Darren Roberts Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Here are some things to keep in mind about all of this. 1. We really don't know how long the Tamiya Tomcat was in development. They keep info close to the vest to avoid the exact thing that happened to AMK. 2, AMK has stated they are NOT trying to beat the big boys. A comparison would be people saying I (Steel Beach) want to better than Aires or Eduard. That's not the case. AMK simply wants to be the best they can be. 3. AMK seemed excited to announce the Tomcat and generate excitement and enthusiasm...and it came back and bit them. They would have been better served to announce it when everything was just about ready to go and surprise everyone. They didn't do that, but in the grand scheme of things, is it really that big a deal that we have to wait? We, as modelers, are owed nothing by the manufacturers. The only time that would occur is if we invested significant funds into the development of a kit. One would hope the manufacturers would listen to their buyers, and we've seen that both happening and not (I'm looking at you, Kittyhawk F2H-2 Banshee!). The bottom line is AMK probably mishandled the development and PR of this kit, but it's refreshing to see a company excited about their product. I can live with waiting a little longer for the Tomcat to come out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shion Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Sorry Darren, but the 3 facts you present are false. I will simply discuss here the main one. You said: Quote AMK has stated they are NOT trying to beat the big boys. A comparison would be people saying I (Steel Beach) want to better than Aires or Eduard. That's not the case. AMK simply wants to be the best they can be. Do you remember the failed Indiegogo Campaign, promoted by AMK to finance the Tomcat release in December 2017? Take a look at the abstract: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/amk-88007-f-14d-super-tomcat-preorder#/ Quote We are a ragtag collection of talented Macau, British and Chinese engineers, marketeers, designers and manufacturers but most of all we are modellers and good mates despite the distance. Our story is to be able to finance the time we need to create the world’s best ever model kit of the F-14 Tomcat in 1/48 scale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Some folks indeed come across as sounding whiny and perhaps a tad petulant in their posts. But many others here have posted justifiable concerns and valid criticisms of AMK's handling of this project in my opinion. I also think some of these folks are actually pulling for AMK and want the kit released ASAP to help keep the company afloat (AMK reps have already alluded to money issues and openly admitted to needing to sell 10,000 copies of this kit alone to break even on this project...and Tamiya's kit is already out/already selling and slowly eating into that needed AMK sales figure). Some of us remember Accurate Miniatures and the similarities between them and AMK are striking...and sadly we all know what happened to Accurate Miniatures. I think time is indeed of the essence for this kit to be released. Not for me, not for any modeler...we all have more then enough projects to keep us busy. But with the Tamiya kit out and selling and with needed funds and sales for AMK (according to them) AMK can't afford (no pun intended) to drag this project out indefinitely. I don't need their F-14 kit now or ever but I want AMK to succeed because I like the kits of theirs that I have built. I just don't think that time is on their side at this stage in the game with the competitions product already out and already selling. Hey, just my two cents, my thoughts, my opinion. Enjoy the weekend and happy modeling! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) For me, it's about the kit. I hope it ships before I shuffle off this mortal coil. I otherwise have no stake in this and can only shake my head at of all you who are hating on AMK for taking so long. Everyone one of you has more important things upon which to focus. Edited July 21, 2018 by Slartibartfast Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 4 hours ago, shion said: Sorry Darren, but the 3 facts you present are false. I will simply discuss here the main one. You said: Do you remember the failed Indiegogo Campaign, promoted by AMK to finance the Tomcat release in December 2017? Take a look at the abstract: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/amk-88007-f-14d-super-tomcat-preorder#/ In regards to what you addressed, I'm simply going by what Sio said in a post that directly related to "competition". He stated that they aren't trying to beat Tamiya and that they look up to Tamiya as a company they want to strive towards being like. Saying you want to produce the best Tomcat kit is not the same as saying you want to be Tamiya. As to the other two things, could you say why they are false? In the long run, this whole kerfuffle is really insignificant. I'm looking forward to seeing what the kit looks like when it finally comes out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 I'm looking forward to picking on that Steel Beach dude when he makes 50 sets of a resin improvement set for the kit, and sells out, and then takes toooooo long to make more of them. (just kidding,,,,,,but, I do wish I could grab him by the ear and drag him into 1/72 scale for about 20 items, then send him back to 1/48 land) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shion Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Darren Roberts said: In regards to what you addressed, I'm simply going by what Sio said in a post that directly related to "competition". He stated that they aren't trying to beat Tamiya and that they look up to Tamiya as a company they want to strive towards being like. Saying you want to produce the best Tomcat kit is not the same as saying you want to be Tamiya. As to the other two things, could you say why they are false? In the long run, this whole kerfuffle is really insignificant. I'm looking forward to seeing what the kit looks like when it finally comes out. You've got to remember that the Indiegogo fiasco took place in 2017. Tamiya F-14A was already released. So we already knew and they already knew Tamiya made a Tomcat. So when they talked about -and I quote- "the world’s best ever model kit of the F-14 Tomcat in 1/48 scale", it supposed to imply that they consider to be able to make a better Tomcat than Tamiya. All the talks afterward, it's just damage control. We already said it, AMK PR are very bad, and it's not a guess, it's a fact. Edited July 21, 2018 by shion Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 geez, this just goes in circles How do any of us know, today, without the plastic,,,,that it isn't going to be the "best tomcat in 1/48 scale?" It is supposed to already have features that are Required to be on a model if that model is going to have the wings swept forward, and the other guy's don't have them. Panel line size (or even the presence of them) or raised or recessed, doesn't matter at all,,,,,because no matter which way they choose to do them, light, heavy, deep, shallow,,,,,is going to be "wrong" for 50% of the modelers that buy the kit,,,,,,so that doesn't enter in it. (remember, this is a 50/50 world now, meaning that half of any group is going to be able to find "extremely incorrect" things wrong with any kit or any comment made by anyone else) I'm still waiting to be told exactly, by someone in the know, how long a kit is supposed to take to create. Until we know that, there is just no basis at all for all the comments that it is taking too long. For instance, no one knows the date of the meeting at Tamiya that launched their Tomcat model project,,,,and how long it took them from then to boxes on the shelves. And if AMK didn't post online, and let people talk to them about the aircraft and details, and got some one thing wrong,,,,,,,,,then the howling starts (see the F2H-2 kit threads),,,,,,if they do talk about it, change things according to public advice, then the howling goes on about how long it takes. (see? it is lose-lose,,,,,for a hobby company selling a model kit) (by the way, each detail that needs changing adds time to the project,,see the box art discussion above) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Rex said: I'm looking forward to picking on that Steel Beach dude when he makes 50 sets of a resin improvement set for the kit, and sells out, and then takes toooooo long to make more of them. (just kidding,,,,,,but, I do wish I could grab him by the ear and drag him into 1/72 scale for about 20 items, then send him back to 1/48 land) I've already picked on him! I told him to get his rear in gear and get going on casting, but he just doesn't seem to listen to me. 😊 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Good, now go after that Hangar Deck guy, lol. That guy is so busy, and so distracted, that he walked out to the truck with his magnifier still over his eyes. (there's a mental image for ya) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 32 minutes ago, Rex said: how long a kit is supposed to take to create. I depends... : - is reference material complete before the design starts or does material trickle down while the design is being made, or worst, while the tooling is being made ? - is the CAD designer efficient ? - is there a validation process to debug the CAD model during its design or not ? if so few designer man-days are wasted - does the toolshop have enough CNC and EDM machines to be able to work in parallel in order to increase speed of tooling phase ? are some of those machines used for other ongoing projects (tooling phase will then be longer) ? - does the producer own his toolshop or does he use a subcontractor to do the tooling ? if the later, does the subcontractor deliver on schedule and complies to agreed quality ? does the producer comply to the agreed payment schedule to the subcontractor ? - does the photo-etch producer deliver at the agreed date ? - do the decal sheet and box art designer deliver at the agreed date ? - do the printers deliver the box top, instructions and decal sheet at the agreed date ? You end up with an unbounded interval... I'd say [9 months if research already done and ressources are available, +∞ (kit never released)[ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Good, Laurent. So, just about the same length of time it takes to write and illustrate a book? Darren, heck, I'm not behind at all, I am just about right on schedule for producing 20 1/72 masters, writing that book and finding illustrations for it, building the 300 models, singing 3 or 4 shows a week,,,,,,and building 4 1/1 scale Clevelands and a sixties style 427. (I am behind on repairing Anne's truck topper's leaky plexiglass window, though) All of those show what timeline could be involved in getting a kit from first idea to boxes on the shelves,,,,if they are other kits involved (Tamiya), or other jobs involved (AMK.) 9 months to infinity seems about right to me. (and the Tamiya F-14A kit took long enough that the word Vaporware got thrown around) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tony.t Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 37 months and 96 pages. What a saga. I wish AMK well but at least Tomcat fans had Tamiya to stop them going mad. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madcop Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 On 7/22/2018 at 12:02 AM, tony.t said: 37 months and 96 pages. What a saga. I wish AMK well but at least Tomcat fans had Tamiya to stop them going mad. Tony Hi Tony I chose the AMK kit...I paid for it in June 2017. I knew the AMK boys would produce it when they had free times , so as to not interfere with their other productions. I am still waiting … I was warned...So, no problem for me. I won't buy the Tamiya kit, so simple as that (or so simple as the Tamiya kit is…). AMK are fellow modellers, making kits as a hobby for modellers, not looking for profit , but just looking for not loosing money, what I can easily understand. So I can still wait for months , I do not care as far as I knew what I was doing … There is no point about going mad for a heap of plastic ! Madcop Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shion Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, madcop said: AMK are fellow modellers, making kits as a hobby for modellers, not looking for profit , but just looking for not loosing money, what I can easily understand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
seawinder Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 6 hours ago, madcop said: AMK are fellow modellers, making kits as a hobby for modellers, not looking for profit , but just looking for not loosing money, what I can easily understand. AMK is a non-profit?! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) Think of them about the same as Steel Beach, or any of the decal companies who's owners have day jobs. They aren't "non-profit" (ie: Charities), but, they aren't in it to make a living at it. (geez, I hope they aren't trying to put food on the table by releasing a new decal sheet 2 or 3 times a year) So, yeah, breaking even, or making $100 more* than it all cost them is the target amount. Almost all of the hobby producers and authors are trying to make just enough to be able to create and release the next product. *that number varies by individual, but, paying the mortgage and gassing up the car is not the goal amount (one creates a small fortune in the model hobby biz by starting with a large fortune) Edited July 23, 2018 by Rex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 But I don't think they're in it to take a financial loss either. At least I hope not! They won't be around long if that's the case. According to AMK they need to sell 10,000 kits to break even and last we heard from them they were around 3,000-3,500 pre-orders after 1+ years of beating the bushes for pre-orders. This was before Tamiya's F-14D started hitting shelves around the globe. I have one AMK on pre-order (I was going to do two but went with Tamiya when they announced their F-14D). I hope it all works out for them... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I'm rooting for them too. Probably should be a different thread, but, I am rooting for all genre's of modeling, in all scales, to succeed. Even though this is 1/48, and I build 1/72, and I really will never need another Tomcat model or decal sheet, I am right there rooting for this to happen. That is because we need healthy, active, producers in any scale to keep going,,,,even if it is just so that we can continue to buy paints, cement and books. And who knows, some "We are dedicated to 1/48, or 1/32" company might just pop out products in 1/72 Navair that benefits my tiny niche of modeling heaven. (it has happened now and then) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RKic Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) Man, I'd hate to be a model manufacturer in this kind of environment. Like Rex said, no matter what you do, half the crowd is going to think its wrong. I miss the pre-internet days when that type of person would mind their P's and Q's; because getting too impassioned and worked up about the objects of their fandom, would lead to public ridicule or a good wholloping upside the head. Edited July 23, 2018 by RKic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shion Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Guys, I don't know what you're trying to do. We'd already discuss about this: AMK is a mold making and injection molding company. They used to inject plastic products (included model kits) for others compagnies, they decided to make their own. So all this stuff, saying it's a non-profit association or saying they've other day jobs, it's just wrong, worst this kind of fallacy may cause bad buzz about them. If you're a profit company, it's a bad idea to explain your customers you're a non-profit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 29 minutes ago, RKic said: I miss the pre-internet days when that type of person would mind their P's and Q's; because getting too impassioned and worked up about the objects of their fandom, would lead to public ridicule or a good wholloping upside the head. I don't miss these at all. As many things the internet is a two-edged sword. The amount of freely accessible factual information exploded and this greatly helps the research and documentation phase of a kit project. At the same time, anybody can say anything to anyone, express more or less constructed opinions. Signal (facts) comes with noise. It's true in electronics, it's true with the internet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Not trying "to do anything" at all. I'll give the ole towel a fling onto the court now,,,,,but, not without first saying,,,,,,okay,,,go ahead, bash away at them for not getting a kit done as fast as Tamiya (which might not even be true, non of the bashers even know the timelines for both companies) And you have it wrong,,,,,,if a company says that they have to put the new kit into an open place between projects being molded for other companies,,,,then, they do indeed have "day jobs." Working for others and slipping your own projects into open time is one way of defining whether a company is a side job or full time. (scroll up, and you will read it) I'll take my much smaller (less equal pig) opinion out of here now, and let the thread go back to what it was before we tried to inject some fairness into it. (maybe even adopt the popular 1/48 scale modeler opinion that "it ain't my scale, let it die off." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mstor Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Laurent said: I don't miss these at all. As many things the internet is a two-edged sword. The amount of freely accessible factual information exploded and this greatly helps the research and documentation phase of a kit project. At the same time, anybody can say anything to anyone, express more or less constructed opinions. Signal (facts) comes with noise. It's true in electronics, it's true with the internet. Well said Sir. This is what I call Wisdom. Take heed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
305swag Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 On July 23, 2018 at 5:16 AM, madcop said: Hi Tony I chose the AMK kit...I paid for it in June 2017. I knew the AMK boys would produce it when they had free times , so as to not interfere with their other productions. I am still waiting … I was warned...So, no problem for me. I won't buy the Tamiya kit, so simple as that (or so simple as the Tamiya kit is…). AMK are fellow modellers, making kits as a hobby for modellers, not looking for profit , but just looking for not loosing money, what I can easily understand. So I can still wait for months , I do not care as far as I knew what I was doing … There is no point about going mad for a heap of plastic ! Madcop You chiefin' bro😎 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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