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Chris the cabbie

Cuban and E. German MiG-21s(and Angola!) decals?

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Whkle doing some research on the Cuban MiG-21 that defected to NAS Key West in the 1990's I discovered something! Both the Cuban and Angolan(actually Cuban MiGs) had limited Spanish stencils. The E. German birds had German stencils. While I know this shouldn't be too surprising, what are we as modelers to do for stencils? I have looked at many of the sheets(Aeromaster, Afterburner or Berna) and NONE bothered to supply stencils at all?! Worse still, Eduard only seem to make stencils in Russian or Czech. Any suggestions on how to a complish this major feet as I have photos to prove my point on the stencil languages, just can't post pics at the moment. Any help from the experten would be appreciated!

Regards,

Chris

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I did the Afterburner sheets. We "didn't bother" with stencils because...

1. Do you have any clue what's required to do them? You don't just magically type them into your computer. Each and every character has to be drawn by hand, then assembled into words one at a time (assuming you want them accurate).

2. Do you have highly detailed references for all of the stencil data on the MiG-21s in every language? Didn't think so.

3. Would you be willing to pay at least half again as much for the resulting decal if 1 & 2 above were met? Didn't think so.

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No need to get testy Jennings as no slight was intended. It IS odd that all the major decal companies seem to think Russian is the only language period. Eduard is trying to do something but I suspect Czech made the cut do homefield advantage?? I am not hopefull that others will follow and Begmot has bupkis other than Russian. A quick perusal of Primeportal has a good walkaround of an Angolan(read Cuban FISHBED MF) that crash landed in S Afrika and is preserved. The E German ones are pretty clear from the close ups as clearly being NOT Russian. I am simply wondering what is out there I don't know about or could be used. LAURENT, YA-GABOR could you guys add anything? I ask as you both post regularly on the MiG-21 topics and are QUITE the experten.

Thanks guys,

Chris

P.S. JENNINGS on option 1-no but if I was producing decals there would be more out there than there is now in 1/72 as the need sure looks to be there judging by modelers in this forum being any indicator!

Option 2- if the Russian stencils are a good baseline, use Begmot' sheet then translate using photos to confirm where possible.

Option 3- my answer is HELL YES I WOULD!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Chris the cabbie

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I wasn't being testy. But your post makes it completely clear that you don't have a clue why they don't exist (and you still don't).

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...I was producing decals there would be more out there than there is now in 1/72...

Show of hands for those who can read stencils (in any language) in 1/72nd scale.

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mrvark,

you're making an assumption on scale! No one needs stenciling in that scale to be readable! LOL I neglected to mention scale but was talking about 1/48 as Afterburner didn't make 1/72 MiG-21 sheets did they Jennings???????

Regards

Chris

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I wasn't being testy. But your post makes it completely clear that you don't have a clue why they don't exist (and you still don't).

Jennings,

Perhaps you should contact Begmot and tell them what a mistake they are making by doing all those stenciling sheets then? They sure seem to sell well on eBay and at shows so, who doesn't have a clue??

Regards

Chris

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As Jennings said if the references aren't there how can anyone make them to be representative of the real thing . Doing direct translation from one language to another is just asking for trouble, English to Spanish would be bad enough but Russian!!

English: Danger Ejection Seat

to Spanish: Peligro de eyección del asiento

to Russian: Опасность выброса сиденья

back to Spanish: Asiento eyectable Peligro

back to English: Ejection Seat Danger

Ok the meaning is the same but you can see some of the problems that would be encountered.

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As Jennings said if the references aren't there how can anyone make them to be representative of the real thing.

However, in this case, the references for at least some languages are available. I can understand that the effort of making stencils in other languages for the MiG-21 may not be worth it from a business point of view, but the information is there if someone really wanted to do it. I have access to the MiG-21MF at Zwartkops AFB in South Africa for example, although the primeportal walkaround is already pretty good:

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/philip_homann/mig-21mf/

That being said, I typically prefer to build Soviet or Russian aircraft, and Begemot and LindenHill already produce good stencil sheets for most of the more popular MiGs and Sukhois in Russian.

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As Jennings said if the references aren't there how can anyone make them to be representative of the real thing . Doing direct translation from one language to another is just asking for trouble, English to Spanish would be bad enough but Russian!!

English: Danger Ejection Seat

to Spanish: Peligro de eyección del asiento

to Russian: Опасность выброса сиденья

back to Spanish: Asiento eyectable Peligro

back to English: Ejection Seat Danger

Ok the meaning is the same but you can see some of the problems that would be encountered.

I do understand your point but at the same time there are good references out there. Just from the internet, there are lots of walkarounds and modelers in said user countries that would love to see something like this for their countries aircraft. Who wouldn't want some Finnish stenciling for a 1/48 MiG-21bis?? Everyone could clearly see these in the 1980's!! I have no problem with references being needed but there does seem to be a double standard going on here. For a decal manufacturer, supplying a set of decals of a 1/48 F-16 without stenciling would get called out(also why many DO have stenciling?) but when a MiG cimes up- it doesn't even matter?

Perhaps instead of trying to cram lots of options on a sheet(and leaving it incomplete) reduce the number of schemes and supply stenciling? As far as the MiG-21 goes, to give Cuba AND Angola would be a two'fer as both,are in Spanish and not full stenciling but partial as photos show. This would leave room for more in another language but no for us non-western a/c builders it seems.

Regards

Chris

Edited by Chris the cabbie

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I do understand your point but at the same time there are good references out there. Just from the internet, there are lots of walkarounds and modelers in said user countries that would love to see something like this for their countries aircraft. Who wouldn't want some Finnish stenciling for a 1/48 MiG-21bis?? Everyone could clearly see these in the 1980's!! I have no problem with references being needed but there does seem to be a double standard going on here. For a decal manufacturer, supplying a set of decals of a 1/48 F-16 without stenciling would get called out(also why many DO have stenciling?) but when a MiG cimes up- it doesn't even matter?

Perhaps instead of trying to cram lots of options on a sheet(and leaving it incomplete) reduce the number of schemes and supply stenciling? As far as the MiG-21 goes, to give Cuba AND Angola would be a two'fer as both,are in Spanish and not full stenciling but partial as photos show. This would leave room for more in another language but no for us non-western a/c builders it seems.

Regards

Chris

Show us your reference picture/s then.

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As Jennings said if the references aren't there how can anyone make them to be representative of the real thing . Doing direct translation from one language to another is just asking for trouble, English to Spanish would be bad enough but Russian!!

English: Danger Ejection Seat

to Spanish: Peligro de eyección del asiento

to Russian: Опасность выброса сиденья

back to Spanish: Asiento eyectable Peligro

back to English: Ejection Seat Danger

Ok the meaning is the same but you can see some of the problems that would be encountered.

Well I support having complete stencils on decal sheets. Why investing hours and hours to built the model as exact as possible and the stumble on the finish line because I only have the main markings?

The above mentioned argument of direct translation does also not count in my view.

Danger Ejection Seat is Peligro Asiento Eyectable in Spanish. Of course if you translate wrongly it loses sense. (your translation states Danger of ejection of the seat btw.) My Russian is not good enough anymore but Danger means Опасно not Опасность. Just look at the tail boom of a Russian Hind helo, it's written there in big letters.

And having companies claiming to be the most accurate but purposely omitting stencils because it's too hard to produce them isn't most accurate for me. If they omitted these on a lets say Viper Sheet, there was a big uproar. It's the same like omitting crew names because there wasn't a close up ref pic available. And please don't come with the argument of me having to produce my own sheets. If you as a decal manufacturer decide to tackle a certain subject you should make sure that you'll be able to walk the whole mile. I am the customer and will pay good and more money to get your product if it's right. If not I'll try to find different sources and if enough potential customers eventually decide to do so, it might turn out to be not good for your company.

Btw there were a lot of MiGs which had English stencils. These where the ones sold to Arab countries. Some of them apparently ended up in eastern block countries by accident or not. Some of these MiGs even missed some maintainence hatches while the original ones intended for Warsaw Pact states had all of them. Apparently Russian engineers figured that these jets did not survive long enough in the Middle East to reach the flight hours for some scheduled maintenance which required these hatches. There are some really interesting discussions every once in a while on German modeling forums where some real MiG experts ( who worked and flew them) use to hang out.

v/r

Scout

Edited by SCOUT712

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Well I support having complete stencils on decal sheets. Why investing hours and hours to built the model as exact as possible and the stumble on the finish line because I only have the main markings?

The above mentioned argument of direct translation does also not count in my view.

Danger Ejection Seat is Peligro Asiento Eyectable in Spanish. Of course if you translate wrongly it loses sense. (your translation states Danger of ejection of the seat btw.) My Russian is not good enough anymore but Danger means Опасно not Опасность. Just look at the tail boom of a Russian Hind helo, it's written there in big letters there.

And having companies claiming to be the most accurate but purposely omitting stencils because it's to hard to produce them isn't most accurate for me. If they omitted these on an lets say Viper Sheet, there was a big uproar. It's the same like omitting crew names because there wasn't a close up ref pic available. And please don't come with the argument of me having to produce my own sheets. If you as a decal manufacturer decide to tackle a certain subject you should make sure that you'll be able to walk the whole mile. I am the customer and will pay good and more money to get your product if it's right. If not I'll try to find different sources and if enough potential customers eventually decide to do so, it might turn out to be not good for your company.

Btw there were a lot of MiGs which had English stencils. These where the ones sold to Arab countries. Some of them apparently ended up in eastern block countries by accident or not. Some of these MiGs even missed some maintainence hatches while the original ones intended for Warsaw Pact states had all of them. Apparently Russian engineers figured that these jets did not survive long enough in the Middle East to reach the flight hours for some scheduled maintenance which required these hatches. There are some really interesting discussions every once in a while on German modeling forums where some real MiG experts ( who worked and flew them) use to hang out.

v/r

Scout

Thank you for chiming in as the decal guys just come off like third graders spoiling for a playground fight by the attitudes displayed(in my eyes at least). A valid question about the clear omission on all the MiG-21(not to mention all the other MiGs!). As for my references, just start looking yourself!

Primeportal(Angolan/Cuban

Dishmodels.ru(Finnish)

To name just two sites and thats to say nothing about printed refs. The point is still the same, why is it okay to do an F(insert-14,15,16, 18) and include some stenciling(or release a stenciling sheet seperatly) but give zilch on non-western subjects? It does look to be that Soviet/Russian a/c(frowned on before the millenium) is now in vogue due to current releases(and interest!) but still second class with the decal clique- unless they want to cash in on it that is. I do understand that all things can't sell(from a production standpoint) but how can anyone argue that 1/48 MiG-21 kits from Eduard are NOT SELLING??(to say nothing about 1/32 scale either).

I am currently talking with a company outside the US that may be interested so for the member in S Afrika, I may be cotacting you later if thats okay? Its kind of odd to have to print up something yourself that SHOULD have been provided by aftermarket- especially when you paid for it?!

Regards

Chris

Edited by Chris the cabbie

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I am currently talking with a company outside the US that may be interested so for the member in S Afrika, I may be cotacting you later if thats okay? Its kind of odd to have to print up something yourself that SHOULD have been provided by aftermarket- especially when you paid for it?!

No problem. I wouldn't mind taking a Saturday morning off to go take some walkaround pictures of the Angolan MiG. I'm leaving for an overseas holiday tomorrow, but will be back in South Africa the second week of January. One can get access to the cockpit also, but from what I recall the cockpit warning labels are all still in Russian, it seems to be just the external stencils that are not. By the way, I have never bothered to check: Are the stencils in Spanish (for Cuban purposes) or Portuguese (language spoken in Angola)? If in Portuguese, the application will obviously not extend to Cuban MiGs. I seem to recall some aircraft were delivered directly from the Soviet Union, but most via Cuba, although not necessarily ex-Cuban Air Force. I am not sure about this particular example. Here is some useful information:

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=127&Itemid=62

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No problem. I wouldn't mind taking a Saturday morning off to go take some walkaround pictures of the Angolan MiG. I'm leaving for an overseas holiday tomorrow, but will be back in South Africa the second week of January. One can get access to the cockpit also, but from what I recall the cockpit warning labels are all still in Russian, it seems to be just the external stencils that are not. By the way, I have never bothered to check: Are the stencils in Spanish (for Cuban purposes) or Portuguese (language spoken in Angola)? If in Portuguese, the application will obviously not extend to Cuban MiGs. I seem to recall some aircraft were delivered directly from the Soviet Union, but most via Cuba, although not necessarily ex-Cuban Air Force. I am not sure about this particular example. Here is some useful information:

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=127&Itemid=62

Thanks for the link Mfezi!

On the language on the MIG-21MF in S Afrika, if you look at the underside pics on Primeportal you'll see they are in Spanish. I took a couple of years of it in high school here and judt can't bring myself to use Russian or Czech stenciling on my Cuban bis. An interesting thing about that a/c is that even though Navy personnel were able to examine it thoroughly they couldn't tell it was a bis and THOUGHT IT WAS AN MF! One thing is for sure, it was in god awful condition when it got there. Personnel that looked it over said the brakes were bad, the tires bald and it was leaking from every access panel- not a good sign. I'll contact you soon as I hear back from the decal company on the first project we have in the works finishes.

From the photos I have of the Cuban bis and thr Angolan(re Cuban) MF a reduced number of stencils are being used but the nose gear bay is rich in stencils! The sheet should'nt be too hard and could yeild a couple of builds easily. The German idea went over VERY well and our local decal clique may well have some competition soon enough.

Regards

Chris

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Thank you for chiming in as the decal guys just come off like third graders spoiling for a playground fight by the attitudes displayed(in my eyes at least). A valid question about the clear omission on all the MiG-21(not to mention all the other MiGs!). As for my references, just start looking yourself!

If you have all the references then why don't you make up a set yourself, or extend it to a run of 500 sheets getting Cartograph or Microscale to print it for you making you a tidy little profit in the long term?

With regards to the attitudes that you mention I fail to see where you're coming from on that, there is certainly no one on here spoiling for a playground fight.

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If you have all the references then why don't you make up a set yourself, or extend it to a run of 500 sheets getting Cartograph or Microscale to print it for you making you a tidy little profit in the long term?

With regards to the attitudes that you mention I fail to see where you're coming from on that, there is certainly no one on here spoiling for a playground fight.

SCOTTHLDR,

What you fail to see is clear by the condescending and snide remarks in post #2 of this thread and by YOUR one sentence missive in your second response. I honestly am at a loss to explain the anti social behavior that the web draws out. I attacked no one in my first post but, this is what it attracted. Scotthldr, you were called out on your first post by another member on claiming there are NO REFERENCES. I clearly stated in the first post that I am currently unable to post pics as I am using a hand held device sorry if that upsets you. As for not seeing any attitudes well, when condescension and snide remarks get thrown around then that IS how it starts. If you would bother to read my entire post you will see that it is already underway by my own effort, not yours or jennings. I am doing this because it needs to be done as those supposed ACCURATE decal sheets sure didn't have'em did they???

I am not into bring,a producer of kits or decals but have done both(resin slinging and decal work on the ALPS). Before you(or jennings) ask, the decals I made were internal stencils for German AFVs that I later sold the artwork to Verlinden, not produced as well either. I even offered Francios the translation for all the titles/lines but the offer(free I might add!) was turned down, go figure?! I am not into producing anymore, just trying to build what I have.

Regards

Chris

Edited by Chris the cabbie

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Balkan Models did a great job with Yugoslav stencils on their exercise MiG-21 sheet. Eduard did jibba jabba for the Croatian white stencils on their bis D - but still better than none. I could be ok with partially readable stencils (the really small ones). IMHO they don't have to be 100% accurate in means of visibility. For me that is still way better than no stencils at all.

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Ok now a little help here?On which language stencils are on Arab MiG-21MF's?I would like to made Egypt MiG-21MF from their conflict with Israel.Thank you.

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17 hours ago, Nino_Belov said:

Ok now a little help here?On which language stencils are on Arab MiG-21MF's?I would like to made Egypt MiG-21MF from their conflict with Israel.Thank you.

I have seen both French and English version. Believe they sent to planes with stencils of the most accepted foreign language. 

One has to look at the particular airframe and country of operation. Sorry it is hard, but that is the only way.

 

I believe there is (was) in the past a MiG-23 left back in Belgrade from overhaul, not delivered becouse of sanctions. Was it a Libian one. It would be interesting to have a closer look at it to see what kind of stencils it has. This could provide some kind of indication as to what was used. 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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There are German stencils here: https://www.tailormadedecals.com/decals/jets/mig-21/airworld-15/luftstreikraefte-der-nva/mig-21-nva-wartungsbeschriftung-981-wasserschiebebilder.html?language=de

Ok, the price..:woot.gif:.  Edit: Scale is 1:9...

 

NVA airforce got some MiG-21, obviously originally planned for Arab countries (Syria?). All stencils and documentation was english.

Edited by Floggerman

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