ya-gabor Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Why, oh why??? There seems to be some kind of dislike by the Czech kit manufacturers of the MiG-21 bis aircraft. The latest release is from RV in the 72nd scale. A new sprue for the fuselage is accompanied by the common sprue for the other Fishbeds. OK there are minimal changes to the common sprue like with the absence of the oval panel on top of the wings. Please find below some points of interest. All I can do is to show the original MiG-21 bis aircraft, to show what some of the questionable details look like on the real aircraft. It is all up to the modelers to make their choice. This look is only at the new MiG-21 bis kit and I don’t want to go into the problems with the rest of the fuselage which where common with all the earlier releases by RV ( the list is long). Back to the new MiG-21 bis kit: A new spine was grafted onto the original RV fuselage which seems to be a slightly cut back version of the SMT spine. Based on the photos of the sprues it is too wide after the cockpit and before the fin narrows too fast going to the after end of the fuselage. The way it fits into the fin is also strange. Please have a look at the original bis spine and compare it with the kit. I don’t want to make any mention of the nose part on the RV kit as well as some of the panel line differences . . . As a help to those planning to build the kit: Please note that on the 5th page of the instruction sheet Part 32 (two of them) are shown the wrong way around. These are the small intakes (“ears”) on the GS-23L gun cover (part 31). They should be looking forward. This is a mistake often made by both manufacturers as well as modelers. Here is what the real intakes (ears) on the MiG-21 bis look like: Also note that the MiG-21 bis used a new wheel version (it has a flat surface on the inner side) from the previous ones (the had holes in them). The instruction sheet tells you to use Part 42, but these are the ones for the earlier versions of the Fishbed like the R, M, MF, SMT. The RV instruction sheet was not up dated so there are no numbers given to the other set of wheels on the opposite side of the sprue. Those are supposed to be for the later vesrions with a flat inner surface. The common photoetch sheet has some parts specially for the bis version. These are the RSBN antennas of the landing system. Part E14 looks something like the RSBN antenna (wrong shape) but there should be two of them. Instead what we get is Part E20 (under the nose) and E21 (top of the fin) which look like a profile view of the RSBN antenna. I am not sure if this is a copy of the Eduard kit, but they too made similar parts (Part J11 and J26). At least Eduard has provided the actual RSBN antennas separately and they do look like the real thing. The RV designed antenna is wrong in shape and too big, almost 48th scale. End of part one Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Yep, I give up on RV. I was so, so excited when I first heard about them and their MiG-23's. I believe my exact quote in here after seeing the sprue shots was "I think this is the one we've been waiting for!" But now, after coughing up to their huge price tag and actually trying to BUILD their MiG-23, I am now eating those words. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Part two. So here is the RSBN antenna the way Eduard has reproduced it for the 48th scale kit. It looks good, something similar would have been good to have on the photoetch sheet of the RV kit in 72 scale. Here is the real thing, first in profile, and from this view it does look like the representation on the etched sheet, but the real thing is not a flat, 2 dimensional object. And here is from the side and under so the "wings" are visible: The decal sheet is wrong with the Hungarian markings, it is a copy of the Eduard decal. The problem with it is the shape of the chevron. Completely wrong proportions! They simply copied the Eduard version. Why, it is not clear! Here is what they have copied: The RV designers almost got the Hungarian markings right for the MiG-21MF kit (72029) so it is not clear why would they copy mindlessly the Eduard instruction and the decals. Funny part of the thing is the national marking is a very simple geometrical shape with very precise proportions and equal ratios between colours. So WHY do it the way RV did????????? The aircraft numbers were far too big on the Eduard sheet, I am not sure if they have copied that too . . . Here is what the real Hungarian national marking chevron looks like. For the Hungarian aircraft the instruction sheet says: “47th Combat Air Regiment, Griff Squadron, Papa AB Hungary AF. 1991.” This is a quote by RV from the Eduard instruction sheet. The problem is that this particular aircraft (at the time when it had the white tail) was operated at the Taszar Air Base of the Hungarian Air Force with the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing. The plane had this paint scheme only for a few days. It was painted with water soluble paint for the 1991 airshow. I know this will not make a big difference but historically RV is completely wrong here too. Sad that another opportunity has been missed to make an authentic scale copy of the MiG-21 bis version. Will there be ever one???????????? Best regards Gabor Edited January 5, 2015 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
digit Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I haven't seen the spine myself so I can't judge how bad it is, but surely the other issues mentioned are not the end of the world? - If there are mistakes in the instructions one can ignore them. - I agree the Hungarian markings could be better, but this only matters if building a Hungarian MiG. - I also agree that PE is just not the right media to represent some parts. Like RV's MiG-23 kits have PE parts for pitot tubes, even the included plastic parts look better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 The photos of the new kit are here: http://www.mojehobby.pl/products/MIG-21BIS-Over-Europe.html As I have said before I can make only comparisons with the real thing and in this case comment on the new parts. I have the MF kit, which has common parts on the big sprue. I would not like to go into details on the overall accuracy but my opinion could be guessed from the opinion stated at the top of the page. It is sad that the chance has been missed to have a good kit of the MiG-21bis in 2014. The fact that the Hungarian markings are wrong both here and on the Eduard kit makes that option not possible to build. For me this is important, even if for most others it is irrelevant! What I can do is to show what things look like on the real plane and it could be of help to someone building the kit. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 - I also agree that PE is just not the right media to represent some parts. Photoetching technology can reproduce the finest details with incredible accuracy. That is if you take the time and make proper research! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gene K Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 - If there are mistakes in the instructions one can ignore them. - I agree the Hungarian markings could be better, but this only matters if building a Hungarian MiG. Thanks, ya-gabor for your all your well illustrated analyses - pretty remarkable collection of facts and observations. Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
digit Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 The photos of the new kit are here: http://www.mojehobby.pl/products/MIG-21BIS-Over-Europe.html Thank you. It still "looks like a MiG-21bis" to me, but your post sure makes the details questionable. What I can do is to show what things look like on the real plane and it could be of help to someone building the kit. Much appreciated! I just wanted to clarify why exactly this is a missed opportunity. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
azzaob Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Thanks for taking the time to show these issues Gabor. Out of the box I have found the RV MiGs to be nice little kits - but nevertheless an interesting number of issues with the bis version [ I only have the SMTs at the moment but will probably get an RV bis when $$ allow]. Cheers Edited January 6, 2015 by azzaob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Thanks for taking the time to show these issues Gabor. Out of the box I have found the RV MiGs to be nice little kits - Cheers Exactly! This is why I have also bought the RV MiG-21MF just as one of each MiG-23MF and MLD kits. In the box they look very nice, but when you take it out and have a closer look . . . I know for many it will “look like” a MiG-21 bis and will buy it (just as the Eduard kit). So be it. Everyone can make up their own mind. I would like to waite for a real scale kit of the bis. Sad about the Hungarian markings for me (is it onyl me???), the only question is how authentic all the other markings if the Hungarians are so wrong, while all the information on it is freely available. It is the classical question of a manufacturer investing in research for a subject. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
azzaob Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Exactly! This is why I have also bought the RV MiG-21MF just as one of each MiG-23MF and MLD kits. In the box they look very nice, but when you take it out and have a closer look . . . I know for many it will “look like” a MiG-21 bis and will buy it (just as the Eduard kit). So be it. Everyone can make up their own mind. I would like to waite for a real scale kit of the bis. Sad about the Hungarian markings for me (is it onyl me???), the only question is how authentic all the other markings if the Hungarians are so wrong, while all the information on it is freely available. It is the classical question of a manufacturer investing in research for a subject. Best regards Gabor Hi Not having access to actual aircraft [ I am in New Zealand] I am quite reliant on the photo walkarounds at scalemodels.ru and appreciate the efforts you put into identifying the limits of some of the MiG-21 kits. I too cannot see why the RV kit would have such errors when the subject aircraft is so accessible. But nevertheless we have what we have at the moment and for about 25USD landed in New Zealand the RV MiG kits give me nice OOB kit to start from. I mostly model Soviet versions so the Hungarian option isn't such an issue with me. Nor is the bis nose issue outlined by another ARCer, Laurent, on this forum or maybe it was on Britmodeller? At the end of the day the RV, at the moment at least, ticks most of the boxes for me. Happy modelling Gabor! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) I too cannot see why the RV kit would have such errors when the subject aircraft is so accessible. Because they don't care. Little song I wrote some time ago, RV's song... When I look at planes I see their riveeets I am overwhelmed by all these riveeeets Shape accuracy they don't want Surface detailing's all that counts When I look at planes I see their riveeets Edited January 6, 2015 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
azzaob Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Hi Laurent Eduard have announced their entry into the 1/72 MiG-21 world... http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234974059-172-mig-21-fishbed-by-eduard/ I wonder which order they will release the variants? Aaron Edited January 6, 2015 by azzaob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niki4703 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 When I look at planes I see their riveeetsI am overwhelmed by all these riveeeets Shape accuracy they don't want Surface detailing's all that counts When I look at planes I see their riveeets Let's hope Eduard will give us some nice looking, good fitting PFs, PFMs and MFs! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Hi Laurent Eduard have announced their entry into the 1/72 MiG-21 world... http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234974059-172-mig-21-fishbed-by-eduard/ I wonder which order they will release the variants? Aaron Thanks Aaron ! So one or two MiG-15UTI for 2015 and all MiG-21 versions in 2016. The first version could be the MF I guess. Edited January 6, 2015 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
digit Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Let us hope Eduard releases their MiG-21s faster than their MiG-15s. :)/>/> The latter is pretty good kit so perhaps the MiG-21 will also get some Czech love finally. I for one would be happy to read positive reviews for a change! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 The first version according to plans will be the MiG-21MF in 72nd, well this is what Mr. Sulc said last year at E Day. The line of the Fishbeds should be in the same way as the 48th scale series. As to any corrections to the bis version or just a straight copy of what we have seen in 48th scale is something for the future. We will see, we can only hope. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
azzaob Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Thanks Aaron ! So one or two MiG-15UTI for 2015 and all MiG-21 versions in 2016. The first version could be the MF I guess. Hi Laurent Yes I guess the 48th release schedule is most likely - but I wonder if Eduard might alter the sequence to garner best sales?? whatever that sequence may be? Aaron Edited January 6, 2015 by azzaob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 I for one would be happy to read positive reviews for a change! The Eduard 48th scale MiG-21MF, the SMT, the R are very nice kits, you can read positive reviews of them! They have some small issues, just as any kit but over all they are true state of the art kits! Highly recommended!!! Since the same data base should be used to start from for the 72 scale kits, they should be just as good. Of course there will be some things changed/simplified, due to the smaller scale, but this is normal in this scale. Look forward to them. So finally I will have to put aside for good the KP MiG-21MF kit that I have been doing for some 15 or so years. The MiG-21bis is another question but lets not go back in time but look into the bright future and hope! :) Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
azzaob Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 The first version according to plans will be the MiG-21MF in 72nd, well this is what Mr. Sulc said last year at E Day. The line of the Fishbeds should be in the same way as the 48th scale series. As to any corrections to the bis version or just a straight copy of what we have seen in 48th scale is something for the future. We will see, we can only hope. Best regards Gabor Hi Gabor After reading the comments Mr Sulc made in the Enewsletters when the bis was being released I doubt they will do anything different in 1/72 than they did in 1/48. From memory the whole tone of his comments were that the difference between the MF and the bis was too small to worry about in 1/48, so I would not think they will worry in 1/72. Nevertheless still good news for Fishbed fans:) Aaron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) - but I wonder if Eduard might alter the sequence to garner best sales?? whatever that sequence may be? Dunno. Don't care. I'll buy each one. And I hope that someone will offer a Bison conversion. Edited January 6, 2015 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andzin Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Sorry, canceled Edited January 7, 2015 by Andzin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fanchig Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hello to all, I've read lots of posts regarding the RV Mig-21, and saw so very nice assemblies on the net, that were lovely, so I invested in 3 of those for Christmass : One PFM in Vietnam special box, one regular SMT and the low-cost Bis. Well, I'm not a MIG-21 specialist, but I was more than cautious while reviewing those, and comparing with the other boxe in stock ( 5 Fujimis, 1 Zvesda Bis, 2 Kps, lots of PE stes and corrections from Aires)as well in some few books ( 4+, Verlinden and net sourcing) and finaly what bother me most is the far too wide windscreen and canopy ?! I haven't really seen some comments about that ? And, at the end, I do agree a lot with Gabor, the RV Bis have a really bad spine..........wwich is too bad as the nose sounds pretty good until it commes to the windscreen.......but Zvesda sound a bit too flat so finaly is there a good Mig-21 around ? Fanchig Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 ... so finaly is there a good Mig-21 around ? Fanchig The KP was good when it came out zilions of years ago. The Fujimi was good when it came out . . . OK it was the wrong scale and the information (research) was not enough at the time. Yes, the RV canopy is strange but there are lots of other things strange on it!!! I have just sold my Zvezda PFM and also a Russian (no name company) SMT kit. I have more than enough kits on my workbench and in the stash to keep me going till we get the new Eduard 72nd kits of the MiG-21.:) Best regards Gabor P.s. Still the KP was fairly good for a MiG-21MF even by todays standards if you sand all the raised panel lines from it, add some detail, some resin, some brass . . . We did do an etched set for it with PP Models from Bristol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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