A Hog Swimming with the Sharks, 1/48 Hobby Boss A-10A

[Joel_W]

taggor,

I'm glad that you're taking my comments and suggestions in a positive, constructive manner, as that's what they are. I'm really enjoying your build, and the opportunity for our give and take. And thank you for letting me have that side conversation with Chuck.

Those pictures of Sid de Koning's A-10's rivet detail certainly is outstanding work. To me they're punched not drilled (AKA the same technique Chuck uses), leaving a clearly visible bottom that once a wash is applied, has the elusion of a rivet with a top. One of my concerns with your approach is that I don't see a bottom, so I'm assuming that you drilled out the rivets. Paint, stains, and even thin filler might not seal each rivet, or seal them evenly, which would leave a rather odd looking finish to them, which is something I don't think you want. Perhaps a hand brushed on coat of a somewhat thick primer, then wiped off with enough pressure to force a shallow concave effect.

As for the Archer rivets, they would certainly look convincing. Like most things we as modelers need at the last min, they tend to be out of stock, or the shipping costs are nearly as much as the product. Ask me how I know 1st hand.

Joel

Edited January 20, 2015 by Joel_W

[taggor]

Joel, thanks for the post. I now know exactly what your concern is after reviewing Sid's work. My "rivets" do have bottoms to them but, I may have put one too many twists on the pin vice and on the occasional time where I punched right through unintentionally. I have been doing some work on the wings and at the thinner portions of the plastic it amounts to only a couple of twists. That may be what I should have done all along. I am planning to use Mr. Surfacer 500 for some of the priming/sanding sessions so maybe that will give me the results I really wanted all along.

Joel, you go right ahead and give those comments and suggestions. I value them very much. As I have mentioned before, this is exactly what I wanted to happen. I can't learn anything from all you seasoned professionals if my WIP is done in a vacuum without anyone else contributing. I can't learn anything either if there is only an "at a boy" or "good job." I guess that's the difference from being a younger man to being and older man. Everyone wants to do well but, in order to get there you have to be able to take constructive criticism. As a little side note, I earned a BFA in art from York College of Pennsylvania and some of my sculpture class critiques were out right brutal! It's only after time that one learns the true value of constructive criticism and it's hard for some folks to "wrap their noodle" around that and you don't often know who is going to take those comments the wrong way. I won't be one of them!

OK sermon over! Haha. I need to get to work so I have some new stuff to share with you all. Thanks again for being a part of my build Joel!

[Sid de Koning]

An additional problem with the Archer rivets is the distance between the rivets. Also if you have to place two rows of rivets close together you can't because of the backing film.

I drilled out these holes with only minor depth. Partly because I was lazy, wanted to keep reconstruction work to a minimum if needed and to keep the bottom visible. But yours are clearly deeper than mine. Maybe a thinned mr. Surfacer over the rivets and afterwards either sand the surface lightly again or wipe away the wet mr. surfacer.

Nice work so far Mark! It does take me back two yeears.. damn, time flies. It's still the last one finished..

Sid

[chuck540z3]

An additional problem with the Archer rivets is the distance between the rivets. Also if you have to place two rows of rivets close together you can't because of the backing film.

Sid

Hey Sid, those are not big problems, or at least not any more. Archer makes many different types of rivets in a wide variety of sizes and spacing, including some double rowed ones. I just order a bunch of different sizes and cut out what I need. My only complaint is that they are really expensive!

Archer Transfers

[coneheadff]

Another great Hog build...where is the popcorn?

Great job so far!!!

[Joel_W]

Hey Sid, those are not big problems, or at least not any more. Archer makes many different types of rivets in a wide variety of sizes and spacing, including some double rowed ones. I just order a bunch of different sizes and cut out what I need. My only complaint is that they are really expensive!

Archer Transfers

Chuck,

I just checked out your link to Archer's. OMG!! $18 for rivets per page. However, I do like his place card sets, and prop labels.

Joel

[taggor]

Hello all! Well, I think I finally have some progress photos and info for you all. First a thanks to coneheadff and Sid de Koning for their posts! I hope I am not boring you all to death here.

At the stage I am at now everything is coming as two's. Two wings, two engines, two vertical stabilizers, ....etc. So it's going to take me a bit longer to update. Still waiting for paint and the set up and waiting for supplies to fix my rivet "folly."

So on with the progress .... as opposed to regress! :D (I have done enough regression on this project and more is to come I am sure.)

Descriptions for photos are below the intended photo:

When I last updated I said that I would have some panel work done where I had "flubbed" up the circuit breaker panel and I would have the stiffening plates done. Well, this is where I have it now. Still needs a bit of work and sanding. There are a few pin holes to clean up. I had to make the stiffening plate to the right of the circuit breaker panel twice. The first attempt was not pretty. I am waiting for Mr. Dissolved Putty and Mr. Surfacer 500 to work the rest of the panel.

The stiffening plates were made using scotch tape placed over the panel and then the plates were drawn using .5 mechanical pencil on the tape. The tape removed and placed on a sheet of printer paper. Then the patterns cut out with a new knife blade. Sounds easy doesn't it!? Anyhow, one thing to remember for making these stiffening plates is that the edges of the "legs" or "stems" are not squared off. At least not in the photos I have. They are actually rounded. I tried to simulate this by cutting small angles after I cut them as square. You will notice the left side plate is square at the bottom of my photo here. I got lazy and didn't want to tempt fate by trying to correct it. These things will test your resolve! Haha.

Just another image at a different angle. I wanted to add that the plates, once cut from the tape/paper combo were glued in place with white glue and cleaned up with a brush and water. Much of the sanding marks you see in the photos are removal of glue. Still looking to be a "clean" builder.... one day.

So my next project was to work on the wings. I chose to use the Aires wheel wells. I hadn't seen any WIP's using them and after working with them I think I know why. I had seen some incredible work using the kit provided sponsons but, to my eye they are too narrow and again, maybe I am just too lazy. Working with the Aires sponsons will not make you lazy I would later find out. The wings are still in process as of this date 1/23/15 but, here is a bit of a progress report.

I had yet another "Ooops" with the left wing so here we have the basic break down of the right wing. The pattern indicated with the marker indicates cutting zones.

Here you can see some blocking that I did. this is important to give the sponsons an area to "perch" on. By now the lower portion of the wing is in two pieces and were test fitted to the sponson. I had to shim each side for an acceptable fit. You can also see the filling of ejector marks with Mori Mori.

In order for the blocking to work test fitting was imperative. Here I just wanted to illustrate some material removal where the weapons pylons are attached but, on the inside of the wings. Also note the strip styrene on the contact edge where the panel connects to the sponson. No matter how hard I tried I always took away more material than needed on both wings! Oh well. Modeling is all about how we fix our own mistakes right?

Just another shot of the test fitting process. You can see in this photo where I have small arrows drawn to indicate areas that need more attention with a file to enhance the fit to the sponson.

Here is the dreaded left wing. I say dreaded because this is where I made a big mistake but I was able to recover from it quite well. Happy feeling! :) What I am showing here is a missed panel by whome ever made the mold for Hobby Boss. The needle file points to the area where there should be a duplicate panel as to the right of it. Here I have the outline scribed using the UMM-01. I drew the panel on with pencil (a couple of times to get proportions right). The right wing has the same issue. Later I would find another omitted panel on the tops of both wings and have yet another initial disaster because I was too lazy to make drawings first! ( I fixed that too! Haha.) The reason this was the dreaded left wing is you can see from this photo I cut too deep for the sponson's fit. It should have been cut shallower but, somehow I convinced myself that I needed to fit it under that vertical panel cover at the wing joint. Boy, was I wrong!

Another view for clarity. Later I drew on the rivets and drilled them out as well. Just a mirror image.

Well that should do it for this installment. Next time I will try to show more of the process of how I fixed "lefty" and hopefully a few detail bits. Until then I will leave you all with this parting shot:

If this project all goes to @&$*! I will just toss this one and start another one! Haha. No...Seriously, my initial thought was to model quite a few from OEF since TwoBobs has the Philadelphia Freedom sheet (Yeah PA!) And perhaps a "Charlie" or two down the road. Also love the "lizard" painted birds too! ....... But after this project..... I just don't know! Haha. No.... I love the A-10

[coneheadff]

Oh boy...looks like a loooooot of work. Keep up the great work!

[Joel_W]

Excellent work on those stiffening plates. Viewed as just part of the wing with less magnification, they'll look perfect.

One question about the Aires wheel wells and sponsons. The area that you have marked off with the black marker, are you cutting the wing in half using the black lines as a guide, and staying just to the outside of them so that the well has a place to be glued to since from what you said it's a little wider?

Joel

[taggor]

coneheadff and Joel, thanks for your posts!

Joel, to answer your question about the sponson/wing fitting, yes that was the idea to stay inside the lines and work the plastic inside out but, as I mentioned I didn't quite accomplish that as I took away too much material from the outer wing segment but, not devastatingly so. Nothing that cannot be fixed without too much effort as evidenced by the photos. The inner/ under wing section on both wings worked out just fine. The thing I suppose I didn't consider what that the wing starts it's upward angle from the outside of the sponson and would have required an angular cut to retain more of the kits wing I am thinking. At this time I am not sure how I would have accomplished that with the present set of tools I have. There is probably a jig out there to help with this sort of thing. I am certainly not tooless but, I have other tool priorities at the moment. It was important to keep the sponsons square and in line with the section that connects with the fuselage and that worked out well I thought. I am pleased.

Finally I just wanted to comment again about all the amazing work the ARC community has here. It is really humbling to be a part of this community and while I don't comment much at all on some of the many topics here, I think "WOW!" sums up much of the skill I see here!

[Joel_W]

Taggor,

I was that way at the beginning as well. Once I started to feel more comfortable posting in various threads, the give and take both in my build threads and theirs has increased, and certainly has helped me become a more accomplished modeler. Not to mention that I've made several friends along the way.

Joel

Edited January 25, 2015 by Joel_W

[taggor]

Hey Joel. Thanks for your encouraging comment. I just wish I had time to follow many of the great progress builds going on here. I work shift work so that alone is a major "chink" to overcome. It's almost as if I have to choose between sleep, reading ARC, or working on my mistakes! Haha.

So.... hello again. I have some sanding filling work to do that is going to keep me from updating regular. Since it's the kind of thing that isn't post worthy. I am just going to highlight at the end of the work. I am happy to say I have my Gunze Mr. Dissolved Putty and can start working on rivet correction. Certainly not post worthy. So this thread may "float" to the bottom of the pile for a little while. I recently got my Small Shop bender and was really excited to start working with it, however, much of the work I am doing (repairs and "Oh crap! I forgot that too!") requires that the photo etch be left off until the entire assembly is closer to being ready for a final primer coat. Since I couldn't wait I did some small work that would not interfere with the major overhauls.

(to be read sarcasticly and taken with humor) I finally realized why I bought all these reference books and downloaded all these walk around photos. It was to discover all the wrong things Hobby Boss had included in their mold and to correct my over zealous work accepting the details provided without using afore mentioned books / photos with the kit and enhancing the mistakes! Haha :D

Much could have been avoided if I had researched prior to work. Oh well, it is what it is! Right?

Anyhow here are a few bits until I get back with some real progress. Everything here is X2

Here is that missing panel that I had mentioned last time. I want to mention that Neil Dunridge's book A-10 Thunderbolt II : 21st Centruy Warthog is a beautiful work with fantastic pictures. There are some really sharp pictures of an A-10 banking hard vertical which were very useful for picking out these and other wing details. Surely not close up but, very helpful I thought. If you are an A-10 fan.... you will want to check this book out if you haven't already!

I wanted to make the actuator rods for the trim tab on the ailerons and made these two bits with .032 and .020 brass rod stock from K&S Engineering. The kit detail is a molded in half round bit and sit's a bit high on the part.

A shots of the installed rod and to show the depth. I retained the "hinge" lump thinking that I did not want to have to craft that item as well. At this time I didn't realize that Eduard had included detail bits for the hinge! Yay... or so I initially thought!

I also want to mention that the ailerons are are too thinck out of the box and need to be reduced in thickness for them to fit properly.

So here they are! Quite an enhancement I think. better than the plastic "lump" by itself. The issue with the photo etch is that it's a simple "L" bend but, the trim tab does not have enough "area" to accommodate the base portion of the hinge on the RHS in this photo. So the part has to be cut. This is where the fun begins because the part is so tiny, I had to place the part first and then apply the glue. Most of what I use is medium to think "super glue" for some of my building. With these I picked up some Krazy Glue brand crafting super glue at Walmart because I needed to have a thinner glue to work with these small parts. It seems to have a slower activation time and I think it even says so on the package but, I don't remember. I say this because of course the part "got away from me" during gluing and I was able to recover without using debonder and creating a mess of glue in the process.

Here is a shot of the right wing illustrating the hinge "frame"? without the base. I didn't get the height right on it but, heck, I was just happy to get it on there! Haha. I was still happy regardless. It's of interest to note that Eduard includes enough of these for three hinges. I wonder if they anticipated failure! Haha. It's actually a good thing since the rear Horizontal Stabilizers do not have a trim mechanism at all and will be needed when I reach assembly there. You would still have to purchase a second exterior detail set to have enough to do both.

So that's it for now. When I get back to this thread I should be moving forward with paint (or maybe backwards!) I am going to be on the positive side and say "YES, I will be moving forward!" Thanks to all who are following! Until next time.... I will be filling rivets!

Edited January 28, 2015 by taggor

[Joel_W]

Mark,

I'm really impressed with the actuator rods and hinges. Nicely done.

Joel

[Crazy Snap Captain]

+1 They look awesome Mark. Great work thus far!

[taggor]

Joel, thanks again for the props and Crazy Snap Captain, thanks for your kind comments. It's quite a "ride" with this kit. I think only because of my own mistakes. Haha. With any luck this thread wont linger too long in deep end and I will be able to give you all an update in a while. Thanks so much for your comments as any and all are very much welcome!

[taggor]

Well hello again, I have managed to make some progress albeit slow but, as I remember hearing at one time "good is in the details."

With only about one to two hours available to me during my work week I am able to accomplish small bits here and there and by the time my weekend comes I can hopefully spend a good four hours on the kit.

Last time I think I made a comment about reference material and taking the kits details for granted. Well what that meant is, as I looked over my reference materials on the wings, I noticed that even with the "real deal" the rivet detail featured on the kit was too prominent. So that meant that I needed to fill much of that detail that I had "enhanced" already by punching/drilling out. I would also pick out additional areas that needed correction or in this case addition. Filling in the rivet detail is a personal choice as those details most likely exist to some effect but who knows what Hobby Boss may have omitted or made up (they include some panel details that just don't exist) in their mold?

While I would like to tell you all that I have completed both wings..... well, I have only been working with the left. In spite of the fact that I did detail some of the right wing too. I felt that I just needed to concentrate on the left. So off we go!

A while back when I was illustrating a panel omission near the ailerons I had commented about how I cut too much material for the Aires wheel sponsons to fit. Here is how I fixed the large gap that remained after gluing. I took large strips of Evergreen strip stock and filed each "block" to a 45 degree angle (or something close!) and glued the wedges in the gap. Filed them all down to shape and had minimal areas to apply filler. In this photo I still had retained the stall flap fencing from the kit as a filler aid. Both fences would later be filed off. I might add also that this left side sponson is where the single point refueling port is. I chose to close mine up although Aires does a nice job of providing everything you need to make it open ready for fuel.

Here is an illustration of how I go about the filler process. Here I show the underside of the left wing for illustration. As I have to mix "batches" of Mori Mori, I try to take advantage of the amount of filler I mix so that hopefully I wont have so much waste. To this day I am still trying to mix the "right" amount to NOT have waste. Working on it!

With the tape off and the yellow color of the Mori Mori against white there is little chance to "miss" what areas need work! Here you can see that I had added some to the lower sponson cover. As I mentioned just a moment ago, I chose to close the refueling door. Well, the part is good but, doesn't really fit well in the closed position so this means sanding and shaping. This resulted in a very thin bottom that cracked open from shaping and sanding so I needed to glue and fill to the extent that the filler became the final shape surface on the bottom. Not terribly thick mind you but, in order to have a smooth surface. I also managed to avoid disaster as I got some filler in the detail part of the front sponson. Luckily I had some Mr. Thinner handy and managed to soak a paint brush with it and remove the "spillage" completely! Happy sigh of relief!

So here we have an illustration of the bottom of the left wing again but, this time the Mori Mori is sanded down using 600, 1000, and 2000 wet/dry sandpaper by 3M. Also here, which some you can't see too well, are various "blotches" of grey. The grey is Mr. Surfacer 500. Excellent for filling pin holes where air had gotten trapped under the Mori Mori during application and showed up after sanding. I reprimed after sanding the Mori Mori and then apply the Mr. Surfacer 500. The primer is the rattle can version of Tamiya's Fine Surface Primer. Excellent stuff and goes on thin with good coverage. It takes a couple of light coats but, that's how I choose to apply it. The Mr. Surfacer 500 is then sanded with 1000 and 2000 grit wet/dry sand paper. I choose to do most of it wet as the grit gets clogged pretty quick with the primer and this helps keep the papers grit stay relatively clean.

Some of you with keen eyes may notice that I have the Eduard photo etch flare/chaff dispenser on the sponson as well. More on that in a minute.

A shot of the topside with the same corrections as below. With the addition of the fuel point from Eduard. I chose to add some of the photo etch bits that would not be prone to breakage to the wing at this stage. Some of you will also notice that my additional rivets are not uniform. They are not meant to be. Large and exaggerated as from the beginning of my WIP. I saw an interesting picture showing heavy weathering on the leading edge and that inspired my work.

The wing tip with additional photo etch slime light brackets and IR lights.

Another top shot of the wing close up to the sponson. Here you can see the blend of the sponson to the wing. Also you will notice an additional panel line close to the left side of the sponson. It was omitted by Hobby Boss. I chose not to rivet all of it only because it would be too busy if I did. I did a parallel line next to the other rivets which is not in this photo. Also here the kit stall flap fencing is gone.

Ok so on to the chaff/flare dispenser photo etch by Eduard. Yes! they work with the Aires sponsons! Of course I didn't think out their install too well so I had, again, made a mess to clean up. That fact that they fit was a great feeling because the resin sponsons only have large rectangular holes and no "mesh" as if to indicate individual chaff/flare points. My only regret is that I will not be able to use the Eduard bits for the wing tip chaff/flare points. They are too large for the kit and it would take a lot more time than I am willing to invest to make them work. Even though the photo here is small you can see a bit of a gap towards the front of the dispensers.

The gap is corrected with Mr. Dissolved Putty. A great product and tool for the "filler toolbox" to get those spots that just need a little bit and it's really not desirable or easy to sand in those areas. The fill must be shallow though as it will not fill medium size gaps with efficiency. Here you can also see aft of the chaff/flare dispenser I had to build up the rear of the sponson because I filed too much away when I worked at fitting the photo etch. There should not be a "lip" from the rivets to the surface of the sponson. As I said.... another mess I made to clean up! Haha.

Corrected and re-primed.

Continued next post.

Edited February 13, 2015 by taggor

[taggor]

Continued....

This image is to illustrate the effect of Mr. Surfacer 500 on my rivet work that was too deep. Here is the result and that is what I will use to shallow up my previous work where really, I should have just given a mere two twists on the pin vice. All future rivet work was adjusted to be shallow like the panel scribed to the top there. Model and learn! Haha.

This shot and the next one show new panel lines and riveting.

Those of you with sharp eyes may notice the stall warning transducer. I think I broke off the "tab" for it two times before it would stay. Now it's solid and I can brush against it as I work without worry.

this a photo to illustrate hinge stock. I noticed that the ailerons have some exposed hinges. The kit provides no detail for these so... on with the hinges.

I wanted to show this photo to show how tiny the hinges are and also to point out the front of the sponson. I marked where the latches should go with sharpie and rescribed the door line which was a bit challenging since the resin used for the sponsons and front wheel well have a "rubber-like" feel when scribing/cutting. I guess it feels more resistant to the scribe. UMM's SCR-02 was used here along with the SCR-01. The resin is solid and thankfully not brittle. Just a strange feel I guess. I used the blue painter's tape to prevent chatter with the jeweler's files I used to shape the hinges.

Here are the ones on the top. Repeat for the bottom of the wing as well! Each hinge is made up of three pieces of strip styrene as illustrated previous. The pieces are placed on the model and welded with Tennax and shaped with the afore mentioned jeweler's files to shape and scribed with UMM's SCR-02 only. They are too small for the SCR-01 and I even broke one (Can you believe it!?) and had to repair from scribing. Final clean up was done with 600 grit on up paper dry.

OK so now that concludes this installment. I am hoping by the end of March to be done with the wings. We will see. Thanks for tuning in and following. Hope this was helpful as always.

Edited February 12, 2015 by taggor

[crackerjazz]

Taggor, your attention to detail is incredible -- and you seem to be able to execute what you fancy so effortlessly.

[taggor]

Thanks for those kind words Crackerjazz. Like yourself and countless others that have a build going on, I have seen such amazing work here on ARC. Matt, who is doing his Phinal Phantom project was kind enough to break down some of his scratch building, helped with the approach to the hinges. I am just humbled to be able to "hang" with all of you here and view others works for ideas. I am Looking forward to your seat fix on your Harrier and more progress. Thanks again for stopping in!

Edited February 12, 2015 by taggor

[skids72]

Absolutely stunning, cant wait to see more

[taggor]

Thank you for posting Skids72 and thanks for the "props." It's going to take a bit more time until I can update again so I appreciate you and everyone who are following along. Maybe a "mini" update from time to time.

If there is any aspect of this build that seems vague, or maybe you just want to know more please just ask and I will do my best to illustrate my approach to the kit.

[Joel_W]

Taggor,

Certainly your detailing has been time extremely well spent. The deletion of so much of that mass riveting and then a reduction in the over all size and depth of the remaining and additional riveting looks so much better this time around. Simply outstanding. They don't dominate the wing, but rather contribute to the well detailed look of it. As for the Chaff dispenser I'm really impressed at the level of detail achieved using PE.

Joel

[taggor]

Thanks for the post Joel! The PE really does all the work at the detail on the Chaff/Flare dispenser. So it's kind of cheating. You just need someone with a little more skill than I to put it on right the first time! Haha. That's what happens when you get too excited about it! ;)

Edited February 12, 2015 by taggor

[erik_g]

Yeah.. PE is cheating, because no skill and patience is needed folding it neatly and putting it together without leaving glue stains everywhere.. or maybe not :-)

Colour printed PE on the other hand, THAT is cheating.. right?

I am currently building the same kit - pure OOTB (almost), but looking at your build I can´t believe it really is the same. The end result will be different like night and day. While I do think that the HB A-10 kit has been an enjoyable kit to build and to my eyes it looks like an A-10, your work is really paying off. If I wore a hat I´d take it off for you. :-)

[taggor]

Yeah.. PE is cheating, because no skill and patience is needed folding it neatly and putting it together without leaving glue stains everywhere.. or maybe not :-)

Colour printed PE on the other hand, THAT is cheating.. right?

I am currently building the same kit - pure OOTB (almost), but looking at your build I can´t believe it really is the same. The end result will be different like night and day. While I do think that the HB A-10 kit has been an enjoyable kit to build and to my eyes it looks like an A-10, your work is really paying off. If I wore a hat I´d take it off for you. :-)

Thanks for stopping in erik_g! Please post your completed build in the gallery here on ARC when you are finished with yours. I always love to see others work on the A-10. Spad who is also on the board here has an amazing build going with his HB A-10 too. Maybe you have seen his thread? Not to mention chuck570z3's work, which is just mind blowing, on his 1/32nd Trumpeter build. Thank you for getting my humor too. I like to keep things light and I think Joel knows that from following along early on. To be honest I am not sure I could make models without my Optivisor. That is the real hero of my build and single piece of kit that I couldn't do without. Thank you for your kind comments.