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Kitty Hawk F11F Tiger project reportedly declared dead


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You make very valid points. I've heard the point about the Catalina before, but I wonder about the long-term sales. When the kit was first released, they did the version with the beaching gear. I think everyone really wanted the -5a with the integral landing gear, so they held off on the -5 version. I think this is where the idea that the Catalina sold poorly came from. Over the long term, I believe they sold reasonably well. They seemed to sell well enough for Revell to rerelease them some years later. The subject that I think Revell swung and missed on was the Ju-52. But again, without hard data from the company, we'll never really know how they sold.

I guess everyone is out for a fast buck these days. Model companies included. I'm sure Monogram/Revell made their money back eventually on the Catalina and probably the Ju-52 as well. I know I bought one of each. As for the Catalina story, most manufacturers that are doing a particular subject that had several variations will design a modular kit from the beginning. Hasegawa is the king of modular. Eduard is not far behind. Hobby Boss/Gallery has done it with their H-34. You can see on the molds where the inserts are for doing the early bent leg and possibly the Wessex versions. The Kitty Hawk Cougar is obviously an example as well. Usually the manufacturer will release what they feel is the least desirable and delaying the release the one they feel has the highest sales potential.

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As for the service life of the Tiger, if that were the criteria as to whether or not an airplane gets kitted then there would be a lot of models out there that would not be here now. The Cougar probably served for as long a time as the Tiger in front line service. What makes that aircraft more deserving of being kitted vs the Tiger? Or the Banshee. Or the Skyray. Or the Demon. How many of those were made? It's well known that there are far fewer navy fighter planes made than airforce ones and to use that as a basis for whether or not making a kit is a stupid argument. There are any number of arguments that are just as stupid as numbers built, shots fired in anger, length of service life, etc.. The 1950's were a time of rapid advancement in aircraft. The navy passed through several designs before it became to expensive to have follow on designs in the pipeline one after the other. If the airforce hadn't been more or less forced initially to take the Phantom, how many of those do you think would have been built? Far fewer than were eventually built if it were just for the navy.

And what about that XF5U? Only ONE made so what's up with that one deserving a model made of it? Length of service -0-, shots fired in anger -0-, oh, weirdness factor, 10.

Tiger was a failed design. The Navy opted for the Crusader which was a much faster, more advanced aircraft, with much greater growth potential.

Every aircraft ever made will have some hard-core adherents who clamor for a kit of it (see the post above about the need for the XF5U), however a model company would have to have a death wish if they based their subjects on requests from a modeling forum. Does anyone really think there is a pent-up international demand for the Tiger? Outside of the US, I doubt very few people cares about this jet. Even in the US, it's still somewhat of a niche subject.

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Failed?? Outside US??

F11F fulfilled its design requirements, successfully deployed, and was useful for a long time for an originally not-required mission (training).

Like the F-94, better came along quickly. In the 50s, better came along before as-required entered service, regularly.

Many types, around the world, lasted about 3 years in front-line service before the replacement was fully in-service.

Outside US?

Did someone mention Japanese enthusiasm for USN jets?

At this moment eBay has FAOW (Famous Aircraft of the World--Japanese publication), and Hasegawa F11F.

As we consider "market" interest, maybe only in the US and Japan. But how much of the market is the US and Japan?

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Failed?? Outside US??

F11F fulfilled its design requirements, successfully deployed, and was useful for a long time for an originally not-required mission (training).

Like the F-94, better came along quickly. In the 50s, better came along before as-required entered service, regularly.

Many types, around the world, lasted about 3 years in front-line service before the replacement was fully in-service.

Outside US?

Did someone mention Japanese enthusiasm for USN jets?

At this moment eBay has FAOW (Famous Aircraft of the World--Japanese publication), and Hasegawa F11F.

As we consider "market" interest, maybe only in the US and Japan. But how much of the market is the US and Japan?

F11F Tiger books I have,the F11F FAOW, Steve Ginter's Naval Fighters #1 and #40, the Detail and Scale #17 along with several other books that have sections that revolve around the Tiger.

As tommy Thomason pointed out, the Super Tiger with the J79 was a real performer and the Japanese military was very interested. Several European countries were also interested like Germany. The J79 was lighter and more fuel efficient than the J65 so the knock that the Tiger didn't carry enough fuel was not true. The F-104 required external fuel just as any jet aircraft did during that time. The Lockheed sales department was better than Grumman's by offering bribes to select the F-104 over the Tiger. As it turned out the Super Tiger more than likely would have been a far better choice for those countries considering it was a more mature design and a far safer aircraft than the F-104. They didn't call it the widow maker for nothing.

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some facts correction is required here... the aircraft was in service for a while... a short while. a mere 5 years of carrier operation... 11 years as a trainer... 12 years as Blue Angels (which is, by the way less than the 29 years of the F-18 as Blue Angels Jet) and equal time as the A-4 did with the Blue Angels...

...in all, 200 F11F Tiger where built... not much for a rather small and simple aircraft... (not what i would call neither a "significant" part of USNAVY arms ...even at that time... )

for all the "attractiveness" of that aircraft versus how ugly is another subject, it's fully subjective, irrelevant ... to each his own, personally the F-35 have some angles where it looks not-bad-at-all... and to me the F11F looks like some winged-pointy-cigar-case...

with all due respect; your dad flew it, it's part of your childhood, you're emotionally bound to that "subject" ...we got it!monketdance4.gif

also, i don't know, if KH will produce the 1/48 Vought XF5U, but if they do so, i may certainly buy one, as it looks totally weird, and will be a great addition to my collection of models. also, on the plus side, it would be a rather small model... simpler and cheaper (than any other products of their line)...maybe their distributor will like that!

At the time, not all time use with the Blue Angels.The Hornet and Skyhawk were after the fact. As numbers go, more than the F-22 that's for sure (now there's an airplane I like). For a mid 1950s Naval fighter its time in service wasn't all that bad. There must be a whole bunch of Navy fighters of the 1950s that you consider not significant. Anyway, they have talked about producing the flying pancake in 1/32 scale. Lets see what happens there. I know i won't take the time to build one. As a pilot i wouldn't be caught dead or alive in the beast if given the opportunity. I don't connect with it at all. And yes I fly airplanes that I have an emotional attachment too. The same goes for building models of them i guess.

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As for the service life of the Tiger, if that were the criteria as to whether or not an airplane gets kitted then there would be a lot of models out there that would not be here now. The Cougar probably served for as long a time as the Tiger in front line service. What makes that aircraft more deserving of being kitted vs the Tiger? Or the Banshee. Or the Skyray. Or the Demon. How many of those were made? It's well known that there are far fewer navy fighter planes made than airforce ones and to use that as a basis for whether or not making a kit is a stupid argument. There are any number of arguments that are just as stupid as numbers built, shots fired in anger, length of service life, etc.. The 1950's were a time of rapid advancement in aircraft. The navy passed through several designs before it became to expensive to have follow on designs in the pipeline one after the other. If the airforce hadn't been more or less forced initially to take the Phantom, how many of those do you think would have been built? Far fewer than were eventually built if it were just for the navy.

And what about that XF5U? Only ONE made so what's up with that one deserving a model made of it? Length of service -0-, shots fired in anger -0-, oh, weirdness factor, 10.

to use the number of built units of a certain airframe, as a clue on how successful it was is not a "stupid" argument (it may not be the main factor to produce a subject versus another... but still can be use for comparison)

i'm aware of the differences between USNAVY and USAF. when i wrote that the Tiger was not widely produced, i was referring to other USNAVY aircraft.

F9 cougar/F9H Panther : 1382 unit produced, F2H Banshee: 895 unit produced... F3H Demon: 519... F4D Skyray: 422 airframe produced... so the less successful of those was produced more than twice the F11F...

all those "stupid" argument you mentioned, like "shoot in anger" and service life, are not "stupid" ... it give good clue on the place in "aviation History" a certain subject have... i know, it's not all... i know...

also, the USAF might have been force to take the Phantom at a time... but if it hasn't been a good aircraft, they sure wouldn't have ordered that much for the airforce... nor sells it to other countries!

only one XF5U was ever made, it never even take off!!! IIRC... nonetheless, if there was a kit of the Area51 scaucer, i don't see why there couldn't be a kit of that weird object. at least it was really made. USNAVY stopped that project because of the Jet engine was now avalaible... (i'm not a fan of that Weird thing, but still think that it would be a good museum subject...as the Horten Ho229...)

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At the time, not all time use with the Blue Angels.The Hornet and Skyhawk were after the fact. As numbers go, more than the F-22 that's for sure (now there's an airplane I like). For a mid 1950s Naval fighter its time in service wasn't all that bad. There must be a whole bunch of Navy fighters of the 1950s that you consider not significant. Anyway, they have talked about producing the flying pancake in 1/32 scale. Lets see what happens there. I know i won't take the time to build one. As a pilot i wouldn't be caught dead or alive in the beast if given the opportunity. I don't connect with it at all. And yes I fly airplanes that I have an emotional attachment too. The same goes for building models of them i guess.

numbers where only a "clue", a factor...... not an absolute thing... there is many other factors .... there wasn't much SR-71 made... nonetheless a very significant aircraft (as for the B-2, the STS...) but these where incredible machines...

anyway, 1/32 is not my scale (at all) so if they do the pancake in 1/32, don't count me in... even for the coolest subject...

as for the emotional attachment to the subject, i think that most of us will do same as you... i was only underlining it, as the claim you do on the F11F where a bit stretched for me... so, no offence intended here!

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what surprise me the most, in that cancellation story, was the need, from the company "representative"(or owner, i don't know) to make an announcement about it! ...i'm not "in the know" of all that modelling business, but this make me realizing that the distributors have their word to say at some point in the process...

this all tends to make me think that the KH brand performs on the market, the same way it does on modelling forums... some good, some bad... and some "questionable"...

also, i'm pretty sure that if it the project was in 1/48, it wouldn't have been blocked... it if had been pulled out before all the other Couger,twogar (and still upcoming Banshee), it might have been different... ...and if Blue Angels F11F, and Sharkmouth one's where use in some promotional artwork to "tease" instead of just plain (even if well done) 3d drawings... it might have created more Buzz around...

that being said, i'm happy that the 1/48 Voodoo made it! i haven't buy the single seater, but await the twin seater, and will certainly buy one... or more if the kit is good!

Edited by mingwin
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[snip]The Lockheed sales department was better than Grumman's by offering bribes to select the F-104 over the Tiger. As it turned out the Super Tiger more than likely would have been a far better choice for those countries considering it was a more mature design and a far safer aircraft than the F-104. They didn't call it the widow maker for nothing.

Am I the only one here with a copy of the album Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters? I bought it in the 70's because of the name but it turned out to be a scathing retort to the Luftwaffe's decision to buy the plane. As a rock album it's not too bad... :unsure:/>

Edited by Slartibartfast
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but this make me realizing that the distributors have their word to say at some point in the process...

Mainstream kit manufacturers sell their kits to Distributors, who then sell it onto their Retailers, who then sell it on to the public. This benefits the manufacturer, as they only have to worry about a small selection of clients instead of having a vast Sales Team trying to sell kits to every single Retailer. What I assume happened to KH is that the Distributors couldn't see a market for a 1/32 Tiger (probably because the positive feedback from their Retailers was minimal). Without Retailers willing to buy the kit, the Distributors wouldn't place orders with KH, which led KH to cancel the project.

Edited by vince14
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You pretty much nailed it, Vince.

At least in one case the distributor didn't get positive feedback from his retailers - and the importer explicitly asked for feedback in the run-up. Further factors in reaching a decision, whether to stockpile a future release or not, are rather current and past retail purchase orders/repeat orders than scale or subject/significance. According to a statement from one of the owners, the Tiger was axed due to lack of interest from the European and Asian distributors, considering a large scale Tiger as big question mark. And such decisions are generally well-considered and based on hard figures.

Just to put it straight, this doesn't necessarily mean that kits from a particular manufacturer are considered as shelf warmers in general.

Edited by Airfixer
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According to a statement from one of the owners, ....

Would be interesting to know how many "owners" Kitty Hawk has. Evidently Glen (Kagnew) and ???

I'm still skeptical that a distributor has that much influence (a kill switch) over a manufacturer 's choice of subject matter. Who, in Kitty Hawk's case, is this omniscient and omnipotent distributor who makes Kitty Hawk look impotent?

Gene K

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Well, discussion is good as it can be used to show interest in the subject but perhaps not for the intended scale of the release in question.

Who the other owner(s) is/are is irrelevant as the one who posted the news stated he had the power and authority to put it back on. Also, nowhere was one distributor mentioned. It was always plural. This is the original news post by Kagnew (Glen):

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showuser=1674

Regards,

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Given Fisher pulled the pin on a 32nd Tiger and they have released 6 beautiful 1950's Navy jets that have sold well is an indicator of the situation.

Feel sorry for the Tiger lovers but count me in the give me a Starfire any day over a Tiger camp.

Good luck in 48th..

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I'm still skeptical that a distributor has that much influence (a kill switch) over a manufacturer 's choice of subject matter.

KH needs the Distributors to buy the kits in bulk so they can shift their product fast and make money quickly - stock sitting in warehouses loses you cash hand over fist. Equally, though, the Distributors need to shift the kits to the Retailers quickly because they don't want a load of stock sitting in their warehouses losing them money either - which is what would happen if the Retailers don't buy the kit (and also why manufacturers are now releasing CAD drawings of future kits - to drum up interest so the Retailers know there is a demand for a certain kit). If the Retailers won't buy from the Distributor, then the Distributor won't buy from KH, which leaves KH with three choices;

1) Manufacture the kit anyway in the hope that the US Distributor will buy enough for them to at least break even.

2) Manufacture the kit anyway, and try to 'do a Wingnut Wings' and sell the kit directly to the end user.

3) Cancel the project.

Of those three, only the last option doesn't risk you losing a huge amount of money. If you're Tamiya, Airfix, Revell etc. you can afford the odd dud kit. If you're small, like KH, you can't.

Ultimately, though, it's not the fault of the Distributors or the Retailers that the Tiger was canned. It's the lack of interest - whether perceived or actual - in a 1/32 Tiger kit in Europe and Asia that has given the Retailers there cold feet, and the potential sales in North America won't cover the cost of producing the kit.

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[...]

I'm still skeptical that a distributor has that much influence (a kill switch) over a manufacturer 's choice of subject matter. Who, in Kitty Hawk's case, is this omniscient and omnipotent distributor who makes Kitty Hawk look impotent?

[...]

"At least in one case"

[...]

At least in one case the distributor didn't get positive feedback from his retailers - and the importer explicitly asked for feedback in the run-up.

[...]

And yet again, "at least one":

With reference to recent retail order figures and overall retailer feedback/requests, at least one distributor (I'm not going to disclose the company's name, of course) seems to have second thoughts as to scale AND subject.

[...]

The company in question falls in the said category "European/Asian distributors" which, in their entirety (kill switch), were drawing pretty much the same conclusions, eventually resulting in KittyHawk's decision to put the F11F on halt. (c.f. Glen's LSP post)

I was simply pointing out which factors, other than scale and subject, may also contribute to a distributor's decision-making process. As a case study based on close personal contacts with that company.

Erik

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In my opinion, money can be made with a 1/48 scale F11F-1 Tiger, not so much 1/32. Same with the Banshee and FJ-3 Fury. There were enough interesting markings to go on all of these 50's jets to encourage multiple purchases by enthusiasts. To the casual buyer, attractive boxart of this beautiful jet (aesthetically perfect I think) in colorful squadron service and another as a Blue Angel should get the job done. True, the Tiger didn't last long in service (except as a Blue Angel), but few Navy aircraft developed in the early '50s did (Cutlass, Demon, Skyray, BIG Banshees, Fury). But if marketed the way Hasegawa markets kits, a 1/48 Tiger could sell in sufficient numbers (eventually). Hasegawa's 1/72 Tiger dates from the late 1970s, and along with its Crusader, were some of their last kits with fine raised panel lines. The Tiger has been pretty much available ever since then, and has been issued in about a dozen different boxes, most recently coupled with the Cougar in a combo box. They even made a short-nosed early version with a resin nose replacement (not too good, BTW) and issued that in two boxes, one an early Blue Angel. I too was surprised that KH chose to announce a 1/32 Tiger, and not surprised that they cancelled it. I would not be surprised if they soon announce a Tiger in 1/48. Time will tell.

Now, where is my 1/72 FJ-3 Fury?!

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i've just notice, a few lines down in the LSP forum thread linked by the OP, tha Kagnew (Glenn) also announce the the 1/48 F2H-2P was also cancelled...(but the 1/48 F2H-2 would be ready for Christmas)

...i know, it's a trend in the industry, to try to make the most variant from a mold set, it's also totally understandable, and legit... some companies have done it so well and so much... that they'd nearly reach Hasegawa's level in that Art!w00t.gif

but they tend to have a slower pace in the output... and choose more easily sell-able subjects...

IMHO, the KH way of bringing subjects might have not please the distributor(S)...

i remember, the Jaguar A... while everyone was asking for the GR.

...also the Mirage F1 B... while most asked for the CR/CT

the F-101A... as a RF-101G (or C...the long nosed ones) was what would have sell better (i, personally wait for the CF-101B version, like most canadian modellers)

...and now it was about to be the F2H-2P before the F2H-2... while the demand might be better for the F2H-3/4 (count on the Canadian Mafia support)

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In my opinion, money can be made with a 1/48 scale F11F-1 Tiger, not so much 1/32. Same with the Banshee and FJ-3 Fury. There were enough interesting markings to go on all of these 50's jets to encourage multiple purchases by enthusiasts. To the casual buyer, attractive boxart of this beautiful jet (aesthetically perfect I think) in colorful squadron service and another as a Blue Angel should get the job done. True, the Tiger didn't last long in service (except as a Blue Angel), but few Navy aircraft developed in the early '50s did (Cutlass, Demon, Skyray, BIG Banshees, Fury). But if marketed the way Hasegawa markets kits, a 1/48 Tiger could sell in sufficient numbers (eventually). Hasegawa's 1/72 Tiger dates from the late 1970s, and along with its Crusader, were some of their last kits with fine raised panel lines. The Tiger has been pretty much available ever since then, and has been issued in about a dozen different boxes, most recently coupled with the Cougar in a combo box. They even made a short-nosed early version with a resin nose replacement (not too good, BTW) and issued that in two boxes, one an early Blue Angel. I too was surprised that KH chose to announce a 1/32 Tiger, and not surprised that they cancelled it. I would not be surprised if they soon announce a Tiger in 1/48. Time will tell.

Now, where is my 1/72 FJ-3 Fury?!

1/72nd scale FJ-3 Fury!?.....I believe you meant a 1/48th scale FJ-3 Fury...lol

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