F-4Es they flew. All have tan, not gray, in the camouflage. Here are the photos from his Facebook page, with not a gray-green camouflaged one in the bunch. Of course that only proves that when these photos were taken they were green/tan, not that on another day they didn't have green/gray. But I am still very skeptical that gray/green F-4Es existed back then. Here are the photos:

Edited December 12, 2014 by Scott R Wilson