Jump to content

Recommended Posts

57 minutes ago, habu2 said:

 

While I agree any modeler would prefer a Very Accurate Model, I seriously doubt that will be achieved by a bunch of ARC Tomcat fanboys scouring the internet for photos and drawings and here-say that might prove or disprove someone's otherwise uninformed opinion and ranting about Every Little Detail, real or imagined, on an unreleased kit.

 

The US Navy Tomcats were retired twelve years ago, so unless you're in Iran, no one has seen one fly in well over a decade.  While there are several in museums, I would venture some of the "shape experts" in this thread have never even laid eyes on a 1:1 scale Grumman F-14.  Yes, there are folks here with real experience with this jet - but you don't see them judging and criticizing AMK  in this thread.  Me? I haven't seen or touched a real F-14 since... let me see... last Tuesday I think it was.  BuNo 160889

 

This thread specifically, and the many threads like it in this subforum, have made visiting here almost unbearable.  ARC should change its name to Armchair Ranters and Criticizers. If some of you put as much thought and effort into choosing a spouse (a much more serious task) as you do into nit-picking and spouting jpeg-based opinions about unreleased, unseen, and untouched kits... well, you must be very lonely.  When do you ever find time to actually build anything?

 

And yes, I realize the irony of ranting and criticizing about people ranting and criticizing.  It's contagious I guess.

 

So sad.....

I understand your frustration habu 2. I see it like this. Everyone has their passion about certain subject matter. It's easy to get ramped up when your specific kit of interest seems to have some inaccuracy. With that said, some of the posts on here aren't really about the kit itself, but about AMK. Some here seem to have taken it personally that AMK hasn't kept it's time schedule of release. Could AMK have handled the PR a bit better? Possibly. But some of the posts I've read have a very personal attack feel to them. This is what lends itself to the whole "rivet counter" mentality being a negative one. If you get your enjoyment from the hobby from accuracy, that's absolutely fantastic. But I've never understood why someone would cancel an order or not even buy the kit because of a very small inaccuracy, which may or may not even be there since the kit isn't out. Let me state that the Tamiya kit is NOT the ultimate Tomcat. Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful kit and I've built five and have two more on-deck. But there are some obvious short-cuts Tamiya took in their kit, namely the cockpit and wheel bays. I dare say the Hobbyboss cockpit is better than the Tamiya. So, this comes right back around to no kit being perfect. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Mstor said:

 

Yes, exactly. Been waiting on decals fitted to the Tamiya kit. I think the new DXM set will work out. Had been hoping Fightertown would update theirs (hint, hint).

I think the Tamiya kit is too late for the Saigon fly by. I know there differences, but just how much I don't know.

Garry

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Darren Roberts said:

I understand your frustration habu 2. I see it like this. Everyone has their passion about certain subject matter. It's easy to get ramped up when your specific kit of interest seems to have some inaccuracy. With that said, some of the posts on here aren't really about the kit itself, but about AMK. Some here seem to have taken it personally that AMK hasn't kept it's time schedule of release. Could AMK have handled the PR a bit better? Possibly. But some of the posts I've read have a very personal attack feel to them. This is what lends itself to the whole "rivet counter" mentality being a negative one. If you get your enjoyment from the hobby from accuracy, that's absolutely fantastic. But I've never understood why someone would cancel an order or not even buy the kit because of a very small inaccuracy, which may or may not even be there since the kit isn't out. Let me state that the Tamiya kit is NOT the ultimate Tomcat. Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful kit and I've built five and have two more on-deck. But there are some obvious short-cuts Tamiya took in their kit, namely the cockpit and wheel bays. I dare say the Hobbyboss cockpit is better than the Tamiya. So, this comes right back around to no kit being perfect. 

I hope you realize what you've done!!! Fan boys are leaping off three story buildings left and right. 

Gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, habu2 said:

 

While I agree any modeler would prefer a Very Accurate Model, I seriously doubt that will be achieved by a bunch of ARC Tomcat fanboys scouring the internet for photos and drawings and here-say that might prove or disprove someone's otherwise uninformed opinion and ranting about Every Little Detail, real or imagined, on an unreleased kit.

 

The US Navy Tomcats were retired twelve years ago, so unless you're in Iran, no one has seen one fly in well over a decade.  While there are several in museums, I would venture some of the "shape experts" in this thread have never even laid eyes on a 1:1 scale Grumman F-14.  Yes, there are folks here with real experience with this jet - but you don't see them judging and criticizing AMK  in this thread.  Me? I haven't seen or touched a real F-14 since... let me see... last Tuesday I think it was.  BuNo 160889

 

This thread specifically, and the many threads like it in this subforum, have made visiting here almost unbearable.  ARC should change its name to Armchair Ranters and Criticizers. If some of you put as much thought and effort into choosing a spouse (a much more serious task) as you do into nit-picking and spouting jpeg-based opinions about unreleased, unseen, and untouched kits... well, you must be very lonely.  When do you ever find time to actually build anything?

 

And yes, I realize the irony of ranting and criticizing about people ranting and criticizing.  It's contagious I guess.

 

So sad.....

VlArQpi.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, habu2 said:

While I agree any modeler would prefer a Very Accurate Model, I seriously doubt that will be achieved by a bunch of ARC Tomcat fanboys scouring the internet for photos and drawings and here-say that might prove or disprove someone's otherwise uninformed opinion and ranting about Every Little Detail, real or imagined, on an unreleased kit.

 

You'd be surprised at how many forum members have been approached by various model companies to help them develop more accurate kits.

 

1 hour ago, habu2 said:

The US Navy Tomcats were retired twelve years ago, so unless you're in Iran, no one has seen one fly in well over a decade.  While there are several in museums, I would venture some of the "shape experts" in this thread have never even laid eyes on a 1:1 scale Grumman F-14.  Yes, there are folks here with real experience with this jet - but you don't see them judging and criticizing AMK  in this thread.  Me? I haven't seen or touched a real F-14 since... let me see... last Tuesday I think it was.  BuNo 160889

 

I've never seen or been anywhere near an Su-27, Su-33 or MiG-23. I saw a MiG-29 at an airshow years ago. I've only seen Tomcats, A-7s and Broncos in museums. Yet...

 

I've had pilots, mechanics, ordies, etc. comment that they weren't aware of how far off a particular kit was until it was pointed out to them or purchased aftermarket that corrected the problem.

 

1 hour ago, habu2 said:

And yes, I realize the irony of ranting and criticizing about people ranting and criticizing.  It's contagious I guess.

 

I used to post a lot here at ARC. I pretty much quit out of frustration seeing people get shouted down for pointing out issues with CADs, test-shots, test builds or final kits. It's as if they are saying to shut up and accept whatever the kit manufacturers give us. I've never seen any of those people go to the in-progress threads and tell modelers to quit improving or correcting the kits they're working on.

 

The way I see it is that errors pointed out alert the manufacturers so they can choose to fix them, or not. I've seen companies modify their CAD models after details were pointed out on forums. Some have even re-tooled (at great expense) to make corrections.

The critiques  also educate the builders so they can choose whether to buy the kit and whether to make the corrections themselves.

 

It's a modeling discussion forum, where we discuss models...

 

:cheers:

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, habu2 said:

 

While I agree any modeler would prefer a Very Accurate Model, I seriously doubt that will be achieved by a bunch of ARC Tomcat fanboys scouring the internet for photos and drawings and here-say that might prove or disprove someone's otherwise uninformed opinion and ranting about Every Little Detail, real or imagined, on an unreleased kit.

 

The US Navy Tomcats were retired twelve years ago, so unless you're in Iran, no one has seen one fly in well over a decade.  While there are several in museums, I would venture some of the "shape experts" in this thread have never even laid eyes on a 1:1 scale Grumman F-14.  Yes, there are folks here with real experience with this jet - but you don't see them judging and criticizing AMK  in this thread.  Me? I haven't seen or touched a real F-14 since... let me see... last Tuesday I think it was.  BuNo 160889

 

This thread specifically, and the many threads like it in this subforum, have made visiting here almost unbearable.  ARC should change its name to Armchair Ranters and Criticizers. If some of you put as much thought and effort into choosing a spouse (a much more serious task) as you do into nit-picking and spouting jpeg-based opinions about unreleased, unseen, and untouched kits... well, you must be very lonely.  When do you ever find time to actually build anything?

 

And yes, I realize the irony of ranting and criticizing about people ranting and criticizing.  It's contagious I guess.

 

So sad.....

 

I have no skin in the game, but what do you hope people did here? The options are:

 

- Sit on your hands and wait until AMK releases the kit: That means only AMK updates this thread. Everyone else remains a spectator, and we end up having a final product that could have been better. 

 

- With each update from AMK, have people rejoice all over this thread: 3 years is a reaaaallly long time to keep people upbeat. Again, nothing gets scrutinized. 

 

- Have people deliberate what is put out: This is what is natural and expected in a forum. People here are stakeholders. As long as companies decide to expose their development to the public, they can expect nothing but this type of scrutiny. In fact, I bet 100% companies doing this *want* this type of scrutiny. They couldn't care less if comes from an expert or an armchair ranter who happens to have a sharp eye on the details. If the critique is wrong, it would be proven wrong, end of discussion. 

 

Think about it, if preproduction kit critique (regardless what info it is based on) was so harmful to the company's bottomline, they would simply stop engaging us.  

 

And if you in fact look carefully, none of the people who have brought up a shape issue pretend to be a subject expert. People actually go a long way making this clear. Nearly all state their cases with humility, perhaps except a few cases where ESL may be a factor in conveying thoughts. At the end of the day, what is going on in these threads is natural, is expected, and is useful to the company. I am not singling AMK out, it is true for any company that posts pictures on their FB pages or wherever. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ChesshireCat said:

I think the Tamiya kit is too late for the Saigon fly by. I know there differences, but just how much I don't know.

Garry

 

I used the early boat-tail and gun vents from the old Hasegawa kit that includes them. They needed some modification, but it worked out decently enough for me. It "looks" like an early F-14A now.

Edited by Mstor
Link to post
Share on other sites

Great post, Janissary.

 

Those are the options for forums and the companies that post their products in the pre-production stages.

 

I will add one line to your summary, though.

 

"Who does it hurt to discuss details?"

 

If an accuracy discussion is going on,,,,,,,why does anyone that claims not to care about such things even bother to weigh in at all? Unless a person is on some weird "I want all models to look like 1959 Hawk releases" sort of kick,,,,,,how does a modeler ever get hurt by discussing the details? The model buyer is free to ignore or use all the free info that gets posted, or to use some of it, and ignore other parts.

 

Everyone's time is valuable,,,and how some people use it is completely up to them. Some of us actually enjoy diving into the details, even if it is for parts that won't be seen when the model is on the shelf. 

 

(note, I know the climate today, so I will be clear and point out that I didn't say that anyone should not post in a thread)

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's been a lot of interesting posts about the numerous posts by me and others dealing with accuracy issues in the AMK F-14D. I want to apologize for my persistent and numerous posts. It is mainly because I felt I was not adequately expressing the information I wanted to convey. It is my problem, and I wish I was better at expressing myself. If I irritated or aggravated anyone, I am sorry.

That said, I am not an F-14 fan boy. I like the F-14 but mainly the A version because of its colorful schemes. AMK is releasing a D version that they have put forward as an extremely detailed and accurate representation of the actual aircraft. When one sees what one thinks is a problem with the accuracy of some detail, I find it interesting to point this out and get a response from the manufacturer. Some problems have been pointed out and discussed (in extreme) but we are still waiting to hear from AMK. I am hoping that the issues I and others have pointed out will either be something that doesn't really exist (problem with the photos) or something that they are now aware of and addressing (or not).

'nuf said.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, habu2 said:

ARC should change its name to Armchair Ranters and Criticizers. If some of you put as much thought and effort into choosing a spouse (a much more serious task) as you do into nit-picking and spouting jpeg-based opinions about unreleased, unseen, and untouched kits... well, you must be very lonely.  When do you ever find time to actually build anything?

Some members of the ARC (your definition)'s crowd may end up being contributors to the development of model kits. The SUAB (Shut Up And Build) crowd will never be.

 

39 minutes ago, Mstor said:

Some problems have been pointed out and discussed (in extreme) but we are still waiting to hear from AMK. I am hoping that the issues I and others have pointed out will either be something that doesn't really exist (problem with the photos) or something that they are now aware of and addressing (or not).

'nuf said.

Such discussions can be useful to the producer during the design phase, not so much when the tooling has been done. I wouldn't expect a reaction from AMK.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This seems to be happening every single time when a new kit of some famous aircraft is released. 

 

I do understand that some people don''t care about missing smaller details or minor (or bigger) shape inaccuracies. I'm one of those who do care and like to read and discuss about them. I also have to say that since we are in a business of scale modeling, the accuracy issue is one very important part of it. I mean who can argue? 

 

Still, it really doesn't bother me that much if the just-shut-up-and- build-it people have their say on these threads. Please go ahead but please keep in mind that if you don't care about accuracy, why even read these threads at all? If the announcement of some new kit is enough for you and you really don't care what you will be getting why should you read any further at all? 

 

I don't understand these comments where people say "yeah, this is exactly why I don't post here that much anymore". Both sides seem to use this phrase. So what! I've never been insulted by these discussions or by some people here. This can't be so good damn serious!

 

A great discussion, gentlemen! I do enjoy this. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems this has come around once again to the age-old disagreement between the "rivet counters" and "shut and build it" groups. Here's how the usual discussion proceeds:

 

SUAB: Did you hear that they released a new Farley Fruitbat? Finally! I've wanted one for years now.

RC: I hope they got the ventral doohickey vent under the left starboard winglet correct.

SUAB: They just released pictures of test shots.

RC: I just looked at the pictures. What a POS. The ventral doohickey vent is totally butchered. It's a clear 3mm too far forward. Not only that, but the transfluxer is a complete joke. I mean, what company could screw that up? It's obvious they didn't do their research. It's there for all to see! Into the bin this crap goes!

SUAB: You sound like a Star Trek geek. Who cares what's wrong with it. Just be happy a company actually produced a Farley Fruitbat. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Just don't complain about it.

 

I contend that the above is the wrong way to go about a discussion. The hyperbole from both groups needs to stop. For those who enjoy accuracy, having someone knowledgable about a subject is a wonderful thing. However, the information needs to be stated in a dispassionate manner. For those who enjoy the subject matter regardless of inaccuracies, be willing to listen to those who are knowledgable and appreciate the fact they can contribute to your knowledge base. 

 

Here's how I think the above conversation could (and should) happen:

 

SUAB: Did you hear that they released a new Farley Fruitbat? Finally! I've wanted one for years now.

RC: Interesting. I know a bit about this subject. Have pictures been posted yet?

SUAB: Yes they have.

RC: I took a look. It appears the ventral doohickey vent under the starboard winglet might be misplaced, but not by much. Maybe 3mm or so. You might also be interested to know that the transfluxer seems to be from the Mk. 1, while this is a Mk. 3. It's a small difference, but it's noticeable if you're familiar with the subject.

SUAB: Thanks for the info. The ventral doohickey vent doesn't bother me too much. I didn't know about the transfluxer. Is there a way to fix it?

RC: If you cut off 2mm from the back end, that should get you close. Or you could ask that guy at Steel Beach to do a resin piece, but he's a slacker and never gets anything done.

 

Silly? Maybe. But it's a whole lot more civil than some of the discussions I've seen over the years about plastic toys. The way the world is today, we need all the civility we can get.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/12/2018 at 6:23 AM, Mstor said:

There's been a lot of interesting posts about the numerous posts by me and others dealing with accuracy issues in the AMK F-14D. I want to apologize for my persistent and numerous posts. It is mainly because I felt I was not adequately expressing the information I wanted to convey. It is my problem, and I wish I was better at expressing myself. If I irritated or aggravated anyone, I am sorry.

That said, I am not an F-14 fan boy. I like the F-14 but mainly the A version because of its colorful schemes. AMK is releasing a D version that they have put forward as an extremely detailed and accurate representation of the actual aircraft. When one sees what one thinks is a problem with the accuracy of some detail, I find it interesting to point this out and get a response from the manufacturer. Some problems have been pointed out and discussed (in extreme) but we are still waiting to hear from AMK. I am hoping that the issues I and others have pointed out will either be something that doesn't really exist (problem with the photos) or something that they are now aware of and addressing (or not).

'nuf said.

 

Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do.

I was under the impression that apologies per definition should not be qualified or followed by a self justification.

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, janman said:

This seems to be happening every single time when a new kit of some famous aircraft is released. 

 

I do understand that some people don''t care about missing smaller details or minor (or bigger) shape inaccuracies. I'm one of those who do care and like to read and discuss about them. I also have to say that since we are in a business of scale modeling, the accuracy issue is one very important part of it. I mean who can argue? 

 

Still, it really doesn't bother me that much if the just-shut-up-and- build-it people have their say on these threads. Please go ahead but please keep in mind that if you don't care about accuracy, why even read these threads at all? If the announcement of some new kit is enough for you and you really don't care what you will be getting why should you read any further at all? 

 

I don't understand these comments where people say "yeah, this is exactly why I don't post here that much anymore". Both sides seem to use this phrase. So what! I've never been insulted by these discussions or by some people here. This can't be so good damn serious!

 

A great discussion, gentlemen! I do enjoy this. 

 

 

If I may, I reckon the shut up and build people appreciate accuracy also - they're just not totally anal about it.

 

Guess I've made two new friends this morning.

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, serendip said:

If I may, I reckon the shut up and build people appreciate accuracy also - they're just not totally anal about it.

The SUABs are often very vocal when stating they are Right while RC's are Wrong and that they should get a life.

 

I believe there's an actual split between the SUABs and the RCs because their approach to scale modelling is different. The SUABs are more Miniaturists when RCs are more Modelists.

A Miniaturist perceives scale modelling as some kind of art. He enjoys building kits, painting and weathering them but the subject doesn't really matter. It could be tractors, figurines. He'll buy scale modelling magazines to admire builds and improve his technics.

The subject matters for the Modelist. The shapes shoud be ok, the model must depicts the features of the specific version of the subject, the amount of weathering should be realistic, etc. 

A non-F-14 example. Some photos of the AFV Club 1/48 U-2 have been posted. The Miniaturist will see a nicely detailed kit. The Modelist will see the base of the windscreen and wonder if it could be fixed without an aftermarket part.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...