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MattJCYKZ

F-4b qustions..Phriends please help!

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Hi folks!

I'm in the process of modelling f-4b 152327 as it appeared when assigned to VMFA-351 in 1976. It would look very similar to this squadron mate aircraft photo taken at about the same time:

F-4BPhantomaircraftofVMFA-351_zps7f0d051a.jpg

I have some questions for any phantom experts out there:

I've done a lot of research on 152327 and I guess because it's an obscure subject, there are very few pictures of this aircraft as it appeared in this time frame. This has made it very difficult to figure out if the aircraft would have received the upgrade packages that would have been applied to later block 'B' and 'N' models. Even after referencing the block tables i cant quite tell for sure. I've read in a couple places that virtually all 'b' jets would have been fitted with the mods by 1976 but again without great pics it's hard to tell. To add more confusion, I have a couple different color profiles for the plane and one shows slotted stabs and the other doesn't. So What say the phantom knowledgeable? Would it be fair to incorporate these update mods:

slotted stabilizer

bulged trunion covers over the wing

locked inboard leading edge flap

The two electronics bulges, one under each air intake abeam the wing leading edges

the drooped ailerons

On this pic above, there is some indication of the bulged trunion plate but I can't tell if it's a slotted stab or not, or anything else. I kindof figure if this plane has the mods it fair to say that 152327 would have it too.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!

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It is a very small photo, but it is better than nothing I suppose. Doesn't answer many of your questions, but the configuration seems identical to 153006.

b152327mc7-L1vanklaveren1976_zpsa9f78ce4.jpg

Hope it helps,

Tom

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It is a very small photo, but it is better than nothing I suppose. Doesn't answer many of your questions, but the configuration seems identical to 153006.

b152327mc7-L1vanklaveren1976_zpsa9f78ce4.jpg

Hope it helps,

Tom

That's a great start! Answers the questions regarding those electronics fairings under the intakes. Those are definitely present! After looking at the block table again it looks like 3006 was among the first group of aircraft to receive the upgrade package designed for the f-4j (block 26). With 2327 being part of the previous production batch (block 25) I imagine it's probable that the airplane would have been retrofitted at some point before 76'. Thanks for the great picture! Any more info on this airplane would be greatly appreciated!

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According to this (partial) list of 152327's career, it appears it was updated after it left VMFA-351:

F4H-1 (F-4B-24-MC) b/n 152327

*1966-67: VF-14 as "AB-101".

*1970: VFMA-251 as “DW-3”.

*1976: VMFA-351 as “MC-7”.

*Upgraded to F-4N.

*9/7/1983: Struck off charge.

(taken from: http://www.millionmonkeytheater.com/F-4.html )

Here's a couple of pics I found on the net, although while with other squadrons:

152327.jpg

152327NellisAug82ScottWilson.jpg

And one from May 10, 1966 while with VF-14 :woot.gif: :

f-4folded.gif

Hope this is of any help,

Jorge.

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I found the picture Tom posted in larger format on flickr.

The caption (incorrectly identifying it as an F-4J) says:

Gerrit Kok

152327 / 7

F-4J.

VMFA-351.

NAS Atlanta, Georgia.

Marines.

Nov. 1977.

6846463266_9ff22087de_o.jpg

Jorge. :cheers:

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I found the picture Tom posted in larger format on flickr.

The caption (incorrectly identifying it as an F-4J) says:

Gerrit Kok

152327 / 7

F-4J.

VMFA-351.

NAS Atlanta, Georgia.

Marines.

Nov. 1977.

6846463266_9ff22087de_o.jpg

Jorge. :cheers:/>

That's fantastic! Thanks for this better pic. If I look carefully at the upper wing surface against the exhaust nozzle, it looks like you can see the bulged cover over the main landing gear strut so that's very helpful! It looks like it did get an upgrade to N model status after leaving -351 but it doesn't mean that it didn't get the slotted flap and droop aileron mods before then. It looks like in the picture there is some indication of it being the slotted stab but again it's not clear. Thanks for the great info guys! Keep it coming!

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Okay, keeps coming! :lol:

Another shot from an old FAOW series book:

FAOWNavyversionpt273b-1.jpg

Note tail markings are slightly different.

If I happen to find more, I'll post them.

Jorge.

EDIT: I have a larger scan of this pic, but Photobucket keeps reducing the size when I upload it! PM me if you think it would be of any use.

Edited by f4h1phantom

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Okay, keeps coming! :lol:/>

Another shot from an old FAOW series book:

FAOWNavyversionpt273b-1.jpg

Note tail markings are slightly different.

If I happen to find more, I'll post them.

Jorge.

EDIT: I have a larger scan of this pic, but Photobucket keeps reducing the size when I upload it! PM me if you think it would be of any use.

That's a great pic! I'm getting a good idea of what's involved in getting it's config correct. It would be great to see a pic of this airplane with the leading edge flaps down. That would confirm alot of stuff for me. If such a pic exists can someone please please post it, or someone with first hand knowledge let me know if the inboard leading edge flap was locked in the retracted position on that plane.Thanks to everyone for all the info so far! Really useful!

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Matt, I am toying with building this one also using the Hasegawa F-4B/N and Impact Decals. So I am following your thread also. R/ Dutch

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She would have slotted tailplanes for the ‘76 timeframe. That wasn’t specific to B/N, that was platform wise. 

 

Collin

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Well, it does give me a chance to point out something often missed on F-4B  nose discussions.

 

Note that the late F-4B in the photos has the same "IR fairing* " as the F-4N, and NOT the same as the early F-4B actual IR fairing.

 

( * wasn't an IR fairing by then for about a decade or so)

 

You can see that by looking at early and late F-4B shots of the nose, and noticing the "front end size, length and shape."

 

Like everyone else, I have those parts labeled as "F-4N fairings" in my spares box, but, they were used on late F-4B before there was a Bee-Line project to even make the F-4N with. Just one of the many things that appeared on Late Bs, that got carried over into the F-4N program.

 

And, for a quick ID,,,,if an F-4B had that style of IR fairing, it had the front two ECM under the intakes, the pinned innerwing leading edge flaps, the drooped flaps, and the slotted Stabilators. (unless someone has photos that I don't have, that show that fairing type without those other mods )

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Regarding the various EW antennas, jammers, etc,  Navy F-4B/J's went through a multitude of changes over the years.   If you want to get things accurate, here is the best site I've found that goes over these in detail. Has some fantastic drawings, not just of the exterior but also of the cockpit equipment.   Worth checking out for anyone interested in the subject, just wish they would do the same for USAF Phantoms and the later N and S models. 

 

https://phantomphacts.blogspot.com/search/label/EW

 

 

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And it will be cool once Kim fills in the missing parts for the F-4B.

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Gents,

 I've looked for F-4N BuNo 150996 modex NF106 VF-161 from the Midway 1973-75, but can't seem to find a shot of both sides... Since there has been so much help on this post, I was thinking that someone could magically show me where a few pictures might be.

 

Cheers

 

Larry

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Maybe it's me but I see the flat "Thin Wing" of a "B" model. It has the skinny main gear tires and what appears to be flat main gear doors.

 

But what do I know! :smiley-transport007:

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45 minutes ago, Sgt Shultz II said:

Maybe it's me but I see the flat "Thin Wing" of a "B" model. It has the skinny main gear tires and what appears to be flat main gear doors.

 

But what do I know! :smiley-transport007:

that's indeed what it is.

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In case the OP or anyone for that matter is still interested in this intel, I'll spend my own 2 cents. VMFA-351 operated late B's for a Very short time at NAS Atlanta until the OV-10 arrived due to the vast community uproar from the locals about the noise Phantoms were creating in the surrounding area. This particular F-4B appears to have been updated under "Project Heavy Weight" (dropped ailerons, slotted stabs, bolting inner leading edge flap closed, buldged trunion covers over the main gear, beefing up & lengthening of the main gear, thus the need for the trunion covers in the first place).  It has also appears to have been upraded under "Project Shoe Horn" by the presence of the the Sanders AN/ALQ-51/51a/100 Deception Jammer & Track Breaker antennas being installed as late as '70-'72. It also has the  zero/zero MB Mk-7 seats installed by pretty much 1970 fleet wide vs the originall MK-5 seats. Bear in mind that not all mods were consistant fleet wide. Some had the antenna protrusion on the forward vertical stab (these were never removed when some became N models), either the hook shapped antenna on the "Donkey D*!k" of the one shaped like the one found on the F-4D (The troublesome IRST was deleted earlt in the war & capped with a stubby, shorter cap.

 

Some of hese birds were wiring nightmares from squadrons that received various B models from others as the lessons were being learned on the fly over the sky of Vietnam to help counter the hostile radar & detection & hap-hazard attempt to jam & RWR. Case in point, VMFA-122 performed in the field squadron level re-wiring so they could carry the infamous three gun pods on the center line & outboard stations. Receiving squadrons could not figured out how to get the wiring back to spec. Some squadrons came up with their own mods & jimmy rigged in attempt to "fix" problems with any particular airframe when tech reps were on hand, altough some of thes problems were not being solved company tech reps that WERE on board the boat, Danang, Chu Lai or any one of the NARF locations. Just because one jet was modded at Atsugi or North Island isolated changes were being made prior some probs were not being trouble shooted as some other issues took "priority" as deemed by the services & Douglas. And, not all that the AFC mods were being installed in the airframes at the NARFs, some during PAR, for no rhyme or reason. I think the F-4 was the most modded aircraft during the Vietnam Era. Phantoms (along with Thuds) were so overworked & stressed that no one could keep up with all the changes to keep the airframes & associated with what was needed during that era.  When the boat headed for home, often times the Corps swapped their high time airframes for the Navy's lower time airframes to be transported on the said boat to CONUS for Depot level for AFCxxx at a NARF in order to keep the more utilized USMC birds due their constat local incountry CAS mission for the grunts or Steel Tiger targets in Laos. However, it's an interesting dichotomy that the more utilized USMC had worn out birds in short orde. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or left anything out. 

 

Semper Fi,

Masterguns

Edited by Gunny

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This thread made me very sad. 😪 There are posts by Superheat and Rex, both of which are no longer with us. They were such great guys, and the knowledge they had about NavAir was unparalleled. They are missed greatly!

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15 minutes ago, Darren Roberts said:

This thread made me very sad. 😪 There are posts by Superheat and Rex, both of which are no longer with us. They were such great guys, and the knowledge they had about NavAir was unparalleled. They are missed greatly!

 

 

Agree wholeheartedly

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Should move info blocks like these from those great guys into a consolidated thread that's pinned for each aircraft discussed. That would be a fitting tribute I suppose.

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4 minutes ago, Whiskey said:

Should move info blocks like these from those great guys into a consolidated thread that's pinned for each aircraft discussed. That would be a fitting tribute I suppose.

 Kinda like the ones on Z Five.

 

Agreed with Darren, we are losing some great guys, that have been tremendous resources for all of us. Taps...

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Wow, it amazes me how this thread keeps coming back. People really love their phantoms including me. 152327 was my third hasegawa phantom finished a couple years ago. I have a forth (this time a back converted f-4n from a j boxing that gets worked on from time to time.  I love the kit. Easy to work and mod..and it looks like a phantom when its done! 

 

Gunny: Thanks for putting all that info on the thread. It confirmed a lot of questions I still had about the plane, even after my build was over. It's such a confusing matter keeping track of mods and all; A couple phantom guys had recently thought that I had really built and f-4n, and who could blame them. It took a lot of research to get most of the featured of this late b correct though after reading your post just now...i may have missed a couple things..but it was a fun and rewarding build anyways:)

 

I'm glad that many people have had a chance to post and read posts from friends who've come and gone. It's really a great forum for the hobby and meeting place for people from many backgrounds. 

 

Anyways, here's the link to the finished 2327 from a couple years ago if anyone is interested. 

Just click on the "old ghost of Atlanta" tittle :)

 

 

Thanks again to everyone who posted and helped me complete the project.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

 

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