Message to North Korean special forces

[Moggy]

Hi Jennings!

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD Excellent! :)

Cheers, Moggy - who thinks the whole debacle is hilarious; they should make a GOOD movie about this!

[MoFo]

Also: this has nothing to do with any sort of 'conspiracy theory'. It's a pretty widely held opinion among the cybersecurity community. Nobody *knows* who hacked Sony. The most likely scenario is that it was an individual/individuals, *not* state actors, and that it's a run of the mill corporate ransom, rather than trying to get a movie's release stopped.

Sony was hacked by GOP on 24 November. In fact, they were hacked back in February, and evidence suggests it may have been by the same group. Their initial demands were seemingly financial. It wasn't until the whole 'North Korean Hackers' thing started gaining traction in the media that GOP started mentioning *anything* about the film in question. It was another full week later (some three weeks after the initial hack and ransom demands) that they claimed they wanted the film pulled. Which suggests the hackers are using it as obfuscation - they're happy to let people think they're North Korean is it means they stay hidden.

Which is why the FBI doubted that North Korea had any involvement whatsoever: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/dec/10/fbi-doubts-north-korea-link-sony-pictures-hack

(but hey, it's a simple, easy, convenient story, so let's just run with it)

The FBI is now claiming that North Korea was involved. That's being disputed by a large proportion of the cybersecurity community. The core or their argument is that the hack used a commercially available product which was used in a hack on South Korean banks last year and Saudi Aramco two years ago. The South Korean hack was initially blamed on China, then North Korea. The Saudi hack was initially blamed on Iran. Both claims have since been retracted, and common consensus is that both attacks were carried out by individual hacktivist groups. Another part of their argument is that part of the files seem to have been coded on computers set to use Korean as a default language... except this is so *ridiculously* easy to spoof as to be largely meaningless.

http://marcrogers.org/2014/12/18/why-the-sony-hack-is-unlikely-to-be-the-work-of-north-korea/

http://www.wired.com/2014/12/sony-hack-what-we-know/

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/reaction-to-the-sony-hack-is-beyond-the-realm-of-stupid

https://www.riskbasedsecurity.com/2014/12/a-breakdown-and-analysis-of-the-december-2014-sony-hack/#attributionguessinggameperspective

http://0paste.com/6875#md

http://krypt3ia.wordpress.com/2014/12/20/fauxtribution/

http://www.wired.com/2014/12/evidence-of-north-korea-hack-is-thin/

At the end of the day, the only people who *know* who the hackers were are the hackers themselves. And while the simple, convenient scapegoat is North Korea, the preponderance of evidence shows that this is pretty unlikely. It was most likely a random hacker group, probably involving at least one former Sony participant (evidence suggests someone laid off in March 2014), not some crazy/evil dictator.

As for the film... it's not a great victory against censorship; it was Sony that wanted to censor in the first place - they're the ones who planned to pull it from theaters. And it is Sony that is currently trying to censor journalists and media outlets reporting on the hacks. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/15/business/sony-pictures-demands-that-news-organizations-delete-stolen-data.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1 Not to mention threatening to sue Twitter: http://www.scribd.com/doc/250802459/Sony-Letter-to-Twitter So watching the movie isn't really supporting free speech, it's giving money to a company that's trying to stifle it.

But, trying to make the best of a bad situation, Sony PR is trying to frame it as a matter of patriotism and national pride: you've got to watch the movie, or else the terrorists will win. They will lose their shirts on its release; it had a $100 million budget and was supposed to be shown on 3000 screens, but took in a mere $1 million on 300 or so screens on opening night (this is a disaster)... but it's better to lose $90 mil than $100 mil, and by positioning it as a brave and patriotic act, they're hoping to make it a viral success and minimize the damage. That it's now being released and the way Sony are handling it is simple marketing.

[vince14]

MoFo is right - the hackers were NOT North Korean but, in all likelihood, a well-known Russian hacking group. The question remains as to whether they did it for their own amusement or were paid to do it by either a national government or private concern.

And I might not work for the NSA, but I have been in the Cyber Security industry for many years now (including working on the forensics of the Saudi Aramco hack), and I own an Information Security company. Which I guess makes me more qualified on the subject than practically anyone else on this board.

Vince

[vince14]

why would a private group of hackers do this?

That's an attitude I see regularly in boardrooms across the globe. "Hey, we're only a Pharmaceutical/Media/Energy/Whatever company, we're not the CIA or NASA. Why would anyone want to hack us?" - which is usually followed by the sound of jaws hitting the floor when you show them evidence of how badly infiltrated their systems are.

Vince

[Exhausted]

You mean the way our Cuba policy has "worked" for the past 53 years?

No. If America didn't exist, the DPRK would still enslave its whole population. I applaud the common sense decision on Cuba. The history of Cuba, since it fell into the American sphere of influence, has been extremely different to the DPRK, which has turned into a complete insane asylum. We have ties to the Cubans, and our shifting demographics have increased those ties to the point where it's extremely tough to try to justify the Cuban embargo while holding a straight face. Korea is different. The DPRK is now the sole attack dog for China and Russia, and as such, they use it to do what North Korea, Cuba, and several other satellites used to accomplish.

[vince14]

The DPRK is now the sole attack dog for China and Russia, and as such, they use it to do what North Korea, Cuba, and several other satellites used to accomplish.

Since 'Lil Un' came into power, I'm not sure that China and Russia have that much influence over North Korea anymore.

Vince

[habu2]

I'm reading articles online that point to "Lena", a disgruntled ex-Sony employee with ties to GoP.

Hey I read it on the internets so it must be true. Right Al Gore?

[11bee]

No intention of watching this movie, so I did my part to stand up to Commie terrorism by watching Team America again.

I think this entire issue will go down as the biggest "non-story" of 2014.

[Scooby]

Really? What office do you work in at NSA?

The same one that you work for.

[Jennings]

The same one that you work for.

Exactly (although I did work there when I was a Signals Intelligence officer in the Air Force....).

So that means you know as much about it as anyone else who doesn't work at NSA.

[Exhausted]

Since 'Lil Un' came into power, I'm not sure that China and Russia have that much influence over North Korea anymore.

Vince

Yes they do. Basically, any time they want to take the heat off themselves they can give N Korea weapons, repairs, or money, which will then be used to threaten S Korea and tie up the USA. They have a huge advantage because their investments with the DPRK go much further than ours

[toadwbg]

I hope something good comes out of this, like Sony selling the rights for Spiderman movies back yo to Marvel/Disney.

[zerosystem]

I hope something good comes out of this, like Sony selling the rights for Spiderman movies back yo to Marvel/Disney.

You don't want the Aunt May movie? lol

[vince14]

Yes they do. Basically, any time they want to take the heat off themselves they can give N Korea weapons, repairs, or money, which will then be used to threaten S Korea and tie up the USA. They have a huge advantage because their investments with the DPRK go much further than ours

They might have more influence than the West, but they have nowhere near as much influence as they used to when his dad ran the show.

Vince

[SBARC]

They might have more influence than the West, but they have nowhere near as much influence as they used to when his dad ran the show.

Vince

or his granddad....now there was a hard core Stalinist.

Most North Korean defectors in South Korea figure North Korea has less than 10 years before it implodes. When it does implode....south Korea will be heavily burdened rebuilding North Korea...much like West Germans paid a reunification tax when the 2 Germanys reunited.

[Don]

They might have more influence than the West, but they have nowhere near as much influence as they used to when his dad ran the show.

Vince

I'd agree with this.

Don.

[Scooby]

Exactly (although I did work there when I was a Signals Intelligence officer in the Air Force....).

So that means you know as much about it as anyone else who doesn't work at NSA.

You do realize I was responding to Mofo and not you? He posted the exact same line you posted to him.

I'm at the Abingdon Cinemall, theater number 10 (to the left as you enter the lobby). I'm here to see what by all accounts will probably be a really lousy film about your whack job fat boy dictator. The address is 721 E. Main St, Abingdon, Virginia 24210. Come get me!!

Based on the start of this thread I thought we agreed it was Norh Korea.

[Johnopfor]

Most North Korean defectors in South Korea figure North Korea has less than 10 years before it implodes. When it does implode....south Korea will be heavily burdened rebuilding North Korea...much like West Germans paid a reunification tax when the 2 Germanys reunited.

I remember hearing the same analysis 23 years ago when I was in South Korea....and they thought that things would change when Kim part 1 kicked the kimchee. Now, Mini-Kim has apparently picked up his dad's lessons (Kim the Dos) and eliminated anyone who he thought was closer to good old Pop, than the spoiled brat. The situation between the two Koreas is much different than that of the two Germanys. Start with the fact that East Germany didn't throw an occasional temper tantrum that cost lives in West Germany. The Kims weren't afraid to shed South Korean blood whenever they thought it would get them attention. Most East Germans had better access to Western programming than the average North Korean. Although more programming is getting smuggled in, it's mostly South Korean family programming, games and music...not too much to start a revolution. To top it off as long as Kim keeps the Armed Forces fed and (semi-)fat by keeping them on top of the food chain....even at the cost of the general population (see North Korean famine during the 1990s), they'll fight to keep it. Despite all of the "crazy" things that the current Kimmy has done (sunk South Korean frigate, artillery strike on South Korean island, shut down economic zone and popular tourist attraction), he's doing it to isolate his population to keep his dream alive.......and he's gotten away with it too.

[SBARC]

All very valid points "Johnopfor"....thanks.

[Scooby]

I remember hearing the same analysis 23 years ago when I was in South Korea....and they thought that things would change when Kim part 1 kicked the kimchee. Now, Mini-Kim has apparently picked up his dad's lessons (Kim the Dos) and eliminated anyone who he thought was closer to good old Pop, than the spoiled brat. The situation between the two Koreas is much different than that of the two Germanys. Start with the fact that East Germany didn't throw an occasional temper tantrum that cost lives in West Germany. The Kims weren't afraid to shed South Korean blood whenever they thought it would get them attention. Most East Germans had better access to Western programming than the average North Korean. Although more programming is getting smuggled in, it's mostly South Korean family programming, games and music...not too much to start a revolution. To top it off as long as Kim keeps the Armed Forces fed and (semi-)fat by keeping them on top of the food chain....even at the cost of the general population (see North Korean famine during the 1990s), they'll fight to keep it. Despite all of the "crazy" things that the current Kimmy has done (sunk South Korean frigate, artillery strike on South Korean island, shut down economic zone and popular tourist attraction), he's doing it to isolate his population to keep his dream alive.......and he's gotten away with it too.

It would take a lot of bloodshed for that regime to fall apart. I am afraid he is solidly in power and the only replacement is another brutal leader.

It isn't helpful the Russia sides with North Korea either.

[Exhausted]

They might have more influence than the West, but they have nowhere near as much influence as they used to when his dad ran the show.

Vince

The though-provoking piece of this message is the word "might," as in the West may have more influence than the East here. In this case, I would appreciate the argument as to why an ounce of effort by the West goes further than the same amount from the East.

Though the returns are diminishing, the old Eastern actors still have to be cleared before American policy has any effect there. If it was the Americans the Chinese and Russians have to clear before talks on nuclear-disarmament proceeded then I'd agree with you, but since it's not then I'm inclined to recognize that Russia and China still hold many "keys" in North Korea policy that the US doesn't. I recognize that it's changing, however there is no basis to imply that the US has the last word in changing the DPRK. That position still lies in China and Russia.

[vince14]

The though-provoking piece of this message is the word "might," as in the West may have more influence than the East here. In this case, I would appreciate the argument as to why an ounce of effort by the West goes further than the same amount from the East.

Though the returns are diminishing, the old Eastern actors still have to be cleared before American policy has any effect there. If it was the Americans the Chinese and Russians have to clear before talks on nuclear-disarmament proceeded then I'd agree with you, but since it's not then I'm inclined to recognize that Russia and China still hold many "keys" in North Korea policy that the US doesn't. I recognize that it's changing, however there is no basis to imply that the US has the last word in changing the DPRK. That position still lies in China and Russia.

Sorry, it's 'might' as in an absolute, not 'might' as in 'might or might not'.

Vince

[Exhausted]

Right on... in regards to this movie, I might have to indulge Bob Marley style and plan to watch it back-to-back with Pineapple Express to begin to appreciate Seth Rogan's latest effort.

[Jennings]

It would take a lot of bloodshed for that regime to fall apart. I am afraid he is solidly in power and the only replacement is another brutal leader.

They said the same thing about the USSR in 1991, and East Germany in 1989, and Nazi Germany in 1944. Regimes who survive by subjugating people with terror teeter on a very thin razor's edge. It doesn't take much to topple them once the pieces are in place.

[Wizard_rkt]

They must not be allowed mirrors in NK. Why do they have their leader with such an amusing haircut??? Pudgy pig-faced and Gout-ridden creature with a bad haircut. I want to see this guy (Is he really a guy or a walking pig?) around for a long time. It makes me laugh when everybody attempts to take him seriously. Bad genes are that nation's finest??? I want to see this guy cowering like all the rest when he realizes his people have turned on him.....and they eventually will. Then again, that is what genocide is for.