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Some of you may remember that my son is an ROTC cadet at the University of Central Florida.

He had put in for pilot, but today he was notified of his selection for CSO (combat systems officer), which is what the USAF is calling back seaters these days. Before the rated board met, he had already been selected for space operations, which is itself a difficult to get job.

Now he has to chose between the two. If you had to chose between being a back seater and being a space operations officer, what would you pick? We have also entertained the possibility of calling up the Navy to see if there is any way he can switch over and get pilot training. If there is anyone here who has good info on how feasible that is, I would appreciate hearing from them.

Thanks.

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My decision would be based on what his MOS will yield for job prospects after he is out. Especially if he is not going to do a 20 year stint. I would think being a backseater in a tactical jet would not be much of a resume builder.

I know a kid that got into UAV's as a sensor operator and later as a maint tech. The guy did 5 years, got out as an E-6 and is now out in the private sector as a contractor, making 6 figures and only working 7-8 months out of the year!

If I could only do it all over again.....

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Space then go off into the NRO world. Big $$$ if he choses to get out, lots of cool things to do if not. CSO is a dying career field. That said, I have 2 college buds that did CSO to Pilot in the USAF and made O-6. One is a flying Group CO will be an O-7 soon.

Edited by Spongebob
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If he want's to fly, CSO. I would steer him more toward the SOF community (U-28/AC-130/MC-130)....it's not easy and you are going to deploy a lot (trust me....a lot, but it's rewarding). I have a lot of contact with past and current CSO's, tell him to go to BASEOPS.net to ask questions to current members for guidance. While your CSO skills may not translate to the outside world (flying backseat), it's the education and leadership skills you develop that future employers will want. CSO to pilot, very possible, If he want's to fly a robot (MQ-1/9/others)...that world is wide open.

Space: met and worked with a few. Space is a different beast, but the same rules apply...education and leadership skills learned on the job is what transfers to the outside world. Base choices not the best.

For EITHER job, tell him to get and keep a TS/SCI clearance. That is worth $$$$ and opens doors on the outside.

Cheers

Collin

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Space then go off into the NRO world. Big $ if he choses to get out, lots of cool things to do if not. CSO is a dying career field. That said, I have 2 college buds that did CSO to Pilot in the USAF and made O-6. One is a flying Group CO will be an O-7 soon.

CSO to pilot? There is a program for that?

At this point, he is leaning towards space. The basic cause of the non-select was his failure to participate regularly in ROTC military leadership roles/drill. He focused on getting a high GPA as an engineering major instead. He somehow got the impression that was more important. This may have been partially my fault and the Naval academy interviewers fault way back when. Before AF ROTC, he was a Congressional Naval Academy nominee. Both of us emphasized the importance of an engineering major as a break out factor for pilot select for the Navy. The Air Force apparently does not emphasize it as heavily. Another issue is the AF ROTC cadre knew my son was in it for pilot training, and during his semester reviews told him he was on the right track...everything was good, etc. Then the time comes and the (new, non tech major) CO calls him in and tells him he will not endorse for a rated spot because of lack of demonstrated military leadership.......he did not participate in enough drills.....that it was not all about being smart and bookwork....that he could not count on studying a lot and getting really high grades to carry the day...whole person concept, etc. When asked why all this time the cadre had told him everything looked good, no concerns or issues, the CO says, "Well that is true with regards to getting your commission. Not specifically for getting a rated pilot slot." My son was blindsided and shocked. The thing is, he is not a "bookworm" type. He is also a gifted athlete, was the QB of his football team, looks the part, hard worker, etc, and would have found a way to do some extra drills if he had realized the importance of it.

However, another part of this is me/him not doing due diligence. In addition to the published info I am sure he was handed when he walked in the door of ROTC, it only takes about a minute to search online and read about the criteria used for rated select for pilot and how it is weighted. If you read that, and choose to forget it, and leave it on the table, you have yourself to blame. If I had researched it, I would have asked him about his participation and urged him to do it. If he had remembered, or it was made clear to him by his cadre during any semester review that he was deficient in a required area, things would be different now.

Edited by DutyCat
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Interesting. Tough situation because you know if he walks down the hall and tries to break in/shift his flag to the NROTC unit, the first thing the Navy CO is going to do is call the AFROTC CO. Bird in the hand situation. CSO might be best options and in the future look for a pilot transition to UPT.

Cheers

Collin

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I'm a bit surprised that you are surprised that failure to attend ROTC drills could have an impact on his ability to get a plumb assignment after graduation. I did the ROTC thing for a very short time before deciding it wasn't for me and it was quite clear from day 1 that attendance wasn't optional, it was expected.

It is the military after all...

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I'm a bit surprised that you are surprised that failure to attend ROTC drills could have an impact on his ability to get a plumb assignment after graduation. I did the ROTC thing for a very short time before deciding it wasn't for me and it was quite clear from day 1 that attendance wasn't optional, it was expected.

It is the military after all...

I was surprised at the non select. I did not know he was not attending the normal # of drills. He says he was surprised at the non select because the cadre was telling him everything was good. Having never been in ROTC and having never been an officer, I relied on his paying attention to what he was going through to make the correct choices. I know the military tells you exactly what is expected, and he is a smart boy, and if nothing else, it is all written down and handed to you on day 1, as you said. How this slipped by him I have no idea, except for perhaps the thing about the cadre telling him every semester everything was fine.

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Interesting. Tough situation because you know if he walks down the hall and tries to break in/shift his flag to the NROTC unit, the first thing the Navy CO is going to do is call the AFROTC CO. Bird in the hand situation. CSO might be best options and in the future look for a pilot transition to UPT.

Cheers

Collin

I think he would stick with space rather than do that. He is loathe to be a back seater and have all the pilot non-engineering types who actually did the drills like they were supposed to look down their nose at him as a CSO with good eyes wondering why he was not good enough to make the cut for pilot. Also, he does not want to be around the planes and not be able to fly them when he knows he can.

It was a bit different for me. I looked at it as being part of the team. Not everyone flies the jet and it is not always just about that. In complex mission oriented aircraft, the pilot is often the bus driver. The real action goes on with the mission crew in the back, although John G Public and the pilots themselves always think it is about being a pilot and nothing else.

When I was in Vikings, we knew and appreciated the difference between pilots and mission oriented ASW pilots...pilots whose heart was into contributing to the sub hunt. It shows in their attitudes and in the way they handle the jet. A Hornet wannabee pilot is a bad thing in the S-3, as you have just enough performance in the Viking to get this guy to the edge of his jolly envelope.

Edited by DutyCat
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Duty, I'm not one for sugar coating things.

His attitude is all wrong. Fully understand the hurt feelings from dropping the ball and not getting the brass ring out of ROTC (rated pilot spot), but he has very little SA on what pilots/CSO teams do in the USAF to be making a blanket statement like that. All my kinetic actions in country...I was not talking to pilots....I was talking to the CSO's who were in the fight with me (except for single seat types (Hornets/Harriers/A-10's)and that is another story.....aka, I wish F-16's had a CSO).

Go space and never have a chance to transition to pilot. Go CSO and keep that option alive. His choice but make sure he realizes that.

Either way, you join the military to lead people, not fly. It took me years to realize this, and that is a bad on me (I only had flying on the brain after I graduated NROTC). It wasn't until I was shot at in-country that leading folks is the ultimate reason you serve, and I learned that lesson.

Collin

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Duty, I'm not one for sugar coating things.

His attitude is all wrong. Fully understand the hurt feelings from dropping the ball and not getting the brass ring out of ROTC (rated pilot spot), but he has very little SA on what pilots/CSO teams do in the USAF to be making a blanket statement like that. All my kinetic actions in country...I was not talking to pilots....I was talking to the CSO's who were in the fight with me (except for single seat types (Hornets/Harriers/A-10's)and that is another story.....aka, I wish F-16's had a CSO).

Go space and never have a chance to transition to pilot. Go CSO and keep that option alive. His choice but make sure he realizes that.

Either way, you join the military to lead people, not fly. It took me years to realize this, and that is a bad on me (I only had flying on the brain after I graduated NROTC). It wasn't until I was shot at in-country that leading folks is the ultimate reason you serve, and I learned that lesson.

Collin

You are correct. No doubt about it. Unfortunately, as you indicated, the correct attitude comes with some experience. He is young. He knows all that in his head, but on the ground here, he is in a competitive environment with a bunch of other folks all trying to get he most plum job out of school. But even among experienced folks with the correct attitude, there is an unofficial class system in the military among officers...it is just a natural thing. Back seaters/mission specialists think "team" and pilots often think, "team, but I am the QB." No one says it, but it is there.

In any case, it is what it is. I will talk to him some more, but at this point I think he will likely go space rather than be around the jets and not be able to fly them. Also, I really think he is just about as interested in space as he is flying anyway. A lot of the flying influence comes from me.

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You are correct. No doubt about it. Unfortunately, as you indicated, the correct attitude comes with some experience. He is young. He knows all that in his head, but on the ground here, he is in a competitive environment with a bunch of other folks all trying to get he most plum job out of school. But even among experienced folks with the correct attitude, there is an unofficial class system in the military among officers...it is just a natural thing. Back seaters/mission specialists think "team" and pilots often think, "team, but I am the QB." No one says it, but it is there.

In any case, it is what it is. I will talk to him some more, but at this point I think he will likely go space rather than be around the jets and not be able to fly them. Also, I really think he is just about as interested in space as he is flying anyway. A lot of the flying influence comes from me.

Duty Cat (& Co),

Little late to the conversation courtesy of some awesome skiing conditions in northern Japan. Lots of good comments on here already but at the risk of adding to the dog pile I'll add my two cents…

Disclaimer up front - I'm an active duty Naval Flight Officer who went through the joint NFO / WSO (at the time) training pipeline at Training Wing Six, NAS Pensacola in 2004 - 2005. The program for CSOs has changed some since I went through but I'm reasonably familiar with the training track. Like your son, I was a heartbroken aspiring pilot who practically had to be put on suicide watch when I got the bad news that a pilot training slot wasn't going to happen; in my case, the pain may have been worse due to some self-inflicted burden of trying to measure up to my dad and grandfather (both retired Naval Aviators). However, I eventually got over the dissappointment and jumped on an NFO billet, understanding that their was still an important mission to be performed and that NFOs perform leadership roles both in the air and on the ground. I worked hard through flight training, got my first choice of aircraft (E-2s - ironically not always a desired choice), and then on reaching the Fleet had an exciting and fulfilling experience qualifying as Mission Commander. I might not have been flying the aircraft - but the two pilots up front who did were working for me while on mission! Bottom line - there's fun to be had even in the back seat.

When I went through Pensacola as a student, the only Air Force students there were on the Strike Syllabus destined for either F-15E s or B-1s; there was a separate Panel Nav school at Randolph AFB that trained folks for roles in B-52s, KC-135s, C-130s, etc. In the past few years, the two training tracks have been consolidated into one with the Combat System Officer career path and all introductary training occurs in Pensacola. I understand there's been some reduction of CSO positions as certain airframes have been either retired or had avionics upgrades, but the current stable of CSO platforms offers some pretty interesting missions: F-15E, B-52, B-1, RC-135, EC / MC / AC-130s. Whether it's helping drop iron, conduct ISR, or supporting the Special Ops guys, I'm not sure if there's a bad deal in the bunch - plus I have yet to hear of newly winged CSOs being drafted as UAV operators right of flight school as has happened to UPT graduates.

I hope your son takes the opportunity to talk to some current CSOs, and Space Operations officers, and hear their experiences first-hand - I'm confident most the CSOs will say they love their jobs. As for the Space Ops types - well I could say something snarky about how much fun it must be sit in a bunker and monitor satellite orbits, but let's just say the few I've met were less than thrilled will their career choice. Getting your foot into the door of military aviation is an opportunity that usually comes once upon commissioning; my class leader in Pensacola was an exception as an Air Force Capt who fought and tooth and nail to break away from his original ground based career path, finally succeeding only right before he reached the age limit. I'd hate for your son to turn down an opportunity now that he might regret later in life.

Regardless of his choice, I hope he follows his heart and has fun!

-Scoobs

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Some of you may remember that my son is an ROTC cadet at the University of Central Florida.

He had put in for pilot, but today he was notified of his selection for CSO (combat systems officer), which is what the USAF is calling back seaters these days. Before the rated board met, he had already been selected for space operations, which is itself a difficult to get job.

Now he has to chose between the two. If you had to chose between being a back seater and being a space operations officer, what would you pick? We have also entertained the possibility of calling up the Navy to see if there is any way he can switch over and get pilot training. If there is anyone here who has good info on how feasible that is, I would appreciate hearing from them.

Thanks.

If he wants to be in the air, space isn't the way to go. Does he like working inside while monitoring info? Does he enjoy artificial lighting and computer screens? Those are career issues we all have to ask ourselves when setting ourselves up for a while.

If he wants to fly please for the love of god take the back-seater position.

What's the better way to spend your workday? In the skies, in different situations, working alone with a trusted partner, OR in an enclosed building, under artificial lighting, with a significant portion of your chain of command around you at all times?

Some people desire desk jobs but others just can't have it. Your son should decide to be a back-seater because its a hell of a lot better than being a desk-seater.

EDIT: Oh yeah, ask him if he will be able to live with himself in a few decades knowing he passed up an opportunity to get some wings (and the extra pay, respect as an aviator, adventure), and instead chose an intellectually intense desk job, not saying he couldn't be good at both.

Edited by Exhausted
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If he wants to be in the air, space isn't the way to go. Does he like working inside while monitoring info? Does he enjoy artificial lighting and computer screens? Those are career issues we all have to ask ourselves when setting ourselves up for a while.

If he wants to fly please for the love of god take the back-seater position.

What's the better way to spend your workday? In the skies, in different situations, working alone with a trusted partner, OR in an enclosed building, under artificial lighting, with a significant portion of your chain of command around you at all times?

Some people desire desk jobs but others just can't have it. Your son should decide to be a back-seater because its a hell of a lot better than being a desk-seater.

EDIT: Oh yeah, ask him if he will be able to live with himself in a few decades knowing he passed up an opportunity to get some wings (and the extra pay, respect as an aviator, adventure), and instead chose an intellectually intense desk job, not saying he couldn't be good at both.

As the Blue Suiters say - SHACK!!! Best synopsis of the CSO / Space Ops decision that I've seen.

For students of Air Force history, it's worth noting the stories of several disappointed Navs that turned out alright in the long run:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_C._McConnell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_B._DeBellevue

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

-Scoobs

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My humble opinion here as an observer (no military background at all). If flying is what he's always wanted, a CSO slot is a dream come true. Yes, he won't be piloting the aircraft, but he will be flying! I would give everything for an opportunity like that.

I wish him the best of luck and success in whatever career path he chooses.

Rob

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Gil, I'm not trying to pile on and I'm going to try and be as tactful as possible here, because he is your boy and I'm sure you are proud of him regardless. But these posts man, they are some heavy contradictions and some serious excuse making for him. Please don't give him an "out" on this. Tell him to be a CSO, and work his way up. Tell if people look down on him, screw those people and keep plugging away. Tell him to volunteer every chance he gets and get noticed, to seek responsibility and take responsibility for his actions. Officers and Enlisted will start to know and respect him. He set himself back, and now he has to work harder to get where and what he wants. Welcome to real life, its been waiting for him all these years outside of school.

I was surprised at the non select. I did not know he was not attending the normal # of drills. He says he was surprised at the non select because the cadre was telling him everything was good. Having never been in ROTC and having never been an officer, I relied on his paying attention to what he was going through to make the correct choices. I know the military tells you exactly what is expected, and he is a smart boy, and if nothing else, it is all written down and handed to you on day 1, as you said. How this slipped by him I have no idea, except for perhaps the thing about the cadre telling him every semester everything was fine.

TLDR? he should have known better, they told him it was fine because everyone wants to be a pilot, and with a select number of slots this made things easier on the cadre. The people who showed up and did what was expected are going to get the plum jobs they wanted because they worked for them, or at least went through the motions.

I think he would stick with space rather than do that. He is loathe to be a back seater and have all the pilot non-engineering types who actually did the drills like they were supposed to look down their nose at him as a CSO with good eyes wondering why he was not good enough to make the cut for pilot.

Good-- and then prove them wrong.

Also, he does not want to be around the planes and not be able to fly them when he knows he can.

Knows he can?

It was a bit different for me. I looked at it as being part of the team. Not everyone flies the jet and it is not always just about that. In complex mission oriented aircraft, the pilot is often the bus driver. The real action goes on with the mission crew in the back, although John G Public and the pilots themselves always think it is about being a pilot and nothing else.

When I was in Vikings, we knew and appreciated the difference between pilots and mission oriented ASW pilots...pilots whose heart was into contributing to the sub hunt. It shows in their attitudes and in the way they handle the jet. A Hornet wannabee pilot is a bad thing in the S-3, as you have just enough performance in the Viking to get this guy to the edge of his jolly envelope.

so why havn't you emphasized this to him? what you have written above makes the CSO seem like a no brainer. "son, screw piloting do you want to get the job done and kill bad guys? while some jagoff practices landing and takeoff endlessly?"

You are correct. No doubt about it. Unfortunately, as you indicated, the correct attitude comes with some experience. He is young. He knows all that in his head, but on the ground here, he is in a competitive environment with a bunch of other folks all trying to get he most plum job out of school. But even among experienced folks with the correct attitude, there is an unofficial class system in the military among officers...it is just a natural thing. Back seaters/mission specialists think "team" and pilots often think, "team, but I am the QB." No one says it, but it is there.

don't start down that path. Yes he is young, but he still should have known better his-- peers did. Maturity being one of the key ingredients to be a good leader, what did we think was going to happen. Yes he is young, the average Marine is 19, and he doesn't get the "but I'm young!" excuse, he is kicking down doors with live rounds in A-stan.

Moreover, since it is a competitive environment as you just said, doesn't that mean there is less and less latitude for any deviance or mistake? That's the essence of competition right? If he knows its competitive, he should have known better.

you need to be telling him to frame his narrative, not explaining your perception of officer sub classes. Back seaters are the real QBs anyway. At least in my little fishing village. If you want to teach him about classes, teach him about "blue collar" officers and "white Collar" god knows enlisted people can see them instantly, and it can't be faked.

If he wants to fly then let him be a CSO, as often happens in the military the job you didn't think you wanted ends up being better than the one you did want. in 3 years he might be thanking god he didn't become a pilot. I know a lot of guys who joined to fly fast jets and got helicopters instead and of course now wouldn't trade it for the world. They'd rather do missions, thanks. One of those missions being rescuing "dehorsed" fighter pilots BTW.

Same thing happens on the Ground side. USMC infantry officers make fighter pilots look like humble gray men. A lot of people in the USMC loathe infantry officers because they are told from day one the USMC revolves around them. Arty officers, tankers, etc get a lot more respect thanks to their work ethic, or at least lack of ego.

My best friend is arty and some infantry officers started giving him a hard time, he started talking to them and it turns out he had not only deployed twice as often, but when he deployed he actually left the ship and went ashore. I guess he was just too busy deploying and firing weapons and leading Marines, and leading Marines in infantry work (ironically) as well to realize he wasn't cool like them. After wanting to be an infantry officer before he joined, sure enough 3 years in he was offered his chance to be infantry his "dream job" and he flat turned it down. After a couple years experience you literally couldn't pay him to be an Infantry officer. It was too easy compared to running a Fire Direction Center. Besides Arty officers do infantry work as well already, but god knows Infantry officers can't do arty.

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In the end its his call, he can do what he wants-- but the bottom line is he is going to have to prove himself wherever he goes, and that's true even of pilots. So people are going to look down on him until he shows he is worth damn and every job in the military has its own little sub groups, and he will start from the bottom (and rightly so, thats where brown bars belong). He can't dodge that bullet. the "QB" isn't necessarily the guy in the QB position. know what I'm sayin? "Don't confuse my rank with my authority" was the slogan I often heard and repeated, and the more I looked at it, the more I noticed that its true. "I was a always Sergeant, even when I had Lance Corporal stripes"

Gil, its a game. It only matters if you think it matters. If you want to cry yourself to sleep in your super man PJs because you think a pilot looks down on you, thats your call. Or you can ignore whatever perception you THINK he has about you and just get on with your work. I have seen pilots do immensely stupid things they are incredibly human. So to me (and no offense to the pilots here because ARC actually seems to have smart pilots who have a sense of self and sense of humor) Pilots are flying bus drivers. Someone else may think they are the reincarnation of Duke and Randy with some Bong and Rickenbacher thrown in, but to me "the only people impressed by pilots are other pilots and kids (and theyll grow out of it!)" Think about it. Who gives pilots the sense of pure awesome? you or them?

Someone else said it better:

You'll also observe something that you learned completely backwards. If a bully beats you up, it's even worse if you tell on him, if you're a tattle tale, it reveals you to be less of a man (or kid.) But think about this for a second: where did you learn that you'd be less of a man? From the bully. In other words, that threat is entirely for the bully's benefit, it in no way reflects anyone else's reality, yet you bought into it completely. Why? And the answer is that, in the bully's system, in the bully's "frame", telling is a sign of weakness, worse than getting beat up; and since you have agreed to operate in his system, since you have agreed to operate by his rules (say, a fist fight you could never win), in those rules if you don't tell, you at least retain your dignity. Which of course you don't, the whole thing is madness-- to anyone not inside that system. I take this diversion to show you the immense power of "the system" on: how you act, what you want, what you value, what you fear.

TLDR? Gil your son should do what he wants, but that decision shouldn't be guided by anyone else's perceptions of him as a man or a leader.if we wants space,do space-- but if he wants space because of some fear that pilots will be meanie heads to him that's the wrong reason. Its the military, people are going to assume he is stupid until proven otherwise anyway. Brown Bars keep getting worse and worse. Collin made the point to that switching services may put you in the same spot (even worse) because it looks like you jumped ship when the consequences of the actions caught up with you, and you didn't get what you "wanted", and felt you deserved.

Honestly I'm not so concerned about your son's choice of MOS as I am your son's choices so far. Maturity, judgement, responsibility, confidence, these are all things leaders need to have regardless of job.

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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Thanks everyone for their thoughtful responses. Some of you really took the time to think and offer sound observations and advice.

I posted some of your comments in an email to him. All of this is stewing around in his head.

What is making this tough for him is that he is REALLY interested in space...as much as flying. So there is the rub...although he would not turn down a pilot slot, he is very torn on the relative merits of CSO vs Space. We are mostly aviators on this board. Our perspective is naturally skewed toward "fly no matter what, in any capacity that you can." The fact that I am a ex-back seater and pilot is a factor. He wants to please me. Why do you think he applied to the Naval Academy and then AFROTC in the first place?

Now, about Space. He is slated right now to go to launch operations. He has been influenced by living here in Florida, seeing shuttle launches, and now the ramp up of Orion and SLS. He envisions eventually going to work for NASA, ULA, SPACE-X, or whoever at KSC later on.

In order to even be selected for space ops, you have to be a science, engineering, or medical major. He is a civil engineering major. He is the only cadet in the past three years of ROTC at UCF to be selected for space operations. They only make about 30 per year. So it is not about "settling" for space ops. He competitively selected for it. He wanted it. If he were fortunate enough to get a rated pilot slot, then of course he would have taken that, for a whole host of reasons. But he didn't. Is it his fault? Mostly. When he first failed to select for pilot, he said he wanted no part of CSO. With the input of you kind folks on the board here, he is more open minded about it than before, but I can tell in his heart he still would rather be involved in space operations than be a CSO. In his mind, right or wrong, as a CSO, he is settling....not living up to his potential. If he had vision issues and got NPQed from pilot, it might be different, but that is not the case. He thinks that his selection for CSO is a result of the circumstances,...partially on him, and partially on mis-communication. As a CSO, he would be reminded of that every day when he climbed into the back seat, or cabin...or every time someone sees him in a flight suit, talks to him, and he ends up having to tell them he is not a pilot. It would be an almost constant reminder of being just not quite good enough. Because of all of this and some family factors, as I write this, he feels in the long run space will be a better fit for him.

He has an appointment on Friday with his CO, who was a T-Bird pilot, for one last little career chat. The CO will probably try to talk him into CSO, as he is an aviator. I will support whatever my son decides he wants to do.

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Several (perhaps relevant) comments:

1. If he is planning to make a career of the USAF, any kind of wings are an advantage (speaking as a retired non-rated officer here). We used to call any kind of rated-aircrew wings the "Universal Management Badge".

2. I know you said he is looking at space ops - make sure he understands exactly what job is (as there seems to have been some degree of misinformation and/or lack of due diligence in the past). Space ops used to include the missile launch career field - I think they were separated a few years back. Nothing necessarily wrong with missile ops if that is indeed his goal, but babysitting a bunch of Minuteman IIIs in a capsule in North Dakota is different than launching a Delta-IV Heavy from SLC-37 at the Cape. No beach at either Dakota so far is I am aware.

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Several (perhaps relevant) comments:

1. If he is planning to make a career of the USAF, any kind of wings are an advantage (speaking as a retired non-rated officer here). We used to call any kind of rated-aircrew wings the "Universal Management Badge".

2. I know you said he is looking at space ops - make sure he understands exactly what job is (as there seems to have been some degree of misinformation and/or lack of due diligence in the past). Space ops used to include the missile launch career field - I think they were separated a few years back. Nothing necessarily wrong with missile ops if that is indeed his goal, but babysitting a bunch of Minuteman IIIs in a capsule in North Dakota is different than launching a Delta-IV Heavy from SLC-37 at the Cape. No beach at either Dakota so far is I am aware.

Strategic Missile Ops are now separated. He is not that. He is a 13S.

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Strategic Missile Ops are now separated. He is not that. He is a 13S.

About a year ago after the cheating scandal any officer who failed out of school was made a missilear. Be awared. I don't know if its still like that, but the officers washing out of UAV school were being sent straight there.

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Hope the chat with the CO went well for him.

I had to chuckle about the engineering degree conversation. I started out as an ME and as my sophomore year was winding down my NROTC class advisor (an A-6 BN) sat me down and explained that the grades I was pulling as an ME were probably not going to get me a pilot slot, grades were very important, the Navy didn't really give a sh1t about what my degree was and that I needed to think hard about what I wanted to do. So I switched to Political Science (Poly Sci to fly) and never looked back over 20 years as a Naval Aviator. Now I lead an S&T team at NAVAIR as a civilian and still do not have an STEM degree.

Overall, most of the fellow aviators I've worked with didn't have STEM degrees (actually, seemed like there were more NFO's with them) and I ran into plenty of ship drivers with Aero degrees. The bud I mentioned earlier who's on track for O-7 is also a PSCI guy. He was part of a group that was tracking towards a pilot slot, communism died and the slots dried up. He went CSO (actually EWO in AFSOC), did his penalty time and picked up a UPT slot. Unlike the guys who went somewhere else then came back to UPT, his career wasn't screwed because CSO/Pilot careers are quite interchangeable until you get to O-4.

Had a couple AF Space Ops dudes working for me on my recent trip downrange...good dudes.

Spongebob

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