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F-84G Canopy Circle is ???


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Wow! Had to sign off early yesterday and look what happened.

Actually part of "early" was to go to the "Air Zoo" to check archives. Unfortunately we have very little on F-84s other than 84F and none is tech pubs except one pilot checklist. It doesn't mention this.

I did find a cutaway in RAF Flying Review (July 61, Vol 16, #11, assume intl edition) that IDs it as "Service and Ventilation Port". I found their cutaways to be reliable though this is not definitive and wouldn't hold up in court--especially be definition of "service" and "ventilation", which should be considered in the posts above.

"Service": service is not maintenance with the distinction being that a servicing port may not allow maintenance (airliners have lots of servicing ports that allow no more maintenance than a wing skin).

"Ventilation": if it can be opened for servicing than it can be opened for ventilation. But does "ventilation" include "pressure relief".

Note that "pressure relief" does not mean "blowout" so the stab should be safe.

Manuals on line at ESSCO: note that most are F-84F, including the IPB. Pilot's manuals usually don't describe this kind of item, but maybe as part of a walkaround. The Erection & Maintenance and the Structural Repair might but not likely for either one based on normal content of such manuals. What we need is the "G" IPB.

Those photos above are great!

Note how the inner "circle" stands out from the inner.

Also, the antenna, not crack, is on both sides, symmetrical.

Anyone notice how hard it has gotten to research '50s jets? This is a great thread but like some are saying--what is the source. We have to be careful about assumptions and careful about whether one thing must lead to another so I hope we keep this thread going til we get the definitive answer.

BTW, the "potential" member joined and is reading this thread.

Please welcome Ron!

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Paul,

That has been the trend of the thread but so far we have no definitive, documentary proof of any of this, including the "framing"/reinforcement. What we see in the photos is "what we've got" that is objective. Articles describe it as attached reinforcement but don't site sources.

Lots of good reasoning found here and the "access" idea seems good, based on precedent of experience on other types. So far no one has joined in who has experience on the reinforced canopy so we not only don't have documentation but neither experience.

I've been thinking about "so what". Well, as modelers, part of the interest and fun is knowing.

It also lets us know whether a molding is accurate, whether we should modify with plastic or tape or something else, whether we should replace a part, or whether to get a different kit.

But for historical purposes who will care in 100 years, let alone 60 years after they served and info is scarce.

I think we should pin these arcane, esoteric, rivet-counter things down because some day someone will be telling stories about "way back when" and I'd like to know they have a chance to get it right from reliable primary documentation and the stories of those "who were there".

Now, where is that IPB I don't have?

BTW, especially looking at the E photo (and more I just found), the circle is "structural" to the canopy, not just on there---the inner circle appears to be removable.

Rich

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While we're on the subject of F-84's, a slight diversion - Does anyone have photos of any 430th FBS F-84's? This is my wife's father at K2 in a 430thFBS F-84 in probably summer of 1952. This is the only photo of him that has surfaced of his time in Korea. I'm hoping that someone may have more...

037_zps0b3d1624.jpg

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I believe it is not a "birdcage" framing, but reinforcements that we're looking at. Each section between those white "frames" is not a separate plexi panel. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hey Paul,

Most definitely reinforcing straps. Here's a link to quite a good photo showing the straps and that they're even on the inside of the canopy as well.

F-84E canopy photo

Cheers,

John

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I'll do ya better than a manual. How about a F-84 crew chief that was in the Korean War? I just got off the phone with Douglas Danford. He lives just south of me. I asked him point blank. What was the hole in the side of the canopy used for. He said," It was an access panel for the equipment there". There was no blow out panel. The material they used to strengthen the canopy is like fiberglass, but not exactly. We talked for about an hour. Those guys like to talk. So I have no documentation to back it up. Will this do Jennings. I can give you the phone number to the guy if you like. I am including a link to a news article that was written about Mr. Danford.

Steve

http://donmooreswartales.com/2014/11/10/doug-danforth/

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That's good enough for me on the "access" part---I started this thread but we shouldn't stop here.

Would Mr. Danford like to join ARC?

Lots of F-84 threads going at the moment and this is the first "I was there" comment we've gotten.

F-84s were so common they were in the "there all over, everyone knows about them" category and look at now. By comparison consider any plane/helicopter that is ending service or recently has (last two years), I easy it is to find primary sources and people with experience, and answers to our modeling questions.

Thanks Steve for asking him! Since you're in Florida I'll have to come down and visit him (still chilly in Michigan).

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Here's a thought - could it be both an access panel and a pressure release mechanism at the same time? Maybe the designers needed to install the pressure release valve, and decided to position it in such a way as to make access to the area behind the seat easier.

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Here's a thought - could it be both an access panel and a pressure release mechanism at the same time? Maybe the designers needed to install the pressure release valve, and decided to position it in such a way as to make access to the area behind the seat easier.

Pressure relief valves are actually complicated items that work on pressure differential and there's nothing I see in the photos that indicate that the access panel is anything but an access panel. There is no device to let it open and close to relieve pressure in any photo I've seen.

Cheers,

John

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Here's a thought - could it be both an access panel and a pressure release mechanism at the same time? Maybe the designers needed to install the pressure release valve, and decided to position it in such a way as to make access to the area behind the seat easier.

Did you read my answer to this question?

Steve

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Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the outstanding responses to the question that Rich asked on my behalf. And thanks for pointing me in this direction, Rich. Some great information has been posted here, and based on the information I have seen, I concur that the circular item is an access panel for the back of the cockpit. I just saw the multi view drawings of the F-84G from the Detail and Scale publication on the F-84 and the circular ring is referred to as a "canopy deck access panel". It seems pretty definitive to me that the final answer is a circular access panel.

Thanks everyone. I look forward to participating in many forums in the future.

Ron

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This from Mr.Thunderjet hisself, Bruce Craig:

(1) The plug was for equipment access which maintenance crews repeatedly requested

of production because the canopy had to be disassembled in order to work on the RDF

and canopy open/close mechanism, etc.

(2) The canopy was never a "birdcage"; all Thunderjet canopies were blown plexi.

(3) The "framing" (i.e., bracing) was 1" and 2" wide fiberglass strips glued to the canopy

to prevent the canopy from extracting from the frame. Production commenced to add

them sometime during the "D" and "E" blocks, all "G" blocks had them added at production.

In general, the bracing was added "in the field" to all in-service C, D and E Thunderjets.

Reference photos are in order if modeling any E, or XP to D (those versions would require

some (D) to serious (XP to C) kitbashing) and E. All G had them. I am not aware of any XP

to B that had them. A few C did have them added, the C at March Field Museum, Riverside

California is an example that has them.

(4) The bracing was a "pale pearl" color when new, i.e., the color of fiberglass weave or mat.

The texture of the tape tended to collect grime and would yellow with age, thus could

appear slightly gray or dirty pale yellow with age. I don't paint the braces, rather I airbrush

the color I want onto a white decal sheet and cut strips as needed from the sheet. Note

that white decal sheets are used because the base film is thicker than clear decal sheet

so better represents the thickness "in-scale" of the tapes. The decals strips are placed in

the order shown on this photo.

B

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You mean I was right?! Dayummm! :jaw-dropping:/>/>/>/>

Which also means Jennings :sunrevolves:/> was wrong! Gracious of him to come back to the thread and admit as much.

Ciao,

John

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What's your source for that? What would you need to access, and how could you possibly get your arm far enough in there to access anything? How would you do anything with one arm? It's a blow-out plug.

:D, Jennings, there are lots of jobs that have to be done on aircraft where you can only use one arm or hand because of the restricted access. Some jobs on the Mirage were done one handed and purely by feel as you couldn't see what you were doing for the reasons I've just mentioned. Adjusting fuel boost pump flow for us elecos is just one that comes to mind off the top of my head. Changing the main or 46A inverters was another. Now that one was a doozy, even worse than adjusting the pumps. Not only could you not see what you were doing but you were kind of lying upside down on the seat with your legs either side of the head box and couldn't see a thing while removing the cover panels. The F-84 maintenance guys had it easy working in this area; at least they could see what they were doing to accomplish what they had to when they were working in this area. Undoubtedly there would have been other areas of the aircraft where working one handed and blind was the order of the the day.

:cheers:,

Ross

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