Shapeways best resolution?

[taneal1]

I've been told that in order to get the proper detail, and a smooth enough detail for a project that I'm doing, I need to print at 30 microns. After spending some time on the Shapeways site, I can't find any info as to the resolution that can be produced using the different materials they offer. Searching online I am finding a large number of comments stating that Shapeways hasn't revealed the resolution their printers are set at - but these statements are a year or two old.

Can anyone who has had stuff printed by them tell me if they can do 30 microns, and if so, what material do they use at that resolution?

Thanks for any info,

Tom

[MoFo]

Shapeways' highest resolution prints are done in Frosted (Ultra) Detail. The printer they use for Frosted (Ultra) Detail is a Projet HD 3000. The Projet HD 3000 can print at two resolution settings, HD and UHD. HD prints at a resolution of 328 x 328 x 606 DPI (xyz), which works out to a layer height of about 42 microns. Shapeways calls this "Frosted Detail". UHD Mode prints at a resolution of 656 x 656 x 800 DPI (xyz), which works out to about 32 micron layer height. Shapeways calls this "Frosted Ultra Detail".

So, if you want (about) 30 micron layer height, you will want to use Frosted Ultra Detail. See the comments here: https://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/812-Introducing-3D-Printing-of-new-smooth,-ultra-detailed-material.html Alternatively, you could use their 'Detailed Plastics' (Black Detailed, White Detailed or Clear Detailed). These use an Objet Connex 500 Printer and are run at 30 micron layer height as well, but require greater wall thicknesses and heavier embossed/debossed detail.

Another alternative would be to look for another print bureau running a similar printer. https://www.3dhubs.com/ and http://www.makexyz.com/ have searchable listings of print bureaus and individuals with 3D printers. You can do a bit of digging to find a place that will print ultra high resolution close to you.

[taneal1]

Hi There MoFo,

Thank you for the extremely informative reply! You've provided everything I need to know.

So, if you want (about) 30 micron layer height, you will want to use Frosted Ultra Detail.

Alternatively, you could use their 'Detailed Plastics' (Black Detailed, White Detailed or Clear Detailed). These use an Objet Connex 500 Printer and are run at 30 micron layer height as well, but require greater wall thicknesses and heavier embossed/debossed detail.

My project is a 1/24th scale Mercury spacecraft. The part I want to make is the truncated cone. It would be approximately a 3" diameter base, tapering to a 1.5" diameter at the top of the truncated cone, and a wall thickness of 1/16th of an inch. The exterior shingle bead (dimples) would match those of the 1/24th scale Gemini if you're familiar with that. Do you think this detail would be too fine for their 'detailed plastics'?

I haven't found anything on Shapeway's site indicating their 'formula' for calculating the price, so I'll have to draw something up and ask for prices for both of the above materials.

I'll get a price from Shapeways first and probably somewhere else for comparison.

Another alternative would be to look for another print bureau running a similar printer. https://www.3dhubs.com/ and http://www.makexyz.com/ have searchable listings of print bureaus and individuals with 3D printers. You can do a bit of digging to find a place that will print ultra high resolution close to you.

Thanks again for all the GREAT info!

Tom

[niart17]

For the Frosted Detail and Frosted Ultra Detail the price is based on volume of material plus a handling fee per model. Last I recall FUD was $3.49 per cubic centimeter plus something like $5 handling (not sure of the handling fee, can't recall) FD was a little less. It's listed on the materials pages. You can just find your volume, multiply by the price per cu cm and then add the fee and that's what it will cost you.

They recently changed the way they price the white strong and flexible so it's easier to just upload your model and have them run the calculation and give you a price. It doesn't take too long to find out how much it will cost you.

As for the parts, yes I think the resolution of FUD would work. BUT I think it's going to be pretty expensive for that large a model in FD or FUD.

Hope that helps,

Bill

[MoFo]

If you're using FUD, you can cut down on material usage by shelling the model so that it's hollow in the middle. Make the walls about .5mm thick, that will give you a void of about .5mm and will cut your material costs by about 1/3. Note that you will need to add some escape holes so that the support wax can drain out of the void. It would also be a good idea to add a few braces between the walls, to make it more rigid.

FUD vs Detail Plastic... Your wall thicknesses will be fine with detail plastic. The primary difference would be with embossed/recessed details. FUD will print details down to .1mm; detail plastic will print details down to .2mm. That means, if you want panel lines on your part, they'll have to be .2mm wide/deep (at least) if you use detail plastic, but they can go down to .1mm with FUD. If your details are larger than this, it doesn't matter. If both models are solid, detail plastic is a little cheaper (about 15%/cm3); but you'll be able to shell your model for FUD and won't be able to for detail, so FUD would ultimately be the cheapest way to go.

Pricing shouldn't be hard to calculate. Most places charge a set handling fee per model (per file, actually), plus a cost per volume of material. The standard is quoted in terms of cost per cubic centimetre (cm3). Any 3D drawing software worth its salt will be able to calculate the volume of your model, then you'll be able to do the math yourself; any print bureau linked at the two sites I mentioned previously should include pricing info.

Finally, before you print your stuff... Save your STLs at the highest possible resolution you can while keeping it under your bureau's size limits. I think shapeways has a max file size of about 64 MB; you want to get as close as you possibly can to that, to get smoother prints with fewer visible polygons.

[taneal1]

Thanks Bill,

For the Frosted Detail and Frosted Ultra Detail the price is based on volume of material plus a handling fee per model. Last I recall FUD was $3.49 per cubic centimeter plus something like $5 handling (not sure of the handling fee, can't recall) FD was a little less. It's listed on the materials pages.

I'll have to inspect the materials page more closely. I didn't notice the pricing.

You can just find your volume, multiply by the price per cu cm and then add the fee and that's what it will cost you.

I already calculated the SURFACE AREA of this 1/16th inch thick truncated cone as 18 sq. in. The VOLUME of this 1/16th inch thick truncated cone is... Hmmmmmmmm. 18" * 1/16" = 1.125 cubic inches. That was way too easy, and the answer sounds kinda small, doesn't it?

As for the parts, yes I think the resolution of FUD would work.

This IS encouraging. :D/>/>/>

BUT I think it's going to be pretty expensive for that large a model in FD or FUD.

This is NOT encouraging. :o/>/>/>

It is what I was expecting, though. Care to take a rough guess as to price?

Hope that helps,

Bill

ABSOLUTELY, it helps.

Thanks Again,

Tom

Edited January 30, 2015 by taneal1

[niart17]

If your sq. in. calculation is correct then 1.5 cu in. = 24.58 cm3. And IF I remember the price right, that's roughly $85.78 in material plus something like $5 material handling. Then add shipping so, you're right in the $100 mark for just the skin. Not out of this world, but pricey.

Bill

[taneal1]

Bill,

If your sq. in. calculation is correct then 1.5 cu in. = 24.58 cm3. And IF I remember the price right, that's roughly $85.78 in material plus something like $5 material handling. Then add shipping so, you're right in the $100 mark for just the skin. Not out of this world, but pricey.

When I calculated the 'Lateral Surface Area' of the truncated cone, I used an online calculator. It came out as 24 sq. in. I did it myself using the math formula for lateral surface area of a truncated cone, and came up with 18 square inches. As a check I calculated the TOTAL Surface Area and it equals 24 sq. in., so the online calculator was wrong and the surface area is only 18 sq in.

Assuming I'm doing this correctly, 18 sq. in. * 1/16" = 1.125 cubic inches = 18.435 cubic cm. Price = $3.50 * 18.435 =

$64.34 + $5 = $70 + shipping = about $85.00 -- I can do THAT for sure.

IF sq. in. of surface area multiplied by thickness in inches actually does equal the volume in cubic inches, then the above price is correct. Now I'll research my questionable math formula...

Thanks Bill,

Tom

Edited January 30, 2015 by taneal1

[MoFo]

Seriously, just open your model in whatever 3D drawing software you're using and look at its properties. There will be some sort of measuring option that will give the model's volume. And if, for some weird reason, there isn't... just open the STL in NetFabb and IT will give you the model's volume. Way, way easier than trying to do back-of-the-envelope calculations, and more precise, too, since it will account for raised/recessed details.

[taneal1]

If you're using FUD, you can cut down on material usage by shelling the model so that it's hollow in the middle. Make the walls about .5mm thick, that will give you a void of about .5mm and will cut your material costs by about 1/3. Note that you will need to add some escape holes so that the support wax can drain out of the void. It would also be a good idea to add a few braces between the walls, to make it more rigid.

I believe you're saying that I should make the 1/16th inch thick walls hollow? IF I've calculated the price correctly, I'm okay with leaving the walls 'solid' at 1/16th inch for structural strength, but thanks for the idea.

FUD vs Detail Plastic... Your wall thicknesses will be fine with detail plastic. The primary difference would be with embossed/recessed details. FUD will print details down to .1mm; detail plastic will print details down to .2mm. That means, if you want panel lines on your part, they'll have to be .2mm wide/deep (at least) if you use detail plastic, but they can go down to .1mm with FUD. If your details are larger than this, it doesn't matter. If both models are solid, detail plastic is a little cheaper (about 15%/cm3); but you'll be able to shell your model for FUD and won't be able to for detail, so FUD would ultimately be the cheapest way to go.

Thanks for all of the above info. I'm sure I'll be using it for future decisions. Unless I'm WAY off on the price, I'll be using FUD to get the highest resolution for this part, but for the much less detailed stuff, the 'Detail Plastic' will do just fine.

Finally, before you print your stuff... Save your STLs at the highest possible resolution you can while keeping it under your bureau's size limits. I think shapeways has a max file size of about 64 MB; you want to get as close as you possibly can to that, to get smoother prints with fewer visible polygons.

I had only vague idea of the info on the above paragraph, so again, thanks for the great info!

Tom

Edited January 30, 2015 by taneal1

[taneal1]

Seriously, just open your model in whatever 3D drawing software you're using and look at its properties. There will be some sort of measuring option that will give the model's volume. And if, for some weird reason, there isn't... just open the STL in NetFabb and IT will give you the model's volume. Way, way easier than trying to do back-of-the-envelope calculations, and more precise, too, since it will account for raised/recessed details.

Mofo,

Thanks for the advice, but at the moment I don't have any 3D software or an STL for my part. Now that I know it's possible to have this part printed at 30 microns or so, and that the price is reasonable, I'll go ahead and figure out how to do the drawing with one of Shapeways 3D programs or if something else is easier/better then I'll use that.

Any recommendations for a free 3D software that is easy enough for someone who's never used a 3D CAD program?

Tom

Edited January 30, 2015 by taneal1

[Hotdog]

I've been learning Rhino. It's free for the first 60 days. For a total newbie like me, it was easier to dive in and start modeling than Blender and the other free program I tried (can't remember the name at the moment). I got so lost in the mass of features and expansive GUI of Blender, where Rhino was a bit more straight-forward. I couldn't figure out how to shell in Blender, but with Rhino it was easy.

[taneal1]

Hey Hotdog,

I've been learning Rhino. It's free for the first 60 days. For a total newbie like me, it was easier to dive in and start modeling than Blender and the other free program I tried (can't remember the name at the moment). I got so lost in the mass of features and expansive GUI of Blender, where Rhino was a bit more straight-forward. I couldn't figure out how to shell in Blender, but with Rhino it was easy.

Thanks for the info.

Have you tried Solidworks? I have a copy installed on this computer, but I haven't had a chance to even START to learn it. It would probably take about 60 seconds to draw what I want - IF I had a clue as to how use the program. I know it's a popular program, but I don't think it's especially easy to learn...

Tom

[Hotdog]

I have not tried Solidworks, but it looks like it would be comparable to Blender. You may not need a program that robust to do what you want to do. It helped me a lot to watch online tutorials of people demonstrating how to model objects similar to what you're wanting to make. Trouble is, a lot of the online tutorials are not very newbie-friendly. I had to watch several videos before I felt comfortable choosing a software program.

FreeCAD was the other program I tried, but it was more script based. I wouldn't recommend that unless you already know some coding language (Python, I think).

[niart17]

Hey Hotdog,

Thanks for the info.

Have you tried Solidworks? I have a copy installed on this computer, but I haven't had a chance to even START to learn it. It would probably take about 60 seconds to draw what I want - IF I had a clue as to how use the program. I know it's a popular program, but I don't think it's especially easy to learn...

Tom

Solidworks should be perfect for doing what you want and although it may look a little intimidating, it's actually fairly intuitive if you've done any 2D cad work. for the cone, simply draw half of the profile in a closed path with the center line being one edge. Then revolve extrude that around the straight line center and you'll have the basis of your model. Adding details takes a little more thought but once you get to playing with it you should be able to come up with it. There are some good tutorials on Youtube as well. Good luck!

Bill

[Hobbes]

The most non-intuitive part of Solidworks is that dimensions and locations are undefined until you add a measurement or specification to your sketch. I've had that issue a few times with profiles I wanted to revolve as Bill describes. Despite drawing one edge of my profile on top of the centerline, Solidworks refused to revolve the profile until I specified the profile edge to be coincident with the centerline.

Otherwise, a few tutorials (Youtube is full of 'em) will get you a long way. And practice. You have to do this regularly, or you'll forget how it works.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Hobbes

[niart17]

The most non-intuitive part of Solidworks is that dimensions and locations are undefined until you add a measurement or specification to your sketch. I've had that issue a few times with profiles I wanted to revolve as Bill describes. Despite drawing one edge of my profile on top of the centerline, Solidworks refused to revolve the profile until I specified the profile edge to be coincident with the centerline.

Otherwise, a few tutorials (Youtube is full of 'em) will get you a long way. And practice. You have to do this regularly, or you'll forget how it works.

You make a good point. It is a bit backwards from some CAD programs (like Autocad for instance) in that you sketch the shape (or line or whatever) first and THEN define the size by giving it dimensions. I like it that way in all honesty. it makes it much easier to modify as you go if you have to. If you're more comfortable drawing in ACAD, you can draw your shapes, locate the point you want to be at your origin @ 0,0, and then cut and paste into a Solidworks sketch. I've done this many times when we have to make a model of a part we already have drawn in Autocad. Saves a ton of time. Once you get it in the sketch and confirmed all the paths are closed, you can simply tell the program to define the sketch automatically if you want. You can leave it undefined but that could cause issues if you move something by mistake.

Bill

[spaceman]

Hi there,

tomorrow, April 15th, Shapeways will introduce Frosted Extreme Detail (FXD) with a higher resolution than FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail), that will remain unchanged.

Here is the news.

[taneal1]

Thanks, Spaceman!

[niart17]

Yes, i just found out about this the other day. There wasn't much warning. It's good in that they are offering a higher resolution, but they are also discontinuing the lower resolution. I don't think they've announced any pricing yet but hopefully it won't be too much more than FUD. I will have to order one of my parts to see how much improvement it is.

Bill

[spaceman]

Yep, this comparison will be very interesting, and the price of course also.

Can't wait to see the new quality, hopefully without the striations.

[crackerjazz]

I'm gonna try it too :) I'm actually tempted to get some of that XTC-3D stuff that Hotdog used -- it's pretty awesome stuff. But I want to see, too, if this new material holds up to its promise.

[Aussie-Pete]

Looking fwd to this as well. I like Shapeways but not a fan of the best surface they now have. The graininess is still too much for my liking and difficult to paint.

[spaceman]

Yes, i just found out about this the other day. There wasn't much warning. It's good in that they are offering a higher resolution, but they are also discontinuing the lower resolution. I don't think they've announced any pricing yet but hopefully it won't be too much more than FUD. I will have to order one of my parts to see how much improvement it is.

Bill

Hello Bill,

which parts did you think?

[Hotdog]

I heard back from Shapeways, and the new higher-resolution FUD will have the same drawbacks as the old FUD. So, don't hold your breath. It's likely to still be just as brittle and prone to irregular surface textures and of course, frosting over.

Aussie-Pete, definately get some XTC-3D if you get anything from Shapeways made with White, Strong and Flexible. One thin coat will turn that grainy surface into a smooth, porcelain-like finish! I tried every possible smoothing technique and nothing worked like this miracle stuff!