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If there is problem, it needs to be shown. It is not such big problem but problem is real. How BIG PR was for AMK MiG-31, and after all posts and technology tweaks, Trumpy/HB kit is better. Now I think that same scenario is here. But only different people beacuse project is different.

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6 minutes ago, mario krijan said:

If there is problem, it needs to be shown. It is not such big problem but problem is real. How BIG PR was for AMK MiG-31, and after all posts and technology tweaks, Trumpy/HB kit is better. Now I think that same scenario is here. But only different people beacuse project is different.

 

Well...Trumpi/HB already have a Tomcat and it's far from good! can be fixed but it's a lot of work. ;-)

 

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1 hour ago, Gene K said:

Hello Don,

 

Could you point me to where and why AMK stated that, please? Did they state why and what the results would be?

 

 

Gene I would love to but it was on their Facebook page (when they revealed their first pictures of the molds of the F-14D wings). Not being a Facebook user I have no idea how to go about finding it and linking it. Perhaps another ARC'er who is a Facebook user could? As to why they are choosing to not polish their molds, I believe when questioned they cited time and cost.

 

Sorry, but I hope this helps...a little.

 

Regards,

Don.

 

EDIT: I think this should work Gene. Follow this link and scroll down to the thread about the wing molds (3rd or 4th topic from the "Pre-order Round Two" topic):

https://www.facebook.com/avantgardemodelkits/?hc_ref=ARQ8pQIdbrG_0tgoVeoDnY4DJzuR6nzbARQ7CJcCWkz1yhXTc4AzsHJ0n1ZCTaehoH0

If the link is a fail then I do apologize and if anyone could render assistance that would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

Edited by Don
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29 minutes ago, Don said:

Follow this link and scroll down to the thread about the wing molds (3rd or 4th topic from the "Pre-order Round Two" topic):

 

The link works fine, Don - thanks.

 

Regarding AMK response that  "All of our kits are with this EDM finished surfaces" --   have no idea what  EDM means or what the implication is as regards associated surface quality. Further, it's not clear if this a new process for them -- or whether all their previous "acceptable" kits used this process.

 

Personally, I don't think the sky is falling. 

 

Gene K

Edited by Gene K
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49 minutes ago, anj4de said:

 

Well...Trumpi/HB already have a Tomcat and it's far from good! can be fixed but it's a lot of work. ;-)

 

I am comparing two kits, which we have in plastic, on one side AMK MiG-31 and trumpy/HB on another side. Same scenario, different people, talking about how fantastic it is, but after all Trumpy/HB kit is better, a voice from same people.  I have two MiGs, from AMK, and I like them a lot. A scenario of PR for this kit is same for this Tomcat.

 

EDM is  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining

 

 

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The problem isn't simply that AMK has issued a kit that may have minor surface roughness, it isn't even that they also issued some warped bombs in the same kit. It is the combination of all of these issues, which are extremely concerning:

 

1. You have the inability to repeatedly make the release date.

2. You have a continuing fiasco over the distributors, multiple pre-orders, some requiring pre-payment some not, orders being cancelled etc.

3. You have another kit that was issued with mistakes (rough surface & warped parts) that no modern kit should be issued with.

 

This all adds up to a pattern of a company that is operating on a very thin edge, that also does not have a handle on QC issues and it surely does not make me excited for the release of an upcoming kit, that will perhaps make or break said company. We surely do not need another bungled Tomcat kit, as HobbyBoss already hit that hard. In my opinion, AMK needs to hit this out of the park, particularly with Tamiya laying in the background with the potential to issue an F-14 B/D.

 

And sure, the surface issues on the newly issued Kfir may be minor/easily fixable and the bombs are easily replaceable, however these are issues that should have been corrected before the kit was issued and show that perhaps they skipped the test shot stage in a rush to get the kit out the door. IMO, no modern kit should be issued in this condition.

 

Again, let me reiterate that I have five Tomcats pre-ordered (assuming they all are honored) and any other opinions are STRICTLY my own. You are (as always) free to form your own opinions.

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One last thought, AMK has said in the past that their parent company is an injection molding company that makes plastic injection products. That having been said, they are in DIRECT control over the molding process (as it isn't being done by a contractor), so there is no excuse IMO for issues like this to surface (no pun intended). Assuming you are at least doing the barest minimum of QC. 

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9 minutes ago, madmanrick said:

The problem isn't simply that AMK has issued a kit that may have minor surface roughness, it isn't even that they also issued some warped bombs in the same kit. It is the combination of all of these issues, which are extremely concerning:

 

1. You have the inability to repeatedly make the release date.

2. You have a continuing fiasco over the distributors, multiple pre-orders, some requiring pre-payment some not, orders being cancelled etc.

3. You have another kit that was issued with mistakes (rough surface & warped parts) that no modern kit should be issued with.

 

This all adds up to a pattern of a company that is operating on a very thin edge, that also does not have a handle on QC issues and it surely does not make me excited for the release of an upcoming kit, that will perhaps make or break said company. We surely do not need another bungled Tomcat kit, as HobbyBoss already hit that hard. In my opinion, AMK needs to hit this out of the park, particularly with Tamiya laying in the background with the potential to issue an F-14 B/D.

 

And sure, the surface issues on the newly issued Kfir may be minor/easily fixable and the bombs are easily replaceable, however these are issues that should have been corrected before the kit was issued and show that perhaps they skipped the test shot stage in a rush to get the kit out the door. IMO, no modern kit should be issued in this condition.

 

Again, let me reiterate that I have five Tomcats pre-ordered (assuming they all are honored) and any other opinions are STRICTLY my own. You are (as always) free to form your own opinions.

 

I agree with what you said...but on the other hand, AMK already had a 48scale Kfir our without bomb issues, they were made of aware of the fuselage issue AND FIXED IT ! Which other company would do that? Look at ZM, the fuselage issue on their Phantom was pointed out the day the first plastic pics of their -J version showed up! We are now at the 3rd kit of that line and the mistake has still not been corrected!

AMK right now is a typical case of having laid the measuring stick very high with their first kits...small numbers though and no big popularity...and now are totally overwhelmed by the expections that folks (rightfully) put into one of the "holy cow" kits of this planet. I think a 48 scale Tomcat is amongst the top 5 of all plane models. Big shoes...very big shoes!

I will not pre-oder one but once it shows up will get a good share for myself :-)

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4 hours ago, Gene K said:

Hello Don,

 

Could you point me to where and why AMK stated that, please? Did they state why and what the results would be?

 

The over-reaction (!!) by some to pictures purporting to show rough texture on the new Kfir is a shame since it's apparently dissuading some to  get that kit. Yes, it's there in a small area (and it shouldn't be!), but a few swipes of a fine sanding stick will smooth it to match the rest of the kit.

 

Gene K

 

 

 

 Yeah, the rough plastic is easily fixed by sanding and polishing. By the way, the rough texture exists on both fuselage halves in my AMK Kfir copy...

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8 hours ago, Gene K said:

The link works fine, Don - thanks.

 

Regarding AMK response that  "All of our kits are with this EDM finished surfaces" --   have no idea what  EDM means or what the implication is as regards associated surface quality. 

 

EDM is Electronic Discharge Machining. Think 3D printing but instead of building up a shape EDM removes material to make a shape, in this case to cut out a mold. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining

 

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...dit dit dit dit... This just in from AMK Facebook page....

 

 

***IMPORTANT MESSAGE***

It has been brought to our attention (thanks Ryan Fernandez) that some of the slide molded bombs contained in our latest release 1/48 Kfir are misshapen.
We have investigated and it seems that some of the first batch of kits were shipped with these errors.
Whilst we try to get everything right first time, all the time, we recognise that it’s important to do the right thing and replace them all.
We will be re molding the bombs and sending these out to our distributors very soon.

Our quality is our highest priority and we are just as sad about this. The issue lay with one of the tools so we have taken the tool out of service.
We use a camera to test each part as it comes out of the tool and this was also found to be faulty and missed the side of the bomb. This is also now changed.
We use a camera because this is usually more accurate than the Mk.1 "eyeball". Perhaps not in this instance.
It's not so easy to see by eye but the issue can be seen when shown in "macro" and that's enough for us to rectfiy.

We all appreciate your support very much and we are sure you’ll allow some leeway in this.

After all, it’s not necessarily the mistake but how it’s handled.
You have our unreserved apologies if this causes you any delay or inconvenience in building our kit.

Thanks for the ongoing support.

Sio, Martin, Vicky and the team.

 

Also, they are in contact with Victory models in the US regards the newest round of pre-orders.

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7 hours ago, picknpluck said:

There's something to be said for taking responsibility,  I suppose.

Absolutely...! Even though AMK has some teething issues still their response and alaso their actions after legitimate customer complaints is top notch. The "new" Kfir in it's whole is the resiult of such a complaint and deserves honoring. There are others out there who sit on their shiny horse and do not care what the foot soldiers say...ZM do you hear me?

I am looking fwd to the ne Kfir, will get one as soon as they show up in Europe!

 

thanks

Uwe

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23 hours ago, habu2 said:

 

EDM is Electronic Discharge Machining. Think 3D printing but instead of building up a shape EDM removes material to make a shape, in this case to cut out a mold. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining

 

there's alittle more to it than an EDM machine process. You'll need what is commonly called out as a "sinker". This machine does not use the common seen .010" or .012" brass wire to cut the metal. A sinker uses either a male version of the cutting area done in graphite or copper inert tungsten. Either way you first machine a male image of the part you plan to make. Cutting process is very slow. When you finally reach the finished depth, but short about .002", to go back in there with a new slug that is very finely finished to clean everything up a little bit and make all the corners and angles near perfect. Making the slug can be easy, or can be horrible. You drop something on it, and you start all over. The copper / tungsten piece is better, but also extremely expensive. A piece of Copper/tungsten the size of the kit parts will cost as much as a new car!

gary 

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12 hours ago, anj4de said:

Absolutely...! Even though AMK has some teething issues still their response and alaso their actions after legitimate customer complaints is top notch. The "new" Kfir in it's whole is the resiult of such a complaint and deserves honoring. There are others out there who sit on their shiny horse and do not care what the foot soldiers say...ZM do you hear me?

I am looking fwd to the ne Kfir, will get one as soon as they show up in Europe!

 

thanks

Uwe

notice how quiet it is in the peanut gallery???

gary

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8 hours ago, Gene K said:

Great explanation, Gary, thanks.

 

So why should/does EDM produce a rough(er) surface as has been impugned?

 

Gene K

I once had some gears cut via wire EDM because the proper cutter was 22 weeks out. I took the job to a guy that is about the best I've ever seen with EDM processes. He told me what he had to have, and I got him the stock he needed. Tom cut the gears in about ten hours at a cutting speed of .040" a minute, and brought them down to me to cut the bores and key ways. (I usually did the bore first, but was too pressed for time and his machine was empty). The finish was barely acceptable, and felt like 400 grit sand paper. I knew they were very accurate, but also knew they'd wear in and become loose. Tom cut them within a thousandth of an inch, and the only way better would have been to grind them. Too late!

So I cut some more steel, and went thru the same process, but leaving an extra .003" all the way around. Then Tom went back in and cut the remaining .003" and a very slow rate. Gears looked satin finished, but were actually very smooth. 

 

Tom explained that there was a spark that came off the wire or slug that would also add a very fine pitting to the surface. The three thousandth cut at a very slow rate made up for about 75% of the pitting. The cutting device (wire or slug) actually burns it's way thru the metal, and there's always a little bit of a spark going out from it. Different metals require different current to be cut. I can't tell you all that much about the setup as I was just the guy who processed it thru there. Yet I did it seven days a week.  I'd say the best micro you can get is about a ten or twelve, while a ground finish will come in anywhere from four to a ten. To get that mirror finish some of us want, your looking at months of hand lapping and a lot of diamond dust. 

gary

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1 hour ago, Martin @ AMK Models said:

 

Great stuff.... Very interesting to see the video.

 

I honestly think down the road EDM processes with be replaced with diamond water jet as it's accuracy and quality steadily increases. The price of keeping a 500 amp power supply is serious, let alone the miles (literally miles) of brass wire. Copper inert tungsten has gotten so ridicules that the Government has stepped in to regulate the supply. I suspect that down the road someone will develop a process to rough in the molds with a powder metal casting, and then finish it out by hand. 

 

Two secret projects? One better be an F100d!

gary 

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On 12/12/2017 at 6:56 PM, anj4de said:

Absolutely...! Even though AMK has some teething issues still their response and alaso their actions after legitimate customer complaints is top notch. The "new" Kfir in it's whole is the resiult of such a complaint and deserves honoring. There are others out there who sit on their shiny horse and do not care what the foot soldiers say...ZM do you hear me?

I am looking fwd to the ne Kfir, will get one as soon as they show up in Europe!

 

thanks

Uwe

 

Mmmm ZM where more than happy to delay the He-219 kit to fix the canopy after it was found to be incorrect so thats a pretty poor example of a company who does not listen or respond....

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