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Swapping from Air Force to Navy at the end of ROTC


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Sorry to start a separate thread, but my son is a senior in USAF ROTC and will graduate next December. He is a Civil Engineering major at the University of Central Florida. He has been selected for CSO (what the USAF calls back seaters these days), but wants pilot training. He has a high GPA, and high pilot suitability test scores. He is physically fit and looks and acts the part. He wants to be a pilot. Is swapping over to the Navy feasible at this point if they will grant him pilot training? I will contact a Navy officer recruiter here in Jacksonville, of course, but I wanted to find out if anyone here on ARC has any insight.

Edited by DutyCat
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I started out in AFROTC my first two years of college. It was the late 80's and there was a drawn down. USAF said no pilot slot for me. I bailed and called everyone! ANG, USMC, Army & Navy. USMC has guaranteed flight slots. I got called by the Navy got a pilot slot and went to OCS after graduation. Is your son under contract with the AF? Feel free to PM

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Sorry to start a separate thread, but my son is a senior in USAF ROTC and will graduate next December. He is a Civil Engineering major at the University of Central Florida. He has been selected for CSO (what the USAF calls back seaters these days), but wants pilot training. He has a high GPA, and high pilot suitability test scores. He is physically fit and looks and acts the part. He wants to be a pilot. Is swapping over to the Navy feasible at this point if they will grant him pilot training? I will contact a Navy officer recruiter here in Jacksonville, of course, but I wanted to find out if anyone here on ARC has any insight.

Just remember that recruiters only lie when they open their mouth.

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He could always go to Army flight school and fly swing wings!🚁

Tim

Don't even need a college degree (at least that used to be the case back when I was in). Recruiters would tell you "high school to flight school". Not quite that simple, lots of steps on the way but it was appealing nonetheless. That was my plan until I figured out I wouldn't come close to passing the vision test, Plan B for me was MOS 11B.

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Sorry to start a separate thread, but my son is a senior in USAF ROTC and will graduate next December. He is a Civil Engineering major at the University of Central Florida. He has been selected for CSO (what the USAF calls back seaters these days), but wants pilot training. He has a high GPA, and high pilot suitability test scores. He is physically fit and looks and acts the part. He wants to be a pilot. Is swapping over to the Navy feasible at this point if they will grant him pilot training? I will contact a Navy officer recruiter here in Jacksonville, of course, but I wanted to find out if anyone here on ARC has any insight.

I would also start looking at Guard units. Maybe the JAX guard unit has some slots.

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I did AFROTC and taught Naval pilot training as an AF pilot.

I would go directly to the school Navy ROTC unit, only THEY can tell you what they can do for you. AVOID recruiters like a used car salesman.

In the end, you can fly longer as a pilot in the USAF during your career. But Navy/USMC has more flight slots and a better chance of getting in.

The Naval pilot training is also considered "big boy" as in you just know your stuff, show up, fly and go home. Whereas the USAF keeps you in the classroom all day 12hrs a day, forever grinding down your morale.

Of course how well you do in primary pilot training phases dictates where you go, fighters, helos, fixed wing etc...

These days the USAF is reactionary, today they need pilots bad, tomorrow they dont, then Friday they realize they were wrong again and really need pilots bad. If I were him I'd go with whoever is offering a slot. You can transfer services from Navy to USAF later on in his life if he desires it once he has wings. Or Airlines, cause its looking prosperous too.

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A trait they share with career planners....

LOL career planners are more magical than recruiters. Recruiters are talking to kids who don't know any better, Career Planners are talking to adults who know better and have to get them to forget what they know LOL.

"wait did I just commit to more time in an institution I have been counting the days to leave for the last 4 years?"

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Well, he isn't going to give up what he has unless he has a flight training slot in writing from the Navy. If he stays USAF, he has decided that he would rather be a space operations officer than a CSO. We are here in Florida and both my sons and I are big into NASA, Apollo, STS, and the SLS/Orion program. If he stays the path, he goes to Vandenberg AFB in CA for his first tour, but would end up at CCAFB/KSC at some point, so that would be good for family.

He is under contract to the USAF, so the Navy may not even talk to him. I will find out next week.

BTW, I never had a recruiter lie to me that I am aware of.

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I've known at least 10 USAF CSOs that have applied to and been selected for pilot training after they'd been CSOs for 2-3 years. Most of them have done very well at UPT coming from the CSO background. Not all the CSOs that apply get picked up of course; the ones with the best shot are the ones that focus on being the best CSOs they can be.

Just another option, but certainly no guarantees.

Jonah

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I don't know that it's a formal program, but there have always been "backseaters" who have been selected for UPT. My class leader back in 1983-84 had been a B-52 navigator, and I know there were one or two others in my class. It's certainly a possibility.

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Be careful Duty. Have your son walk over and talk to the NROTC folks at the school.

BL: There is no guaranteed flight slot in the Navy process (Marines yes...at least they had it when I went though NROTC). Needs of the Navy at the time dictates what community you go to (don't need to tell you that, you have been through the process). Getting something in writing from the Navy saying "here is your ticket to API/Pensacola to start flight school" isn't in the cards. He will take the aptitude tests like everyone else and join the pool of candidates. He should find out how many others in the graduating Navy ROTC class want a pilot spot as well, there are only so many slots. Also, the Navy has a lot of helos, so if he gets into Navy flying, he may end up there. Regardless I never met a Navy pilot that didn't like where they ended up, jets/props/helos it was all good in the end.

Remember, NFO is an option in the Navy, but the rate of NFO to pilot transition I believe not as great as CSO to pilot in the USAF.

EDIT: What was the reason the USAF didn't pick him up front for a pilot spot? Disregard (see my reply to your other post regarding this topic).

Has he looked at the ANG or USAF Reserves. They have local UPT boards that could get his foot in the door with flight training. Example: http://www.idaho.ang.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-131220-051.pdf

http://www.guardreservejobs.com/

Cheers

Collin

Edited by Collin
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Be careful Duty. Have your son walk over and talk to the NROTC folks at the school.

BL: There is no guaranteed flight slot in the Navy process (Marines yes...at least they had it when I went though NROTC). Needs of the Navy at the time dictates what community you go to (don't need to tell you that, you have been through the process). Getting something in writing from the Navy saying "here is your ticket to API/Pensacola to start flight school" isn't in the cards. He will take the aptitude tests like everyone else and join the pool of candidates. He should find out how many others in the graduating Navy ROTC class want a pilot spot as well, there are only so many slots. Also, the Navy has a lot of helos, so if he gets into Navy flying, he may end up there. Regardless I never met a Navy pilot that didn't like where they ended up, jets/props/helos it was all good in the end.

Remember, NFO is an option in the Navy, but the rate of NFO to pilot transition I believe not as great as CSO to pilot in the USAF.

Does he have the eyesight? What was the reason the USAF didn't pick him up front for a pilot spot?

Has he looked at the ANG or USAF Reserves. They have local UPT boards that could get his foot in the door with flight training.

Cheers

Collin

His eyesight and pilot aptitude scores were all fine. Here is a clip from the other tread I started on this which explains what I think happened. We are trying to figure out what to do next, if anything.

"The basic cause of the non-select was his failure to participate regularly in ROTC military leadership roles/drill. He focused on getting a high GPA as an engineering major instead. He somehow got the impression that was more important. This may have been partially my fault and the Naval academy interviewers fault way back when. Before AF ROTC, he was a Congressional Naval Academy nominee. Both of us emphasized the importance of an engineering major as a break out factor for pilot select for the Navy. The Air Force apparently does not emphasize it as heavily. Another issue is the AF ROTC cadre knew my son was in it for pilot training, and during his semester reviews told him he was on the right track...everything was good, etc. Then the time comes and the (new, non tech major) CO calls him in and tells him he will not endorse for a rated spot because of lack of demonstrated military leadership.......he did not participate in enough drills.....that it was not all about being smart and bookwork....that he could not count on studying a lot and getting really high grades to carry the day...whole person concept, etc. When asked why all this time the cadre had told him everything looked good, no concerns or issues, the CO says, "Well that is true with regards to getting your commission. Not specifically for getting a rated pilot slot." My son was blindsided and shocked. The thing is, he is not a "bookworm" type. He is also a gifted athlete, was the QB of his football team, looks the part, hard worker, etc, and would have found a way to do some extra drills if he had realized the importance of it.

However, another part of this is me/him not doing due diligence. In addition to the published info I am sure he was handed when he walked in the door of ROTC, it only takes about a minute to search online and read about the criteria used for rated select for pilot and how it is weighted. If you read that, and choose to forget it, and leave it on the table, you have yourself to blame. If I had researched it, I would have asked him about his participation and urged him to do it. If he had remembered, or it was made clear to him by his cadre during any semester review that he was deficient in a required area, things would be different now."

The good news is, if he sticks with his current assignment he gets space, which is hard to get. He is the first cadet in three years of ROTC at UCF to get it.

Edited by DutyCat
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Has he "contracted" with the USAF ROTC program? It might be a problem unless the Navy ROTC is willing to pay back the contract or work a deal to get him out of it. In addition to all of this, the ROTC CO's actions might not be appreciated by the University they are tied to. Contact Student Affairs on campus and let them know how he has busted his balls to keep a GPA, and now the CO is telling him that this is a irrelevant. Push it up to the Presidents Office if you have to. But keep recruiters out of the picture. Go talk to the Navy ROTC CO.

I work on a University campus and I use to piss these jerks off all the time. They would bark orders at me and I would laugh at them! Sometimes they let their ego get ahead of them. Oh, and maybe a letter to your State Senator might convince the USAF CO things are not as he sees them.

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Has he "contracted" with the USAF ROTC program? It might be a problem unless the Navy ROTC is willing to pay back the contract or work a deal to get him out of it. In addition to all of this, the ROTC CO's actions might not be appreciated by the University they are tied to. Contact Student Affairs on campus and let them know how he has busted his balls to keep a GPA, and now the CO is telling him that this is a irrelevant. Push it up to the Presidents Office if you have to. But keep recruiters out of the picture. Go talk to the Navy ROTC CO.

I work on a University campus and I use to piss these jerks off all the time. They would bark orders at me and I would laugh at them! Sometimes they let their ego get ahead of them. Oh, and maybe a letter to your State Senator might convince the USAF CO things are not as he sees them.

Nowhere does the University fall in the Chain of Command nor in the larger picture of slotting cadets. When falling on your own sword you better make sure your cause is worth it.

I tried flying in the Air Force and at the start of ROTC they were very clear what it took. On a 100 point scale, grades made up around 10-15% of your chances of to get a slot. In the military, one's ability to assimilate in the culture they're in will determine one's long term success.

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His eyesight and pilot aptitude scores were all fine. Here is a clip from the other tread I started on this which explains what I think happened. We are trying to figure out what to do next, if anything.

"The basic cause of the non-select was his failure to participate regularly in ROTC military leadership roles/drill. He focused on getting a high GPA as an engineering major instead. He somehow got the impression that was more important. This may have been partially my fault and the Naval academy interviewers fault way back when. Before AF ROTC, he was a Congressional Naval Academy nominee. Both of us emphasized the importance of an engineering major as a break out factor for pilot select for the Navy. The Air Force apparently does not emphasize it as heavily. Another issue is the AF ROTC cadre knew my son was in it for pilot training, and during his semester reviews told him he was on the right track...everything was good, etc. Then the time comes and the (new, non tech major) CO calls him in and tells him he will not endorse for a rated spot because of lack of demonstrated military leadership.......he did not participate in enough drills.....that it was not all about being smart and bookwork....that he could not count on studying a lot and getting really high grades to carry the day...whole person concept, etc. When asked why all this time the cadre had told him everything looked good, no concerns or issues, the CO says, "Well that is true with regards to getting your commission. Not specifically for getting a rated pilot slot." My son was blindsided and shocked. The thing is, he is not a "bookworm" type. He is also a gifted athlete, was the QB of his football team, looks the part, hard worker, etc, and would have found a way to do some extra drills if he had realized the importance of it.

However, another part of this is me/him not doing due diligence. In addition to the published info I am sure he was handed when he walked in the door of ROTC, it only takes about a minute to search online and read about the criteria used for rated select for pilot and how it is weighted. If you read that, and choose to forget it, and leave it on the table, you have yourself to blame. If I had researched it, I would have asked him about his participation and urged him to do it. If he had remembered, or it was made clear to him by his cadre during any semester review that he was deficient in a required area, things would be different now."

The good news is, if he sticks with his current assignment he gets space, which is hard to get. He is the first cadet in three years of ROTC at UCF to get it.

I was an army officer who was commissioned through ROTC with a four year scholarship. Once you start your junior year, you are committed fully, meaning if you don't fulfill your obligation to go on active duty or the reserves with the service you got the scholarship from you owe the money they paid in tuition. Bottom line the Air Force owns him and has final say on whether he can get out of his commitment.

I find it very strange that your son was ignorant of the fact that if he wanted a pilot slot, he better be one of the top cadets in his program. Not participating and maximizing his military science courses and drill is a sure way to not get the assignment you want.

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Well, he isn't going to give up what he has unless he has a flight training slot in writing from the Navy. If he stays USAF, he has decided that he would rather be a space operations officer than a CSO. We are here in Florida and both my sons and I are big into NASA, Apollo, STS, and the SLS/Orion program. If he stays the path, he goes to Vandenberg AFB in CA for his first tour, but would end up at CCAFB/KSC at some point, so that would be good for family.

He is under contract to the USAF, so the Navy may not even talk to him. I will find out next week.

BTW, I never had a recruiter lie to me that I am aware of.

Well, mine did ( late 1980's)- "free medical care for life if you retire w/ >20". I know he had sipped the same kool-aid, many of us fell for that one

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