Mig-21 Russian sand = Arab sand color Question

[Brad-M]

Gents,

I am wondering what color of sand paint the Mig-21s from Russia were when they arrived to airforces like Syria and Eqypt? Was the sand color a brown sand or was it a pale yellow sand color?

TIA

Brad

[Airfixer]

Hi Brad,

It's really hard to set oneself at a specific/definitive colour.

In general, photo quality is too poor to draw any significant conclusions about the actual clours used. The only types of MiG-21s to be known of having been delivered in factory-applied camouflage are the Gorky-built EAF/SyAF MiG-21MF, R and very early SyAF MiG-21bis. Two-tone "Gorky scheme" (beginning from 1970)

Later SyAF were delivered in a tactical three-tone colour scheme, but once ore, too much variation mainly due to poor photo quality.

EAF MiG-21FL/PFM/1969-delivered MF -> locally applied camouflage ("Tiger stripes", "Nile-scheme")

EAF MiG-21PFM were delivered directly from Soviet AF units and locally repainted, allegedly using automotive paints.

Personally, I'd go with a shade similar to Tamiya XF-57 "Buff" or XF-55 "Deck Tan". A mix of XF-59 "Desert Yellow" with XF-55/XF-57 will also work.

Or any other paint/manufacturer corresponding to these shades. Neither too yellowish nor too brownish.

HTH

Erik

Edited March 17, 2015 by Airfixer

[Brad-M]

Thanks Erik!

Brad

[Ryan Hothersall]

Humbrol 103 cream looks close for me.

[Brad-M]

Thanks for the reply Ryan. I'm not an enamel user, but appreciate the reply just the same.

Cheers

Brad

[TomCooper]

This story is 'relatively simple' in some regards, and 'particularly complex' in other. Essence of the question is what variant and from what period of time do you want to build (and paint).

Since Brad asked about MiG-21s that were painted already pre-delivery, he's talking about MiG-21Ms and MiG-21MFs delivered from 1970 and 1971, respectively. In such case, there is 'only one' solution: colours used on these aircraft (and early MiG-21bis', in the case of Iraq and Syria) were based on British Standard 381C. This was verified by few gentlemen who run about a few specimen of the aircraft in question, together with several colour charts in their hands.

Specifically:

- 'sand' colour in question was BS381C/388 'beige';

- 'green' was... well, depending on availability of colours, either BS381C/220 'olive green', or BS381C/227 deep Brunswick green (latter was used on three small batches of MiG-21MFs delivered to Syria during the October 1973 War, for example, i.e. those with serials in range 15xx)

- 'light blue' (also 'Russian light blue') on bottom surfaces was BS381C/697 'light admiralty grey'.

For details on BS381C (including extensive colour charts), see for example here.

That said... BS381C/388 was used a lot - though not exclusively - by Egyptians for a number of other of their genuine camo patterns, primarily for 'Nile Valley' and 'Stripes' (I wouldn't call that 'Tiger Stripes': such a camo was applied on Indian AF MiG-21FLs around the same time) applied on MiG-21MFs and different other variants (though not on MiG-17Fs).

For 'stripes':

- 'olive drab' BS381C/298 (with 697 light admiralty grey on bottom surfaces);

For 'Nile Valley':

- 'black green' (don't know the BS381C match) and BS381C/283 grey green (with either BS381C/697 or with BS381C/627 medium grey on bottom surfaces).

For a number of examples of use of such colour references on models, plus additional descriptions of various camo patterns, please see various threads (primarily those related to Egyptian MiG-21) of the MiG-21 Group Build at British Modeller Forum, from last year. This one is a particularly good example, with project resulting in an absolutely authentic MiG-21MF from mid-1970s (though from 'after the October 1973 War' too).

Edited March 18, 2015 by TomCooper

[TomCooper]

Hi Brad,

It's really hard to set oneself at a specific/definitive colour.

In general, photo quality is too poor to draw any significant conclusions about the actual clours used. The only types of MiG-21s to be known of having been delivered in factory-applied camouflage are the Gorky-built EAF/SyAF MiG-21MF, R and very early SyAF MiG-21bis.

More specifically:

- First batches of MiG-21Ms and MiG-21R/RFs (RFs for Egypt only) delivered to Egypt, Iraq and Algeria starting in 1970 arrived in 'natural metal overall'.

- Starting with MiG-21MFs (deliveries began in 1971, and then went to Egypt, Iraq and Syria), they were camouflaged in that standard camo pattern I've described above. Note: most of MiG-21MFs delivered prior to October 1973 have had the fuselage in front of afterburner can left in natural metal overall too.

- Subsequent batches of MiG-21MFs (those delivered during or immediately after the October 1973 War) have had the same camo, though 'stretched' over the rear fuselage in front of afterburner cans. While Egypt hasn't got any MiG-21s during or after that war, MFs delivered to Syria were camouflaged with BS381C/227 deep Brunswick green (over beige and light admiralty grey).

- Early batches of MiG-21bis (as delivered to Iraq and Syria) were camouflaged in same fashion, but those delivered to these two countries in the early 1980s saw the use of slightly darker camo colours (still have to 'encrypt' them, though).

Later SyAF were delivered in a tactical three-tone colour scheme, but once ore, too much variation mainly due to poor photo quality.

Sorry, Syria never got MiG-21bis painted that way. That was a disinformation based on a poor photo of a (South) Yemeni MiG-21bis.

Regarding earlier variants:

EAF MiG-21FL/PFM/1969-delivered MF

No MiG-21MFs were delivered before 1971 (production started only in that year).

The MiG-21FL seen on that photo (serial 6154) was painted in BS381C/388 beige, BS381C/437 olive drab on top surfaces, and BS381C/697 light admiralty grey on bottom surfaces.

The MiG-21PF-S seen on the next photo (serial 8070) was camouflaged in a colour called 'yellow sand' (couldn't identify that one in BS381C chart), or beige, with 'black green' (don't know the BS381C match) and BS381C/283 grey green on top surfaces, and BS381C/697 light admiralty grey on bottom surfaces.

EAF MiG-21PFM were delivered directly from Soviet AF units and locally repainted, allegedly using automotive paints.

That was actually the case with 'first generation' of camouflaged Egyptian MiG-21s. Namely: MiG-21F-13s, MiG-21FLs and MiG-21PFMs delivered before the June 1967 War with Israel, and ex-V-VS MiG-21PF-S' (like 8075 mentioned above) delivered immediately afterwards. On such aircraft, camo colours were applied without any varnish too, which resulted in their heavy wear and tear.

In comparison: when they received a batch of ex-V-VS MiG-21PFMs and then an even smaller batch of MiG-21PF-S', in July 1967, Syrians have applied varnish and then the same colours that they were using on their MiG-17Fs from that period too (namely orange-sand and olive drab).

Regarding paint manufacturers... there should be some shop in Finland - sorry, can't recall it's name right now - delivering precisely the colours you might need here. Gents using them all expressed themselves very positively (about speed of delivery, and quality of colours too).

[Brad-M]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the very detailed reply. Yes, I should have been more specific in what I wanted,(Mig-21F-13 and MF) but you have provided more than enough info here for me, and I appreciate that.

Best Regards

Brad

[fulcrum1]

Thanks Tom, that was insightful.

[TomCooper]

My pleasure gents. Just paint and mark then properly (it's often breaking my heart to see a wonderful, yet wrongly painted or marked model).

[JBr]

Actually as MiG-21F-13 is also in question, it should be noted that the Czechoslovak built aircraft of this type delivered after 1967 war also had the camouflage applied in factory. They were painted in combination of beige and khaki over blue undersides. The paints used on those were from the ČSN S2013 line.

[TomCooper]

Actually as MiG-21F-13 is also in question, it should be noted that the Czechoslovak built aircraft of this type delivered after 1967 war also had the camouflage applied in factory. They were painted in combination of beige and khaki over blue undersides. The paints used on those were from the ČSN S2013 line.

That's correct.

'But' - and this is a very important 'but' here: these 30 Czechoslovak-built MiG-21F-13s were delivered to Egypt (between March and December 1969), NOT to Syria as usually claimed. They entered service with No. 25 and No.26 Squadrons, which claimed quite a bunch of kills in 1970 and 1973.

Those with 'deeper' interest in the topic of Czechoslovak-built MiG-21F-13s in service in Egypt, please see Arab MiGs, Volume 4. on p235, there is a scan of the original painting instruction. This is identifying colours in question as:

- beige S2013/6370

- khaki S2013/5450

- blue S2013/4265

The same volume contains all of their c/ns too. Sadly, although we've got nearly all of their UARAF/EAF serials (UARAF until early 1972, subsequently EAF), we've got no documentation that would match these with their c/ns.

[TomCooper]

A 'BTW' here: coming into being of an authentic reconstructon of one of about a dozen of Algerian MiG-21MFs deployed to Egypt during the October 1973 War with Israel can be seen here.

These aircraft arrived in Egypt, uncamouflaged, between 12 and 14 October. A 'Nile Valley' camo pattern in beige, grey-green, black-green, and light admiralty grey was applied (without varnish) by Egyptian AF technicians at Cairo West.

Edited March 21, 2015 by TomCooper

[Jennings]

That's great info Tom, thanks for posting. I wish I'd had that when I did the Afterburner decals four years ago! But at least it doesn't directly impact the decals - just the way you paint your model.

Thanks again!

J

[Brad-M]

One more question, this time I am looking for info regarding the gun gas deflector; yes or no on the Syrian/Egyptian Mig-21 MFs? Some pics are so grainy and blurry it's tough to call.

Thanks for any help

Brad

[Jennings]

Are you talking about the little 'blade' below the aux intakes? If so, I believe those were fitted to all MFs

[TomCooper]

If he's talking about those 'small plates at lower fuselage, on either side of gun muzzles'... not necessarily.

Most of MiG-21Ms delivered to Egypt and Syria haven't got any, and continued serving well into the 1990s without any.

Ex-East German MiG-21Ms delivered to Syria in October 1973 haven't got any either. One of them (1810) was last photographed at Tabqa AB last year, still having none.

[Jennings]

That's true of MiG-21Ms, but wasn't that a standard fit on MFs?

[tobiK]

Uh, that's really detailed information! Even I m not a MIG geek, that teased my interest in that aircraft and therefore also for a middle east version. Thanks to Eduard for making such a nice kit!

[TomCooper]

That's true of MiG-21Ms, but wasn't that a standard fit on MFs?

Yes, it was.

That said, majority of photos showing - for example - Egyptian MiG-21 'MFs' in all sorts of 'colourful' camouflage patterns, are actually showing MiG-21Ms. In reality, Egypt has got more Ms than MiG-21MFs.

BTW, the reason I'm explaining this all is not to brag, or 'impress' anybody with anything. I simply want to help people paint and mark their modells authentically; after all, that was the reason I started researching about 'obscure' air forces, including such like Egyptian, Iraqi, Iranian, Syrian etc. Sadly, a matter of fact is that there are tremendous volumes of completely wrong information about 'Arab MiGs' published again and again. Some of mistakes are insistently repeated since nearly 40 years (classic example would be the 'Syrian MiG-17PF' that can be seen on the cover of this book: Syria never operated any MiG-17PFs, serial 452 is that from an Iraqi MiG-17F, and colours used on that artwork are from within realms of science fiction).

Since nobody serious would paint an USAF F-16C in camouflage pattern for USN's A-7Ds, and mark it with decals for Royal Air Force Hercules C.Mk.1s - and then claim it for 'authentic'...well, why doing such mistakes with aircraft flown by specific 'Arab' (or Iranian) air forces? Nearly all of necessary data is now available, I'm around. So, if you need help, let me know: I'm really happy to help (as far as I can).

[Jennings]

BTW, the reason I'm explaining this all is not to brag, or 'impress' anybody with anything. I simply want to help people paint and mark their modells authentically; after all, that was the reason I started researching about 'obscure' air forces, including such like Egyptian, Iraqi, Iranian, Syrian etc. Sadly, a matter of fact is that there are tremendous volumes of completely wrong information about 'Arab MiGs' published again and again. Some of mistakes are insistently repeated since nearly 40 years (classic example would be the 'Syrian MiG-17PF' that can be seen on the cover of this book: Syria never operated any MiG-17PFs, serial 452 is that from an Iraqi MiG-17F, and colours used on that artwork are from within realms of science fiction).

And I for one greatly appreciate your efforts! That has to have been a really tough nut to crack, and I applaud you for it!

Since nobody serious would paint an USAF F-16C in camouflage pattern for USN's A-7Ds

Probably not, since the USN didn't fly A-7Ds :) (sorry, couldn't resist!)

[TomCooper]

Probably not, since the USN didn't fly A-7Ds :)/>/> (sorry, couldn't resist!)

Np...was just an example for absurdities that are often handled as 'serious reference' (and 'D' was a typo: wanted to put an 'E' there). Edited March 22, 2015 by TomCooper

[Jennings]

Where on earth did you uncover all this great info on Arab MiGs anyway Tom?? I'm still amazed!

[Brad-M]

Yes, I am talking about the small gun gas deflector plates just below the airflow relief doors on both sides of the fuselage.

Brad

If he's talking about those 'small plates at lower fuselage, on either side of gun muzzles'... not necessarily.

Most of MiG-21Ms delivered to Egypt and Syria haven't got any, and continued serving well into the 1990s without any.

Ex-East German MiG-21Ms delivered to Syria in October 1973 haven't got any either. One of them (1810) was last photographed at Tabqa AB last year, still having none.

[ya-gabor]

Yes, I am talking about the small gun gas deflector plates just below the airflow relief doors on both sides of the fuselage.

Brad

Hi Brad,

Soory they are not gun gas deflectors plates. They are FOD protection of the relief doors agains any objects getting sucked into the air duct. They have nothing to do with the gun! The early M and MF's did not have them and it was only a later "Buletin" issued by the Russians that called for the instalation on newly made and retrofit on already in service aircraft. This Russian document apart from this FOD plate also calls for around 70 other changes, some inside, some outside on the airframe. Certainly this is the most visible one.

Best regards

Gabor