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Looking for Colours - CF-103


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Folks,

I'm looking for any and all information on the colours used with the CF-103 Concept Aircraft that was mocked up by Avro Canada.

A good summary of some of the information is here, along with the black and white photograph:

Wiki Article on CF-103

What I would like to do is to take the 1/48 Hobby Craft CF-100 IV, and back-date that sucker and build either the mocked up CF-103, or go a bit further and make a model of what the prototype may have looked like. For the RCAF fans out there, I would love to have the "Avro Line" done, featuring the CF-100 Prototype, CF-100 IV, V, CF-103, and of course, our beloved Arrow.

Again, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Mark.

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The CF-103 was done up in the same colours the mockup and prototype CF-100's were. Overall gloss black with white stripe, name, and rudder markings. Full colour roundel and tail flash.

Edited by RiderFan
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Just to add a bit to what RiderFan posted..... The CF-103 mockup was based on the CF-100 Mk 2/3 and had the early style canopy and slender nose. I would presume that if the CF-103 went into production it would have probably had a Mk 4/5 style canopy but with a modified radome for improved aerodynamics.

And Mark..... (pedantic hat on) please drop the Roman Numerals for the marks of CF-100 :whistle:/> . The Roman Numerals are a British thing and were never officially used for the CF-100.

Cheers,

John

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Gents, thank you both.

Here's another one I'm going to fire your way then. With the CF-103 being based on the Mk 2/3 (as that was the fuselage available at the time), and I do agree with you completely with the production likely to have had the Mk 4/5 canopy, would it be safe to say that she would very likely have had the modified aerodynamic nose, Mk 4/5 fuselage and planned Orenda 17 engines, and livery seen on the Clunks during '53-55?

Cheers,

Mark.

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Speculation, but it would likely have had the same nose as the Mk 4 and 5 as it would have had the same radar system installed. If memory serves, 410 was to be the first squadron to get the Arrow, so it's probably reasonable to say that it would have been the first squadron to get the CF-103.

Edited by RiderFan
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I'm thinking that moving towards a Mk 4/5 fuselage, with a bit of a more conical nose shape, and the swept wings would look, well, like a production CF-103, and yet, as I say that, I can picture how bad this aircraft would look. Perhaps a bit more of a swept angle on the intakes to match the rake of the wing a little more...

For some reason, the -103 always interested me. The same groups that said the Clunk wouldn't break the sound barrier, also said that a thinner and swept wing variant wouldn't break the sound barrier either. This ugly duckling may have had a lot of potential to it, especially with the larger Orenda 17 engines. But, as you said, speculations.

I think it'd be a very neat project to take on. One that may just get started once the Il-2 is completed... fun little side builds while the Aurora has a holiday every now and again.

But, we are in agreement, whichever approach - a -103 based on either a Mk 2/3 or Mk 4/5 - the fuselage would have been pretty much the same as the CF-100, just different wings, nose, and tail?

Mark.

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This is super interesting. I've followed RCAF aircraft since I was a kid - having two Air Force grandfathers must have had something to do with that.

I heard lots about the CF-100, and lots about the Arrow. But this is the first I've ever heard of the CF-103. Thanks!

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The CF-103 was intended to be a 'supersonic' replacement for the Canuck. The project was scrapped when it was proven that the CF-100 could go supersonic as well without ripping its wings off. Granted, it could only do it in a dive, but then, the CF-103 was only supposed to be able to do it from a dive as well. So there was no point in developing an aircraft that would only be as good as the existing platform. The design team moved on to the CF-105 at that point.

Edited by RiderFan
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BTW, I couldn't find it online, but in the book 'The CF-105 Arrow - Boston Mills Press', there's a great chart on page 12 that shows all 12 variations of design that Avro moved through starting at the CF-100 through to the CF-105. There's a version of the Avro C-104 looked more like an F-86 than it did the Lockheed F-104 we've come to know. Then there's a second version of their C-104 that's a pure delta wing and looks like one of the NASA lifting bodies.

Very interesting concepts came out of Avro Canada in the 50s.

Edited by RiderFan
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Time to find a 1/48 Mk 4, and start planning out this fun!

Any other available references for the 103 that someone could recommend?

Lastly, what about the name? Canuck to the Arrow, but what about the -103? Can't exactly call her the Swept Clunk can I?

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On page 49 of Larry Milberry's 'The Avro CF-100' there is another photo from the stbd rear quarter of the mockup CF-103, and the Boston Mills/Ron Page 'Avro Canuck' on pages 69,70,71 there is 3 photos and two artists impressions of the CF-103.

HTH

cheers, Tony

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The CF-103 was intended to be a 'supersonic' replacement for the Canuck. The project was scrapped when it was proven that the CF-100 could go supersonic as well without ripping its wings off. Granted, it could only do it in a dive, but then, the CF-103 was only supposed to be able to do it from a dive as well. So there was no point in developing an aircraft that would only be as good as the existing platform. The design team moved on to the CF-105 at that point.

Thanks.... as a result of this thread and my curiousity I found the Wikipedia page

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Yeah, I threw the link in my first post, did it not work? None the less, it is a pretty interesting idea. I've found a good priced HC kit of the Mk. 4 and once here I'll start collecting all the other fun things here as I go along. This is one aircraft I wouldn't mind building up as an RC some day.

What to call it through... CF-103 Angry Beaver? Lol.

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Yeah, I threw the link in my first post, did it not work? None the less, it is a pretty interesting idea. I've found a good priced HC kit of the Mk. 4 and once here I'll start collecting all the other fun things here as I go along. This is one aircraft I wouldn't mind building up as an RC some day.

What to call it through... CF-103 Angry Beaver? Lol.

Typical boring Canadian Fashion.... CF-103 Mk3 Super Canuck

:woot.gif:

Emil

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On page 49 of Larry Milberry's 'The Avro CF-100' there is another photo from the stbd rear quarter of the mockup CF-103, and the Boston Mills/Ron Page 'Avro Canuck' on pages 69,70,71 there is 3 photos and two artists impressions of the CF-103.

HTH

cheers, Tony

Tony,

I got my titles mixed up. But regardless, thank you for your help. I wanted to thank you for that on here, and show you a little bit of a neat bit of RCAF history. As I mentioned, I had a copy of the book. As does my young son, who is also a HUGE RCAF fan (and a bigger fan of "Daddies Plane!" (aka the Aurora)):

20150109_003352_zps7fee981a.jpg

His, is the hard cover, which he got last year as a Christmas present. The book itself isn't the awesome part, it was the words written on the inside cover by a fine gentleman who lives just a few doors down from us:

20150109_003405_zps9badf564.png

"Dear Roman,

I worked in the Mfg. Eng. Dept. of

Dowty Equipment of Canada from Apr. '56

until June '59.

I did the Mfg. Eng. work on four major

components of the Avro Arrow.

At first we thought we wouldn't succeed.

The work was difficult. We did succeed and

I saw the first plan fly over our factory

at Ajax, ON.

J.H. Powell

Middleton, NS.

P.S. Have a wonderful Christmas, JP.

He worked on the Landing Gear, and Hydraulics among other components. To sit and talk with him about the issues they had with the mains, and the new higher PSI system was, well, I cannot even describe it. What blew me away was how he said that they based the back-up systems on the Lancaster!

This sleepy little town of ours... ...there's quite a few retired folks who worked with Avro and the RCAF at some point. It's the Eureka of Canadian Aviation history here.

Going back to the CF-103 concept, the plan will move on forward. C103/TR9 of January 1951 will be the base for the idea. But I plan on taking it to an interesting bit of a What if. Production Model using the Mk. 4 fuselage, modified engine intakes, Mk. 4 radar with a pointed nose. Armament bay as was planned. Swept wings and tail as were planned. And the molded in wing tanks along the leading edge. And as RiderFan pointed out, she'll be dressed in 410 Squadron Colours.

Okay, so! Now to start collecting more information.

Guys, thank you very much! If not for your help, this pipe-dream of an idea for a "what if" of the 103 wouldn't be happening this way. Always appreciated.

Cheers,

Mark.

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You may be interested in seeing my friend Jean-Marc Perreault's Avro projects:

http://pages.videotron.com/jmarcpe/AVRO%20PROJECT.htm

Marc-Andre Valiquette, Avro Arrow author and historian, has been helping him quite a bit with references...

https://www.facebook.com/marcandre.valiquette?ref=ts&fref=ts

YF

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