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If I buy a D model at all it will be an AMK Tomcat. I like the options for having flaps, slats and spoilers open. I have a feeling that Tamiya's will offer the same kind of clean wing they did with the A model.

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I think it's fair to remember that small companies like AMK are more likely to offer off-the-beaten-path subjects that Tamiya or Hasegawa would never go near. Also, AMK cares about accuracy and fidelity to the prototype, and listens to that small group of crazies that also cares. Some other "new entrants" can't be bothered--as they crank out substandard kit after kit.

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22 minutes ago, punder said:

I think it's fair to remember that small companies like AMK are more likely to offer off-the-beaten-path subjects that Tamiya or Hasegawa would never go near. 

I agree.  I will purchase the three AMK's that I have committed to, when available.  Tamiya already gets enough of my money and will get even more when they actually produce a f-16d.

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7 minutes ago, modelingbob said:

If the AMK F-14 is as good as their MiG-31, I'll be buying it. Tamiya releasing theirs before AMK has no impact for me as I'll be buying both! Hopefully, AMK will take their time and do the F-14 up good, regardless if Tamiya releases theirs first.

 

Where are we going to ? ... AMK is getting better and better with each new kit, and so does Tamiya....

 

There is always enough place for quality product. There are just different approaches.

 

I'll trust AMK for this one , as I did before...and I never had to regret it.

 

Madcop  :thumbsup:

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On 3/29/2018 at 7:30 PM, Jonathan_Lotton said:


It's his blanket response for any critique towards AMK for the handling of the Tomcat affair. 

"Yeah well how can you do better?" "Do you run a model company?" "Troll"..

Even people who have pre-ordered the AMK Tomcat (like I have, two actually)..anyone who calls AMK to task is a troll and gets attacked. 

 

 

Jon,

Who said this? Certainly not me or Sio and we are the only people who can talk for the company.

Please be kind enough to show evidence of this because neither Sio nor I have ever said these things anywhere.

We do not feel this and we would absolutely challenge it vehemently.

 

I have never used the world troll and I doubt that Sio would either.
 

I think you will find that we have been nothing but gracious throughout and accepting of our failures.

Edited by Martin @ AMK Models
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1 hour ago, Martin @ AMK Models said:

 

Jon,

Who said this? Certainly not me or Sio and we are the only people who can talk for the company.

Please be kind enough to show evidence of this because neither Sio nor I have ever said these things anywhere.

We do not feel this and we would absolutely challenge it vehemently.

 

I have never used the world troll and I doubt that Sio would either.
 

I think you will find that we have been nothing but gracious throughout and accepting of our failures.


Oh goodness no Martin, not you or Sio at all!

I was referring to CheshireCat...

You've been stellar. 

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1 hour ago, Martin @ AMK Models said:

 

I think you will find that we have been nothing but gracious throughout and accepting of our failures.

 

Martin:

 

You are more than gracious. I don’t have an AMK F-14D on order, but the moment they become available I will. AMK have shown a lot of innovation with this and other models, and you should also be recognized for that. The slide-molded missiles are sublime. The wings are an answer to many modelers’ wishes. 

 

Do it right. Don’t sweat the impatient complaining of some. We are all eager to see this beast, so just stick to your process. 

 

And put out an F-21 version of your Kfir!

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1 hour ago, andrew.deboer said:

 

Martin:

 

You are more than gracious. I don’t have an AMK F-14D on order, but the moment they become available I will. AMK have shown a lot of innovation with this and other models, and you should also be recognized for that. The slide-molded missiles are sublime. The wings are an answer to many modelers’ wishes. 

 

Do it right. Don’t sweat the impatient complaining of some. We are all eager to see this beast, so just stick to your process. 

 

And put out an F-21 version of your Kfir!

 

Yes. Pre-ordered, and at a great price!!

 

F-111 series, right???

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7 hours ago, andrew.deboer said:

AMK have shown a lot of innovation with this and other models, and you should also be recognized for that. The slide-molded missiles are sublime.

Lets take single-piece ordnance. This was introduced by GWH on the 1/48 MiG-29s. AMK made it systematic.

 

There are pros and cons to everything.

 

Pros:

- no need to align the missile fins

- almost no seam when the mould parts are propely aligned

 

Cons:

- terrible steps if the mould parts aren't properly aligned (tooling wear)

- plastic and in-box space waste and : each part has to have its own sprue, no mutualization of the sprue is possible; shipment cost of an individual box depends on the box size so the ordnance sprues may end up using a lot of space in the box so box may have to be enlarged

- high tooling wear: one cycle per kit is necessary inject a top wing sprue, four cycles per kit are necessary to provide four missiles

- long to inject because one part per sprue and mould parts movements

- sink marks if the parts are too thick; or let the sprue cool longer but then production rate is slower

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9 hours ago, Jonathan_Lotton said:


Oh goodness no Martin, not you or Sio at all!

I was referring to CheshireCat...

You've been stellar. 

 

Thank goodness. I thought that someone was now registered in here and pretending to be one of us.

Phew. Good to hear.

 

You know, we will always answer questions.

Edited by Martin @ AMK Models
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1 hour ago, Laurent said:

Lets take single-piece ordnance. This was introduced by GWH on the 1/48 MiG-29s. AMK made it stunning.

 

Fixed it for you :p

 

Quote

 

There are pros and cons to everything.

 

How very true.

 

Quote

 

Pros:

- no need to align the missile fins

- almost no seam when the mould parts are propely aligned

 

No need to glue to halves together

,', Little to no seam line to clean up (see below)

Little chance of misaligning the halves

Easier to paint on the sprue

They look awesome ++

Because it's possible

Better weight adds to better sit / look and feel for me at least

 

Quote

 

Cons:

- terrible steps if the mould parts aren't properly aligned (tooling wear)

Steps?

 

As long as the mold is engineered well and the machine taking the tools is of decent quality we don't have this issue.

We aim to make our tools some of the best in the business.

 

Quote

- plastic and in-box space waste and : each part has to have its own sprue, no mutualization of the sprue is possible; shipment cost of an individual box depends on the box size so the ordnance sprues may end up using a lot of space in the box so box may have to be enlarged

 

Plastic waste is minimal when making a model kit. In the grand scheme of things the "wastage" (which adds to the weight for a better sit on pylons to my eye) is negligible.

 

Quote

- high tooling wear: one cycle per kit is necessary inject a top wing sprue, four cycles per kit are necessary to provide four missiles

- long to inject because one part per sprue and mould parts movements

 

This is true but also depends on how the tool / mold is made. But when we own the factory and can leave the machine running all the time, it is actually an efficient use of the machine when the maths is done versus turning off each night.

 

Quote

- sink marks if the parts are too thick; or let the sprue cool longer but then production rate is slower

 

No sink marks.

 

Hope that helps.

 

I am sure that Sio will be able to chip in much more here. Once I get back from the factory and I have a better oversight of the process of the next it then I am willing to share much more from an even better perspective.

 

Happy to answer any more questions. If I can't, as I said, Sio probably will.

 

Edited by Martin @ AMK Models
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9 hours ago, andrew.deboer said:

 

Martin:

 

You are more than gracious. I don’t have an AMK F-14D on order, but the moment they become available I will. AMK have shown a lot of innovation with this and other models, and you should also be recognized for that. The slide-molded missiles are sublime. The wings are an answer to many modelers’ wishes. 

 

Do it right. Don’t sweat the impatient complaining of some. We are all eager to see this beast, so just stick to your process. 

 

And put out an F-21 version of your Kfir!

 

One-part missile is just a marketing stunt.

With conventionnal molding, you can make wings with the same thickness, take a look to the new Meng 1/48 Missiles sets.

And there's no innovation in this, GWH already did it, Kinetic already did it.

 

We're modellers, aren't we?

If a modeller isn't able to glue 2 pieces together, well modeling will become a tricky journey.

 

Another thing, the real problem.

One-piece missile/bomb takes a ridiculous amount of space, indivually.

Conventionnal molding is essentially 2D, reason why most model kits boxes have these distinctive flat wide proportions.

With use and abuse of one-piece missiles/bombs, you can't use flat wide boxes anymore or you've got to use considerably huge size flat wide boxes.

In the end, the customer got to pay a lot more for the shipment, directly or not.

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3 minutes ago, shion said:

 

One-piece missile/bomb takes a ridiculous amount of space, indivually.

Conventionnal molding is essentially 2D, reason why most model kits boxes have these distinctive flat wide proportions.

With use and abuse of one-piece missiles/bombs, you can't use flat wide boxes anymore or you've got to use considerably huge size flat wide boxes.

In the end, the customer got to pay a lot more for the shipment, directly or not.

 

I call BS. Name one kit with one-piece missiles that is in a box significantly bigger than the multi-piece competition.

 

Jon

 

Edited by jonbryon
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54 minutes ago, jonbryon said:

 

I call BS. Name one kit with one-piece missiles that is in a box significantly bigger than the multi-piece competition.

 

Jon

 

 

Hmmm... 4 of GWH’s AIM-7s and their blister pack which come with their F-15B/D kit occupies as much space as 3 of Kinetic’s genetic weapon sprues. Each of those sprues has two AIM-120s, two AIM-9s, one GBU-12, one CBU-87 and one Mk.82 slick plus a bunch of launchers. 

 

Mark

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1 hour ago, jonbryon said:

 

I call BS. Name one kit with one-piece missiles that is in a box significantly bigger than the multi-piece competition.

 

Jon

 

 

No, it's geometry.

 

These are Hasegawa sprues for the boxing named Aircraft Weapons E U.S. AAM & Target Pod

 

10135346z3.jpg

 

They are the content of a 29.2 x 21.1 x 5.2 cm box.

 

Now, go ask AMK  which and how many single-piece missiles they can put in the same space.

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*sigh* 

 

You both miss the point. It has had no effect on box size and AMK don't supply fewer items of ordnance than anyone else.

 

E.g. Kinetic Kfir and AMK Kfir are in comparably sized boxes, but only the latter includes one-piece bombs and missiles. In fact, owing to a manufacturing error, the AMK kit has double the number of intended iron bombs.

 

You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.

 

I realise the discussion may have shifted to weapons sets, but that's also specious, unless you're going to complain about the packaging size of comparable quantities of other aftermarket weapons sets from people like Eduard. Weapons are optional (I almost never use them) and if you're buying stuff additional to the basic aircraft kit, you pay your money and you make your choice. When it comes to actually buying aircraft kits with ordnance included, however, AMK's approach makes absolutely no difference.

 

Jon

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Of course it has an effect on box size.

The more space you need, the thicker the box become.

So, 3 solutions for manufacturer:

A- give less.

B- choose a bigger box.

C- fill it as much it's possible.

 

It's the reason why Kinetic give less missile pylons in their Su-33.

It's one reason why GWH F-15 boxes are 20% bigger than Hasegawa ones.

 

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Rubbish!

 

img_0039.jpg?w=1000

 

AMK Kfir: 18 Mk 82 bombs, 4 Python-3, 4 GBU-12, 4 Griffon

Kinetic Kfir: 2 Pythons, 2 LGBs

Kinetic has a much bigger box...

 

Hasegawa F-15 has 4 Sparrow and 4 Sidewinders. GMH F-15 has 4 AMRAAM and 2 Sidewinders on tiny sprues. The box size difference is clearly due to the GMH F-15 having its wings tooled together with the fuselage. You could easily put several one-piece missiles in a Hasegawa box, no problem.

 

AMK MiG-31: 40.2 x 27.4 x 10.8 cm = 11,896cm3 - 4 R-33, 4 R-60, 2 R-40

Hobby Boss MiG-31: 53.7 x 31.5 x 8.5 cm = 14,378cm3 - 4 R-33, 4 R-60, 4 R-40

Hobby Boss have a 21% larger box for an additional 2 missiles.

 

The Kinetic Su-33 is a function of how they chose to package the missiles, not the size of the sprues themselves. It's easy to see that if they dispensed with the cardboard inner packaging, a few more missiles could easily have been included, and with no risk of damage. AMK have taken a different approach (stackable sprues).

 

This issue is a giant red herring. If I modelled ordnance, I'd be over the moon at what AMK/GWH/Kinetic have done.

 

Jon

 

 

Edited by jonbryon
Got name of GWH wrong!
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3 hours ago, jonbryon said:

 

I call BS. Name one kit with one-piece missiles that is in a box significantly bigger than the multi-piece competition.

 

Jon

 

 

Word!......Revell of Germany boxes come to mind.

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1 hour ago, shion said:

 

No, it's geometry.

 

These are Hasegawa sprues for the boxing named Aircraft Weapons E U.S. AAM & Target Pod

 

10135346z3.jpg

 

They are the content of a 29.2 x 21.1 x 5.2 cm box.

 

Now, go ask AMK  which and how many single-piece missiles they can put in the same space.

 

In 1/48:

 

72 Mk 82 bombs. This is more than comparable to what Hasegawa give you in Weapons Set A. (A stack of 6 AMK one-piece Mk.82 bombs is 6.5 x 6.5 x 4cm.)

 

Or 48 Python-3s (8 x 4.5 x 4cm).

 

Or 48 GBU-12s (9 x 5.5 x 4cm) - Hasegawa give you 20 GBUs + some other small stuff in Weapons Set D.

 

These are conservative, because they assume individual packages of 6 (for the dumb bombs) and 4 (for the other two). In reality, they could be stacked for greater packing efficiency.

 

Clearly I have too much time on my hands today...

 

Jon

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, gb_madcat_sl said:

 

Hmmm... 4 of GWH’s AIM-7s and their blister pack which come with their F-15B/D kit occupies as much space as 3 of Kinetic’s genetic weapon sprues. Each of those sprues has two AIM-120s, two AIM-9s, one GBU-12, one CBU-87 and one Mk.82 slick plus a bunch of launchers. 

 

Mark

 

Leaving aside the fact that the blister packs are not necessary (see AMK's approach), I find the above really hard to believe. Can you post photos and dimensions?

 

Jon

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Holy thread pollution, Batman! 

 

In in other news, Tamiya will release a 1/48 F-14D Tomcat later this year, much hotter on the heels of their F-14A than most dared to hope, given their lack of follow-on variants after their brilliant F-16C.

 

No word yet on the size of the box it will come in... and nobody cares anyway.

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