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Cartograf decal problems


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Over the years, I've mainly used Superscale / Microscale decals and their setting solutions without any issues with regards to their actual application. With so many decal companies using Cartograf now, I've wound up with quite a few of them. They look absolutely beautiful on the sheet – but with the first few attempts at using them (to me) it seems like they look much better than they perform. I'm having issues with their "sticking" while placing them (and not wanting to be adjusted), easily folding over itself and not wanting to unfold. Worst of all, they seem to have a high probability of silvering in any clear area of the decal.

I've been using very warm water, Micro-Set / Micro Sol, over a very glossy surface – and still, lots of silvering. I've also tried (on a test bed) "Mr. Mark Softer" and Walthers Solvaset without any noticeable improvement. Outside of sticking too quickly before final adjustment, the decals without a clear area aren't an issue. It seems that almost every one that has clear area suffers from silvering – even on an exceptionally smooth, glossy surface.

Is there something I'm missing in their application, and does anybody have advice on a better technique for them? They look great – but this is really getting frustrating.

Hitch

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Over the years, I've mainly used Superscale / Microscale decals and their setting solutions without any issues with regards to their actual application. With so many decal companies using Cartograf now, I've wound up with quite a few of them. They look absolutely beautiful on the sheet – but with the first few attempts at using them (to me) it seems like they look much better than they perform. I'm having issues with their "sticking" while placing them (and not wanting to be adjusted), easily folding over itself and not wanting to unfold. Worst of all, they seem to have a high probability of silvering in any clear area of the decal.

I've been using very warm water, Micro-Set / Micro Sol, over a very glossy surface – and still, lots of silvering. I've also tried (on a test bed) "Mr. Mark Softer" and Walthers Solvaset without any noticeable improvement. Outside of sticking too quickly before final adjustment, the decals without a clear area aren't an issue. It seems that almost every one that has clear area suffers from silvering – even on an exceptionally smooth, glossy surface.

Is there something I'm missing in their application, and does anybody have advice on a better technique for them? They look great – but this is really getting frustrating.

Hitch

I think the problem is the very hot water, room temperature water with a drop of detergent is what I use.

Usually I go with micro set on top of a gloss coated surface and that makes it easy to move around. All really thin decals are prone to fold in on themselves....sometimes you can put the decal back into the water and there it can unfold if you're lucky.

cheers!

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Not sure but cartograf decals are the top notch. Usually after a set/sol process they conform like paint and aren't noticeable as decals. Not sure on the silvering issue. Are you letting he decal completely dry and it's still silvered or is this during the process it looks silvered? Maybe you can too much micro set trapped underneath the decal? On a high gloss you really shouldn't need the set much at all unless you want it to help the decal slide.

Try a needle point and microsol after the decal has dried. Tap the needle where the silvering is all over then apply some microsol. Should allow the solvent to penetrate and melt the decal film.

Also use gentle heat like a blow dryer or hold the model near a heat source gently when applying and drying the decal. This speeds up the shrinking process and helps the microsol do it's work to conform the decal.

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I'm currently using them on Academy's F-4b decaling is not my strong suit, but these are going down like a dream. I'm putting them down over a gloss coat of future, setting them with microset followed by a coat of microsol with absolutely no silvering, just using room temp water to release them, maybe the warm water is the culprit or perhaps the sheet is defective.

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Something that I and other decal guys have noticed is that Cartograf seems to have changed their decal paper to one with a stronger glue recently. That may be part of the issue you're having. I've certainly noticed a stronger "grab" when I've been using recent Cartograf printed decals.

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I've been using Cartograf decals for quite a few builds without any issues. Assuming that you're surface is glossy and smooth enough, I soak the decal in warm water, not hot water, then let it rest on a ceramic tile till it moves easily. I use Micro Set under the decal then more on top to help position it. I do this by pushing it gently with a small brush like the one that comes in the Solvaset jar. I let the decal rest for 1 min, then gently roll a damp Qtip over it in sever directions to displace any air and excess liquid from under the decal. Next is a coat of Micro Sol. I let it dry to the point where any wrinkling is gone, then gently roll it with a damp Qtip. Finally a light coat of Solvaset, and just let the decal fully air dry without rolling a Qtip over it.

Joel

Edited by Joel_W
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May I point out that different saliva has different acid or alkalinity levels?

Or are you proposing to bottle yours? :D

My personal experience seems to be

Decal

Warm water with hint/drop of detergent (to destroy the surface tension of water)

remove the decal once you can see that the paper has absorbed the water

move the decal to a piece of good paper towel and let the towel wick out what excess there is..

wait till decal is moveable.

move paper and decal to where you want (making sure that there is a splodge of water there from a loaded paintbrush)

ease the decal (with said paintbrush) onto area (or conversely, move the decal paper away from where you want the decal to go, allowing the decal to be placed almost in position immediately)

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Take the adhesive off the decal entirely. I've been doing that for upwards of 40 years and never had a problem. Decals do not require adhesive to stick to a model. If the surface is well prepared, and especially if you're putting a coat or coats of clear over them, just remove the stuff entirely and problem solved. Float the decal off the paper onto a wet surface (I usually use my palm), then just wash the adhesive away with water and then apply the decal. Works great.

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Take the adhesive off the decal entirely. I've been doing that for upwards of 40 years and never had a problem. Decals do not require adhesive to stick to a model. If the surface is well prepared, and especially if you're putting a coat or coats of clear over them, just remove the stuff entirely and problem solved. Float the decal off the paper onto a wet surface (I usually use my palm), then just wash the adhesive away with water and then apply the decal. Works great.

I think I just learned something. Thanks Jennings. I'm guessing the decal adhesive is, for the lack of a better phrase, "lumpy" to begin with, hence the silvering under clear parts. I usually don't have any problems with silvering, but on small decals like "No Step" ones, I almost always do.

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Take the adhesive off the decal entirely. I've been doing that for upwards of 40 years and never had a problem. Decals do not require adhesive to stick to a model. If the surface is well prepared, and especially if you're putting a coat or coats of clear over them, just remove the stuff entirely and problem solved. Float the decal off the paper onto a wet surface (I usually use my palm), then just wash the adhesive away with water and then apply the decal. Works great.

Jennings-

Are you saying cut the backing off of the decal, how about small lettering or stencils, can you elaborate.

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I do appreciate all your thoughts on this guys. I've never heard of your idea Jennings - sounds like it's worth a try. I don't normally have any issue with this process - that's why I thought it might be something peculiar to Cartograf that I wasn't familiar with.

Hitch

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Jennings,

That's a very interesting decaling method. I've gone to great lengths over the years not to wash off the adhesive with excess soaking in water. What makes the decal stick to the gloss surface if there is no "glue" as it dries? I would think that it may even curl as it dried, or at least have a edge or two curl?

Chuck does bring up an excellent point in that all small stencils seem to have air trapped under them when they dry no matter how carefully they're applied. Does your method eliminate this? and how do you handle such small decals? I build in 1/48 scale, and stenciling is an issue.

Joel

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Chuck does bring up an excellent point in that all small stencils seem to have air trapped under them when they dry no matter how carefully they're applied. Does your method eliminate this? and how do you handle such small decals? I build in 1/48 scale, and stenciling is an issue.

For the record, although I do usually have some silvering with small decals, I just expect it now and I nuke them all with extra Microsol and needle poking. It works very well and I get all the silvering out, but it's a pain. Yeah, yeah, I know, using a bit of Future will help eliminate this, but I find it too sticky (even diluted), it's hard to move the decal around to get the right position and I find it leaves small marks on the base Future surface.

Edited by chuck540z3
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For the record, although I do usually have some silvering with small decals, I just expect it now and I nuke them all with extra Microsol and needle poking. It works very well and I get all the silvering out, but it's a pain. Yeah, yeah, I know, using a bit of Future will help eliminate this, but I find it too sticky (even diluted), it's hard to move the decal around to get the right position and I find it leaves small marks on the base Future surface.

Chuck,

It really makes little sense when you think about it. If using Set under the decals and then over them followed by rolling a damp Qtip (my preferred method) works on all decals, it should work on the smallest of stencils, yet consistently, I have issues with stenciling. Jennings method of removing the glue would indeed allow the stencil to easily and evenly lay down on the surface, thus eliminating any air pockets in the glue, if that's the issue. As I said before, I'm concerned at to what actually holds the dried decal in place until it's over coated with Glosscoat. My other thought is that what we're actually seeing is the difference in light reflection on those small surfaces compared to the surrounding surface. That seams to be negated somewhat after Dull coating. Here's a close up on the top of the wings and fuselage on my current build. It's been Dull coated with Testors Dullcoat. There is no silvering that I can see looking at an angle. But looking directly down you can still see the shininess of the stencils. The final weathering process is a very light overall wash of light gray to tone and blend. That always removes the silvering or reflective issues for me.

Joel

F-15C02_02_15_190.jpg

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Nice Eagle Joel!

I know what you mean about light reflections being different on small decals vs. larger ones and the appearance of silvering when it really isn't, HOWEVER, if the little decals look different than the rest of the model, it's still a problem because they don't look natural. To fix this I really soak the small decals with Dullcoat until the reflective differences disappear. If they won't go away, there's a 90% chance there's actually silvering still present, so then I go with the Microsol and needle routine until it disappears. There is nothing worse than to have a beautifully constructed and finished model, but it has a few decals that are silvered- even slightly. Complete deal killer in my mind, so I go to great lengths to get rid of all of them. I'm not always successful on every one, but I certainly try.

Speaking of silvered decals and your Eagle, there was a great looking 1/32 Tamiya F-15C at a recent model contest. From 5 feet away, it looked awesome. At 2 feet away, I could see several silvered "No Step" and other small decals, which in my mind turned the model from a 9/10 to maybe a 5/10 instantly. Such a small error that could easily be fixed, but also BIG one at a model contest.

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Nice Eagle Joel!

I know what you mean about light reflections being different on small decals vs. larger ones and the appearance of silvering when it really isn't, HOWEVER, if the little decals look different than the rest of the model, it's still a problem because they don't look natural. To fix this I really soak the small decals with Dullcoat until the reflective differences disappear. If they won't go away, there's a 90% chance there's actually silvering still present, so then I go with the Microsol and needle routine until it disappears. There is nothing worse than to have a beautifully constructed and finished model, but it has a few decals that are silvered- even slightly. Complete deal killer in my mind, so I go to great lengths to get rid of all of them. I'm not always successful on every one, but I certainly try.

Speaking of silvered decals and your Eagle, there was a great looking 1/32 Tamiya F-15C at a recent model contest. From 5 feet away, it looked awesome. At 2 feet away, I could see several silvered "No Step" and other small decals, which in my mind turned the model from a 9/10 to maybe a 5/10 instantly. Such a small error that could easily be fixed, but also BIG one at a model contest.

Chuck,

That's exactly what I'm battling with the Eagle. Take a good look at the far wing. There are some NO STEPS that you can see what I think is still Silvering. Will very lightly sand with Micro Mesh pads to remove some of the Dullcoat, then poke a few holes, and go with Solvaset this time. Past that, I'll just accept what is as my best effort. My models are all just for personal display, and sharing here and one other site with fellow modelers.

Years ago I was heavily into IPMS contests, and was a regional judge and even a contest chairman & head judge on numerous occasions. So I've seen my fair share of what looked like a great model, actually not being such a outstanding build when it came to the basics, and thus never made it through the 1st few rounds of judging.

I'm also thinking that if some brave soul started to make decent masks for basic stencils, it would be a easy way out, and I'd be their best customer.

Joel

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Chuck,

Will very lightly sand with Micro Mesh pads to remove some of the Dullcoat, then poke a few holes, and go with Solvaset this time. Past that, I'll just accept what is as my best effort. My models are all just for personal display, and sharing here and one other site with fellow modelers.

Joel

Just in case you missed it, here's my silvered decal fix:

1)-Sand the decal lightly with 2000# sandpaper or other fine emery cloth to remove some of the dull coat and/or gloss coat

2)-Using a sharp needle or even the end of a NEW #11 knife, poke holes in all the silvered areas of the decal. Yes, a #11 knife seems kind of drastic, but if you’re very careful and just stab tiny holes without twisting the blade, you will never see them. I use a needle on small silvered areas and maybe a blade on larger ones.

3)-Apply Microsol to the silvered area leaving a drop of solution over the affected area. Using a needle only, poke more tiny holes where you see silvering. You will see the silvered areas get darker as the Microsol is allowed to leak underneath the decal and do its thing.

4)-As with any application of Microsol, let it sit for at least 15 minutes and dry. If it bubbles up a bit, don’t worry. The bubbles will either go away themselves or you will have further chances to eliminate them later.

5)-If you’re lucky the first time, which is rare, the silvering will be gone. If not, repeat #3 followed by #4, which will also give you a chance to poke any small bubbles that may have popped up. Be careful not to overdo it with each application of Microsol. This usually takes 2-3 tries, but I’ve actually fought with a stubborn decal for 6-8 applications over the span of 2 days.

6)- When the decal is bone dry and you’re happy with the results, lightly sand it again with 2000# sandpaper. This will remove any high spots, but again, be careful and don’t overdo it.

7)- Apply another coat of dull coat, but this time let the clear coat pool a bit over the decal to completely seal it in. If it comes out a bit lumpy, let it thoroughly dry again, sand it, then reapply the clear dull coat.

8)- Smile. That silvered decal now looks perfect again and shows no sign of being worked on.

My track record with silvered decals using the above method is about 95%. I have had a few rare decals that really kicked my butt, so I either left them alone because I didn’t really care and they were mostly hidden, or I completely sanded them down, repainted the affected area and tried it all over again.

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Chuck your work speaks for itself - so I'll put that information "in the file".

With regards to Academy - when their first 1/32 F/A-18 came out - there was a notorious problem with their decals not sticking (they had a great weapons sheet - and I tried them - yup - wouldn't stick at all).

I bought this particular Hornet because of the Cartograf sheet - and it has the "look" of other Cartograf sheets - but I don't have any other details other than what I've already said.

It is interesting to see how everyone approaches this though.

Hitch

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Those F-15 ailerons there, one should point up, the other down, Ailerons are used in pairs to control the aircraft in roll.. or is this one of many mystical characteristics Eagles have, as they are called ..super manoeuvrable.

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Chuck your work speaks for itself - so I'll put that information "in the file".

With regards to Academy - when their first 1/32 F/A-18 came out - there was a notorious problem with their decals not sticking (they had a great weapons sheet - and I tried them - yup - wouldn't stick at all).

I bought this particular Hornet because of the Cartograf sheet - and it has the "look" of other Cartograf sheets - but I don't have any other details other than what I've already said.

It is interesting to see how everyone approaches this though.

Hitch

Thanks Hitch.

I've experienced the same problems with those very same decals. They aren't all bad, but all of the yellow ones are useless. I tried to use some recently on the ordnance on my A-10 build and the yellow Maverick bands would NOT stick or conform to anything. Just for fun, I put one of them in a pool of 100% Microsol for 30 minutes. The decal did nothing and came out of the solution like it was made of plastic. The only difference I can see with the yellow decals on that sheet is that they have a fairly thick white backing, which most of the other decals do not. I think that backing must be the problem.

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