German Airbus Crash

[Thommo]

Another sad aviation event.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/24/us-france-crash-airbus-lufthansa-idUSKBN0MK0ZP20150324

Have heard (on another forum via an air traffic controller in the ME) there was a military exercise in the area and at about the same time a fighter jet reported an emergency.

[Don]

Thoughts and prayers to all those affected by this tragedy.

.

Don

[vince14]

Another sad aviation event.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/24/us-france-crash-airbus-lufthansa-idUSKBN0MK0ZP20150324

Have heard (on another forum via an air traffic controller in the ME) there was a military exercise in the area and at about the same time a fighter jet reported an emergency.

The reported emergency message was actually a DETRESFA sent out by ATC to aircraft in the area, in essence asking them to report on any sign of 4U 9525.

[Thommo]

Might be onto something here.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/03/26/10/51/one-pilot-was-locked-out-of-cockpit-before-crash-investigators-find

[streetstream]

Indeed, it looks like suicide by (co-)pilot. What a tragedy. If it is so, why take so many with you?

[Edgar]

Indeed, it looks like suicide by (co-)pilot.

Yes, of course it has to be something so dramatic; couldn't possibly be that something rendered the other pilot unconscious, could it? I know this is a fairly radical idea, but how about waiting for something official to come out? We've already had a Mayday, which wasn't.

[streetstream]

Yes, of course it has to be something so dramatic; couldn't possibly be that something rendered the other pilot unconscious, could it? I know this is a fairly radical idea, but how about waiting for something official to come out? We've already had a Mayday, which wasn't.

Please note that i stated 'it looks like...'. And also 'if it is so,..'.

So clearly, i'm not stating this as a fact, just as a possibility.

[Edgar]

Along with heart attack, stroke, seizure, all of which can afflict someone in a stressful job, so why not give them consideration, as well?

[cvrle]

It's something I must admit I noticed in the coverage of the event between US and Euro news outlets. The Euro ones tend to not speculate, and when they do, they very strongly indicate that it's all speculation, while US media tends to have bombastic titles and loads of speculation...

I guess that's the dreaded news cycle everyone's talking about...

Back to the topic, until there's official word on what happened, I agree with Edgar and let's not pronounce it until the experts have called it.

[streetstream]

Along with heart attack, stroke, seizure, all of which can afflict someone in a stressful job, so why not give them consideration, as well?

Because a plane doesn't useally disable its autopilot when the pilot has a stroke or a heart attack. Also, if it is freefalling, it usually doesn't keep a nice consistent rate of descend and speed.

And again, it is just a theory, but based on what we are told (not what we know), it is in my eyes the most believable theory (again, not fact).

[T0M4ever]

French prosecutors:

"We heard the captain ask the co-pilot to take control, then we hear the noise of a seat that goes back and a door open, we can assume he went to relieve himself.

The co-pilot was alone. It is at this moment that the co-pilot manipulates the buttons of flight monitoring system to action the descent of the plane.

The action of this altitude can only be deliberate. We hear the captain then speaks via an interphone to speak to the co-pilot, no response of co-pilot, he taps on door, no response from the co-pilot, all we can hear is the sound of breathing, until impact suggesting the co-pilot was alive until impact.

Air traffic control tried to get through via 7700 but couldn't get through. Air traffic control even tried to contact other planes to try and contact the plane, but no response.

Alarms sounded to signal to crew the proximity of the ground, then we hear banging of someone trying to break down the door

The pull up alarms to pull the plane up went off.

Just before the final impact one can heard what appears to be the first impact of the plane on a mountain top.

There was no message of distress type or mayday recevied by air traffic control, and no response to all the air traffic controllers.

The interpretation is 48 hours after the crash, I take precautions, but for us investigating...the most plausible and realistic is that the co-pilot by a deliberate decision refused to open the cabin door to the captain and actioned the button ordering the loss of altitude

There was a deliberate desire to destroy this plane. Apparently the co-pilot was breathing normally. He said absolutely nothing after the captain left the cabin.

I am saying that given the elements I have today, I can only say that he deliberately allowed the loss of altitude. It's not a loss that is totally abnormal, 1,000ft per minute; but he had no reason to do it, or not to allow captain in to cabin, he had no reason not to explain to air traffic control why he was losing altitude

The theory that he had a health attack? Apparently he was breathing normally, so this is not someone having a heart attack, for example.

I think that the victims only reaslied what was happening at the last minute and I think that he voluntarily refused to open the door and turned the button to bring the plane down.

Co-pilot is of German nationality, I don't know his ethnic origin. He is not listed as a terrorist if this is what you mean.

Since September 2001, the US imposed a double security system. There is a security code, either a camera to recognise the person outside, then you need to action the opening of the door. This plane was from 1991

Once you go out of the door, it locks, it's an auto-locking system. The co-pilot gave brief, laconic responses to the captain, it wasn't a real dialogue.

When the captain talked about the check list for landing, the responses of the co-pilot were short, it wasn't a real exchange."

[11bee]

Along with heart attack, stroke, seizure, all of which can afflict someone in a stressful job, so why not give them consideration, as well?

The one thing that discounts this is that it appears that after the pilot left the cockpit, the door was manually locked (which prevented access via keypad). It doesn't sound like this was SOP.

If the remaining pilot simply keeled over in his/her seat, the other pilot could have still easily accessed the cockpit via the keypad.

Again, mostly speculation at this point, the facts that are being released are quite disturbing.

[11bee]

Seems to be no more speculation. It appears it was a deliberate act by the co-pilot.

One thing I found interesting is that in the US, a single pilot is not permitted to be alone in the cockpit. If it's a two-person crew and one pilot has to leave, a flight attendant is required to take that person's place in the cockpit.

[Scooby]

No different than MH370, deliberate turns, ACARS turned off, a path was flown where radar coverage would not see the aircraft, the co-pilot tried to make a cell phone call (he was likely in the back), the aircraft was flown a long distance to hide the evidence so no blame goes back to the family.

Two known suicides have taken down two aircraft, looks like this is a third and I would be my house MH370 is a fourth.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Scooby

[Scooby]

The Germanwings co-pilot was also removed from flying duties to battle depression earlier in his career.

[Don]

If this was indeed a deliberate act by the copilot (as it seems it likely was as 11bee has pointed out) then its very sad that one persons desire/determination to self terminate caused the lives of so many other innocents who were not given a choice. Now not only the victims families have to come to terms with the loss of their loved one(s) but the copilots family is forced to live with what their family member did.

Again, thoughts and prayers to those affected by this tragedy.

.

Don

[11bee]

If this was indeed a deliberate act by the copilot (as it seems it likely was as 11bee has pointed out) then its very sad that one persons desire/determination to self terminate caused the lives of so many other innocents who were not given a choice. Now not only the victims families have to come to terms with the loss of their loved one(s) but the copilots family is forced to live with what their family member did.

Again, thoughts and prayers to those affected by this tragedy.

.

Don

+1 Just a very sad, pointless tragedy.

[Thommo]

It seems at one stage the French did send up a Mirage jet to try and see what was happening after ATC could get no response from the plane (while it was still flying I assume).

If this was a pilot suicide as seems likely now, why inflict your pain on so many other families. Selfish.

[Alan in Yorktown]

It's something I must admit I noticed in the coverage of the event between US and Euro news outlets. The Euro ones tend to not speculate, and when they do, they very strongly indicate that it's all speculation, while US media tends to have bombastic titles and loads of speculation...

I guess that's the dreaded news cycle everyone's talking about...

Back to the topic, until there's official word on what happened, I agree with Edgar and let's not pronounce it until the experts have called it.

Speaking of differences in news outlets - when I was stationed in Japan in 90s I was at Yokoda TDY for some reason. While there, a civilian airliner crashed on landing (I think it was at Fukuoka) - it was obvious there would be no survivors. Of course, TV coverage was constant. And about 45 min after the crash, the stations started scrolling words; I can't read Japanese, but I know enough to realize these were names - they were broadcasting names of those killed within an hour of the event.

Don't see that here, nor I suspect in Europe.

[Jennings]

Sounds like a very disturbed young man who apparently hid it well.

[Ol Crew Dog]

My thoughts and prayers go out to all that have lost loved ones, a tragic lose no matter what caused the outcome.

Just my thought? His Breathing was even and steady up until impact? Sounds more like he was unconscious as your breathing would increase and become more labored as impact was eminent, just would be a normal reaction to the scene unfolding? not saying it wasn't suicide but could the Co-Pilot be unconscious for the whole descent?

Edited March 27, 2015 by Ol Crew Dog

[Scooby]

My thoughts and prayers go out to all that have lost loved ones, a tragic lose no matter what caused the outcome.

Just my thought? His Breathing was even and steady up until impact? Sounds more like he was unconscious as your breathing would increase and become more labored as impact was eminent, just would be a normal reaction to the scene unfolding? not saying it wasn't suicide but could the Co-Pilot be unconscious for the whole descent?

No, he was conscious, he had to hold the door lock bypass switch to prevent the door from opening. It is spring loaded away from the bypass position.

A normal person would Be breathing harder, he wasn't normal. He was ready for this. It was murder, not suicide.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Scooby

[Thommo]

New aviation rules here in Oz now, must have 2 in cockpit at all times. I mostly fly domestically on Qantas Dash 8's, and they always have 2 in the cockpit, can't ever remember seeing either pilot leave while in flight (very short flights though - 1-2hrs only).

Interesting interview with a young ex-pilot here on telly last night who gave up his license and ambitions to fly commercial due to his depression/anxiety problems. He claims pilots here have a mental health assessment at the beginning of their careers, but then could fly for 30yrs without another.