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Question about buzz numbers


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Hello everyone,

was there a size guideline for buzz numbers? I'm working on some F-104 stuff and the TO I found doesn't include them. The serials are supposed to be 12", but the buzz numbers appear to be somewhat larger. Measuring from a few existing decal sheets (Cutting Edge, Victory, Hasegawa), they scale out as something like 13.8"... Were the stencils for those numbers cut individually or were they just taken "off-the-shelf"? If they were off-the-shelf standard sizes, then it's more likely that they were 13.5" or 14", isn't it?

Cheers

Jeffrey

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Hi Jeffrey,

It looks like the size varied, depending on the aircraft. The 1964 T.O. 1-1-4 has the sizes for each aircraft type that carried them: USAF SIG The F-104 has 16" buzz numbers (page 88-89 of the pdf).

Cheers!

Ben

Edited by Ben Brown
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Hi Ben,

thanks for the link! I have no doubt that the sizes varied depending on aircraft type, just as the other markings varied in size as well. However, 16" does appear a little large, in 1:48 that would be 8.46mm. The ones I've measured on decal sheets range from 6.9mm to 7.4mm which looks about right on the model as well. That said though, I've just had a look at the decal sheet in Hasgawa's F-104D box which contains buzz numbers for two machines, one is 8.1 and the other a whopping 9.2mm high!

I'm thinking about making paint mask sets for USAF NMF planes such as the F-104 so you don't have the ugly clear decal film around the large markings ruining your NMF. I'm wondering what size I should supply the buzz numbers in... Perhaps two or even three sizes...?

Cheers

Jeffrey

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Jeffrey - buzz numbers are not covered in TO 1-1-4 as they were far earlier.

There is a good book on the subject - "Buzz Numbers" by Peter Bowers which is a great reference.

I can have a look when I get home later in the week if that would help?

Chris

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Chris, you should read Ben's post.

There wasn't "only one" TO 1-1-4. There were many of them over the years, each with a date of effectiveness on them.

I'd say that Ben has a release that is earlier than your's.

The same thing happens in the Navair specs, too, they had different names at different times, and different dates on the ones that the names matched on,,,,,,,sometimes they had the same name, the same number, and a different suffix letter for each newer release.

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Hi Jeffrey,

Glad to help! Painted or dry transfer markings would look great on a NMF, especially on an F-104, with its highly polished fuselage!

Chris, click on the USAF SIG link in my earlier post. They have 4 different versions of T.O. 1-1-4, from 1964, when buzz numbers were still being applied, to 1998. I think there may have been at least one more version of the T.O. since then that might be available for download from the US Gov somewhere. They're interesting to browse through to see how USAF aircraft markings have changed over the years.

Cheers!

Ben

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Ben, did the USAF have "update add-ons" for the existing TO's?

I ask because it appears that the 1964 edition stayed in effect until 1978. Where there "Change A" and "Change B" etc added to this document?

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Ben, did the USAF have "update add-ons" for the existing TO's?

I ask because it appears that the 1964 edition stayed in effect until 1978. Where there "Change A" and "Change B" etc added to this document?

I'm no expert on it, but it looks like that's the case. One 1998 version you can find online has "14 May 1994, Change 7 17 July 1998" at the bottom of the first page. Another has "Change 6 20 MAR 1998." Dave Menard once mentioned the original 1-1-4 was the 1964 version.

Ben

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F-104s had 14" buzz numbers. That's done by scaling them out with the proper letter spacing and landmarks from photos. I know the T.O. says different, but you simply can't make 16" ones fit on a scale drawing or a scale model the way the do on the real airplane. When you drop them to 14", they fit like a glove.

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Chris, you should read Ben's post.

There wasn't "only one" TO 1-1-4. There were many of them over the years, each with a date of effectiveness on them.

I'd say that Ben has a release that is earlier than your's.

The same thing happens in the Navair specs, too, they had different names at different times, and different dates on the ones that the names matched on,,,,,,,sometimes they had the same name, the same number, and a different suffix letter for each newer release.

Rex - I'm well aware of that. You may notice from my sig that I'm the webmaster and owner of the USAF SIG site :) The "buzz number" system pre-dates TO 1-1-4 which did not come into being until around 1964 (from memory).

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To clarify... The "Buzz Number" system was actually an adaptation of the British system.

It was first adopted in October 1945 through a revision of TO 07-1-1B (Aircraft Camouflage, Markings and Insignia) - unfortunately I don't have a copy of this

In 1956 this was amended to be TO 1-1-636 and in 1964 it was revised to be TO 1-1-4.

There was a revision of 07-1-1B in 1948 which removed the buzz number from under the wing and replaced it by "USAF".

As regards sizes, the only thing I've found is a reference that states a minimum size of 8"x12" and a maximum of 32"x48"

Edited by UKPonchoMan
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Chris, just find some way to reconcile these two things.

"The F-104 has 16" buzz numbers (page 88-89 of the pdf)."

followed by your line

"buzz numbers are not covered in TO 1-1-4 as they were far earlier."

If you will just flop open the TO from 1964, you will find that Buzz numbers were still alive and well in 1964. As in "still alive and well from earlier times"

If you would, sir, you would see that the 1964 TO does indeed call for Buzz numbers in 1964. (edit, and I just downloaded the 1964, just to look,,,,,,page 88-89 is indeed the location for F-104 Buzz numbers)

Rex (happy owner of photos of buzz numbered RF-4C,,,,,in 1967)

Edited by Rex
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You're right - I stand corrected! I'm going to blame this on the fact that it's been a LONG working day!

It is interesting how the rules changed but it took such a long time for everything to move from buzz numbers to tail codes - your RF-4C is a great example

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Thank you all for your help. As always with these matters, the more you look into it the more confusing it gets. I've just took a Hasegawa fuselage half, stuck a bit of clear tape over the buzz number area and marked out in pencil the outline of the number, just from looking at photos and features like the air brake and panel lines. I took off the tape and measured it flat. Result: 16 scale inches! But different photos seem to show different sizes anyway...

Cheers

Jeffrey

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