Jump to content

Kitty Hawk F11F Tiger project reportedly declared dead


Recommended Posts

Given Fisher pulled the pin on a 32nd Tiger and they have released 6 beautiful 1950's Navy jets that have sold well is an indicator of the situation

Don't bet that all of Paul's big jets have sold well. They haven't. He's very gun shy about dong any more of the big expensive jet kits for the foreseeable future.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw a Tiger in blue angels livery static display at Valle airport when I visited US this year. It was the first time I heard of a F-11F. Not very familiar in Europe, not at all... Same goes for Cougars, Voodoos, etc..

But still I think it's cool to make kits of less known aircraft. If they sell or not, I don't really care, but I'm pretty sure the manufacturer does..

Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw a Tiger in blue angels livery static display at Valle airport when I visited US this year. It was the first time I heard of a F-11F. Not very familiar in Europe, not at all... Same goes for Cougars, Voodoos, etc..

But still I think it's cool to make kits of less known aircraft. If they sell or not, I don't really care, but I'm pretty sure the manufacturer does..

The original Navy designation for the Tiger was F11F-1. It stood for F, fighter, 11, the 11th fighter design by F, Grumman, -1, the first version made. Grumman's manufacture's letter designation was F before the common system was introduced in 1962. For example the original designation for the Phantom was F4H-1 with H being McDonnell's manufacture's letter identifier. Later when the DoD changed the designation system the Tiger became F-11A, the Phantom F-4A.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

I saw a Tiger in blue angels livery static display at Valle airport when I visited US this year. It was the first time I heard of a F-11F. Not very familiar in Europe, not at all... Same goes for Cougars, Voodoos, etc..

But still I think it's cool to make kits of less known aircraft. If they sell or not, I don't really care, but I'm pretty sure the manufacturer does..

The 'cool' factor is definitely something to consider, if you believe there is a correlation between customer interest and sales success. 'Cool' to a modeler often simply means something that you don't already have available to you - in other words, unique. But that cannot be the only factor, since 'cool' alone isn't enough to promise sales. Prior kit availability must be accounted for as well. If there was a prior kit that isn't a complete dog, then the market for a 'weird, unique or unusual' subject may already have reached saturation.

Also, I think manufacturers tend to overlook the importance of scale to the mature modeler (which is certainly Kitty Hawk's primary 'audience'.) Given the option between otherwise equal choices, I believe most will chose the one in their collection's predominant scale. And as the scale gets bigger (uh, smaller number), the number of potential customers decreases. Of course, there are relevant 'cultural' factors (such as available space for building & display) at work but I believe this will typically hold true across the board: if a long-time modeler has certain primary interests, they will focus on a scale and tend to 'collect' within that scale even for subjects outside their normal interest area. Offer something not already found (or reasonably served) within a certain scale then you can expect decent sales but only to the levels expected for the target modeling population. So, given the number of "1:32 scale builders" is much less than other scales, you can expect a proportionate sales potential.

This 'typical' behavior can be countered when the 'magnum opus' effect kicks in... such as with WingNut Wings kits. Sometimes the kit (or kits) is just so good that any modeler may become enthralled. I am a hard core 1:48 scale 'guy' but I own two WNW kits simply because they are so gorgeous a production - and they are well priced to boot. Great product, excellent customer service and affordable - too attractive to pass up! Granted, I probably will not go for any more of WNW kits (well, perhaps a Camel... if they ever do one) but that doesn't mean I don't still lust after them (unlike Pocher car kits - proof is in the building!)

Sometimes I wonder if the 'WNW Halo Effect' is the reason so many companies are jumping into the 1:32 (and larger!) pool. Trouble is when 1) they can't meet the price-point because of traditional distribution methods and 2) they can't provide the same production values. They may try, but no one is using Trumpeter (for example) kits/instructions as reference for other modeling projects...

Regards, Robert

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes I wonder if the 'WNW Halo Effect' is the reason so many companies are jumping into the 1:32 (and larger!) pool. Trouble is when 1) they can't meet the price-point because of traditional distribution methods and 2) they can't provide the same production values. They may try, but no one is using Trumpeter (for example) kits/instructions as reference for other modeling projects...

Regards, Robert

Interesting point. Not sure if WNW really has other outfits jumping into the pool though, since they are somewhat of a niche player, being self-restricted to just WW1 types. I'd still love to see what they could do with a 1/32 Mosquito or 1/35 Huey but I fear that will never happen.

Regardless, in my humble opinion, they have set the standard for large scale model kits both from a quality and value standpoint. Even the beloved Tamiya falls short when compared to these guys.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I concur, 11Bee - when I first looked into a WNW kit, I thought "If only all kits were this good!". Tamiya does a pretty close 'second' in the engineering and research department, though they have had a few gaffes over the years - but just a few! I suppose actually building a replica aircraft gives your research guys a leg up!

R/ Robert

Link to post
Share on other sites

I concur, 11Bee - when I first looked into a WNW kit, I thought "If only all kits were this good!". Tamiya does a pretty close 'second' in the engineering and research department, though they have had a few gaffes over the years - but just a few! I suppose actually building a replica aircraft gives your research guys a leg up!

R/ Robert

Tamiya is probably the only model company that can produce 1/32 high end extremely detailed kits besides WNW's because they have a very active RC side to their business as well as other hobby related side business models. Their model kits are more of a side line for them. Because of that Tamiya can play the long game for paying off their mold expenses. Add to that the popularity of their 1/48 kits who's molds are more or less paid off now. WNW's on the other hand has a very wealthy owner that can make the kits he does regardless of profit or loss because it is what he wants to do. If he makes a profit all the better. Judging by the enthusiasm of the buyers of his kits he recoups his investment most of the time. With companies like Kitty Hawk, Kinetic, etc. they rely solely on the sales of their kits so what they decide to kit is more critical to their survival.

Regardless of the sentiment of some that the Tiger is not a popular subject, I think if done in 1/48 it will certainly be as popular as a Panther, Cougar or Demon. I feel the naysayers are those who's particular interest lies elsewhere and want the model companies to focus on their particular field of interest. There is a fairly large interest in 50's USN aviation subjects. It is an area of modeling that until only recently has seen some activity by kit companies in 1/48. I think a well done F11F-1 Tiger would be a hit with modelers. Right now all the only option is the FM kit. It sells for collector prices on Ebay so I think it would be a slam dunk for Kitty Hawk.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the fact that there is more here than we are seeing. It is funny that we never hear from any insider from model companies on any of these forums and have to guess at motivation and other aspects of model companies. Why KH dropped the 1/32 Tiger is anyones' best guess but I am assuming it was an economic decision as with many companies. I agree that the kit would probably sell better in 1/48 scale since the 1/32 market is probably smaller worldwide...BUT again no statistics to back it up as there arent any real statistics on How many modelers worldwide what is the expected purchase numbers (retail) , what scale sell the most etc. etc,.... These are hard cold statistics that would most definitely drive business decisions but since there does NOT seem to be any database of these fact and numbers then companies are really guessing at production numbers and global sales which is basically gambling...playing slots give you more power in decision LOL.

I am seeing the same thing happening in the publishing industry since print is turning to online and many other formats so the decision to print a book and distribute it is becoming similiar to modeling in that it is a dwindling market and there are other venues competing. AT least in academic publishing(which I am involved -as an author) there seems to be more of print on demand schedule ...unfortunately you cant produce models like that yet??

Now back to the 1/32 F11F-1. I would like to see some one do one in 1/48 and I feel it would sell well due to the fact that there is support from other airframes in 1/48 that are related and may drive collection markets. Believe it or not model companies dont care if we build, collect, eat, or stick it up are collective asses as long as we buy the kit. So perhaps some statistics in this hobby collated and made available objectively to ALL companies would help everyone's cause so that sound business decisions could be made...But I dont think many model companies would want to share there sales numbers and distribution numbers to the public even though it would serve everyone in the future. But then a collective decision could be made with more informed choices rather than hearsay and internet chatter. I guess teh downside is that we would see companies only producing what they qualify as possible success=More and More 109, 190's, Spitfires and Mustanges etc... So I guess these numbers would be a double edges sword??

I honestly would love a 1/48 F11F-1 Tiger but that isnt going to get one in production

Steve ( the realist...but still loves to dream)

Steve,

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Tiger is a cool airplane, for sure. But in the grand scheme of the universe, it's really almost a side note (cool as it is). Yes, the Blue Angels flew it, and yes, it's cool. But there were only 200 built, and it was only in front line fleet service for five years.

Link to post
Share on other sites

J has a good point. Just to play devil's advocate, there are still many different sets of markings that can be done, the Blues are a huge selling point for those that want to complete their collection with a modern tooling, the FM kit shows that there is a market, and for those that want to complete a fighter squadron's history, this is a must-have. The biggest thing is that it's Navy...and Navy sells! :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on people.....a model company actually had the teste's to release a 1/48 Grumman Guardian. A Grumman Guardian! Seriously, a Guardian. And, a nice one to boot! And you say a 1/48 F11F-1 Tiger will not sell!?

Edited by jpk
Link to post
Share on other sites

For Special Hobby/MPM, a 1/48 F11F-1 Tiger would sell great! For Tamiya or Kitty Hawk, or Trumpeter, maybe not so much. Let's just guess that the total world-wide demand and sales potential for the 1/48 scale Tiger might be 5,000 units (don't quote me on this, I'm just using this figure to illustrate the point). Five thousand units would be a success for Special Hobby; it would be poor for the big guys. To the casual modeler, the Tiger would have little attraction outside of a Blue Angel. There were no international users and only brief use by its sole customer, the U.S. Navy. As much as I like the Tiger (to me it is aesthetically perfect!) I realize it has limited appeal. Frankly, I'm surprised that Tamiya took a chance with the Skyray (another beautiful short-lived airplane with no international use). I doubt they made money on it though. I'm equally mystified by some of the larger companies making large, expensive molds of the F-16XL and F-20. There were, what, two or three of each of these made? Yeah, they look sharp, but how many modelers "need" new models of these? And don't get me started on Luftwaffe '46.

And we still don't have ANY decent kits of the FJ-3 Fury!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

For Special Hobby/MPM, a 1/48 F11F-1 Tiger would sell great! For Tamiya or Kitty Hawk, or Trumpeter, maybe not so much. Let's just guess that the total world-wide demand and sales potential for the 1/48 scale Tiger might be 5,000 units (don't quote me on this, I'm just using this figure to illustrate the point). Five thousand units would be a success for Special Hobby; it would be poor for the big guys. To the casual modeler, the Tiger would have little attraction outside of a Blue Angel. There were no international users and only brief use by its sole customer, the U.S. Navy. As much as I like the Tiger (to me it is aesthetically perfect!) I realize it has limited appeal. Frankly, I'm surprised that Tamiya took a chance with the Skyray (another beautiful short-lived airplane with no international use). I doubt they made money on it though. I'm equally mystified by some of the larger companies making large, expensive molds of the F-16XL and F-20. There were, what, two or three of each of these made? Yeah, they look sharp, but how many modelers "need" new models of these? And don't get me started on Luftwaffe '46.

And we still don't have ANY decent kits of the FJ-3 Fury!!!

Agreed Paul.Some kits we'll never get to see in 1/48.F-11F Tiger Fj-3 Fury to name two.At least quality kits.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't despair I think someone will do it eventually there have been some kits that I thought would never see the light of day as Paul has said so perhaps we will see a 1/48 F11F-1 and maybe a FJ-3 too.

Now on the 1//72 front it seems likely that Sword, Valom or Special Hobby (BTW-are they the same company or related??) will do 1/72 FJ-3 or even the F11F-1. They did do the F9F-8P which I was surprised

Steve,

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, there is little wrong with the Hasegawa 1/72 F11F-1, unless you qualify fine raised panel lines "wrong." I've built five or six of them over the years, and it's a fine kit. I would much rather see 1/72 model manufacturers pay attention to the Fury than to bring out an "improved" Tiger.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, there is little wrong with the Hasegawa 1/72 F11F-1, unless you qualify fine raised panel lines "wrong." I've built five or six of them over the years, and it's a fine kit. I would much rather see 1/72 model manufacturers pay attention to the Fury than to bring out an "improved" Tiger.

I agree but I will take any new tooled kit in 1/48 and in 1//72 in my interest area. But yes an FJ-3 in both scales is much needed!

Steve,

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Tiger is a cool airplane, for sure. But in the grand scheme of the universe, it's really almost a side note (cool as it is). Yes, the Blue Angels flew it, and yes, it's cool. But there were only 200 built, and it was only in front line fleet service for five years.

There are a lot of "side note" aircraft that have been kitted. Some even far more obscure than the Tiger and far fewer manufactured. Look at the new Kinetic F-16XL(2 made)and someone is coming out with a new mold F-20A Tiger Shark (3 made). Not much of an argument against. As for front line service, the Panther, Cougar, Banshee, Demon and Skyray certainly had front line careers that were as short if not, only slightly longer. Some of the gestation periods for these planes were longer than their service lives. It wasn't until the Crusader and Phantom came along that USN front line jets lasted longer than the earlier fighers. A 1/48 Tiger, -3 Fury and a Cutlass are all needed. A Savage would be nice as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For Special Hobby/MPM, a 1/48 F11F-1 Tiger would sell great! For Tamiya or Kitty Hawk, or Trumpeter, maybe not so much. Let's just guess that the total world-wide demand and sales potential for the 1/48 scale Tiger might be 5,000 units (don't quote me on this, I'm just using this figure to illustrate the point). Five thousand units would be a success for Special Hobby; it would be poor for the big guys. To the casual modeler, the Tiger would have little attraction outside of a Blue Angel. There were no international users and only brief use by its sole customer, the U.S. Navy. As much as I like the Tiger (to me it is aesthetically perfect!) I realize it has limited appeal. Frankly, I'm surprised that Tamiya took a chance with the Skyray (another beautiful short-lived airplane with no international use). I doubt they made money on it though. I'm equally mystified by some of the larger companies making large, expensive molds of the F-16XL and F-20. There were, what, two or three of each of these made? Yeah, they look sharp, but how many modelers "need" new models of these? And don't get me started on Luftwaffe '46.

And we still don't have ANY decent kits of the FJ-3 Fury!!!

Come on now Paul. A Mac D Demon has a greater sales potential than a Tiger? A Grumman Cougar has a greater sales potential than a Tiger? I can't see the logic in the assessment but I am biased, I want a 1/48 Tiger. But like you I also want to see a FJ-3 Fury and also a new mold accurate Cutlass. What the heck, I want a Savage as well as an E-1 Tracer. Might as well go for broke.

Link to post
Share on other sites
A 1/48 Tiger, -3 Fury and a Cutlass are all needed.

Despite the venerable Paul Boyer's heroic crusade, we still can't seem to get a 1/72 FJ-3. So while we're discussing reasons as to why certain kits are/should not be produced, what's the consensus (ha ha) as to why the beautiful FJ-3 is totally ignored in all scales in the face of there being an obvious (?) market?

Gene K

EDIT: You'd think at least xx would copy the excellent 1/48 Collect Aire resin kit.

Edited by Gene K
Link to post
Share on other sites

i think you guys forget one thing, it wasn't about the F11F-1 not being a great modeling subject... it was, about KH distributor, that didn't wanted KH to do another 1/32 50's era US jet... (maybe it's just they don't want big kits that move slowly on their shelves) ...things could have been different if KH had pop out it's kits in a different order...

i think Kitty Hawk should stick to smaller scale models for a while...

Edited by mingwin
Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed - this was 1:32 F11F, not F11F..... There's still hope of 1:48 F11F, so we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully KH will have something to show us at Nationals here in ten days!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...