habu2 Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 42 minutes ago, Mstor said: I see Picard joined the Bosley Hair Club... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, habu2 said: Yeah but neurosurgeons typically have a LOT more disposable income.... Someday I hope to have a kit stash worthy of a neurosurgeon. You and me both, brother! Wouldn't that be fun? I'm doing the whole Dave Ramsey thing right now, so maybe in a few years I'll be at that level. Wait...two kids going to college and I'm a teacher. Nope, not going to happen. 😊 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
seawinder Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 52 minutes ago, Mstor said: I'm sorry Darren. While I agree that those who "worry" about accuracy and those that don't are free to discuss and comment ad nauseam, I for one don't consider these kits toys. To the uninitiated they may seem that way but to me, and I think others, it is closer to a craft. Almost an art form for some. Calling it simply a toy demeans these little treasures of ours. And as far as a measurable impact on ones life, I'm sorry to say that it certainly has had one on mine. I have spent hours and hours of my life head buried in one kit or another since I discovered plastic scale modeling as a kid. There have been times in my life where modeling has helped me through rough situations. For some, with health issues, modeling is one of the few activities that one can still enjoy. If you've spent any significant amount of time dedicated to this hobby, I would dare say it has had a measurable impact on your life too. I have stood up and walked away from this hobby numerous times, always to come back. And the returning has always felt like coming home. Could I walk away from it again? Yes, if I had too. I know how to do that. Do I want to? No, I most certainly do not. If you think I have my priorities in the wrong place, well, that's my problem, isn't it? Now, back to the discussion about Star Wars, I mean Star Trek. Excuse me... what, this isn't a Star Trek forum? Now you tell me That really depends on your perception of toys. Seems to me a toy can be just as much of a little treasure as any other object, and it's hard to deny that there are many toys that can be considered almost art. Look at the prices some of them command based on their appraisals on the Antiques Roadshow. I don't think Darren is denigrating anybody's craftsmanship or passion when he suggests that the pages and pages of tortured testimony (for lack of a better term) in this thread could be seen as amusing (I should have said bemusing) to some. As a producer himself of resin correction sets, his perspective is clearly that of a fellow geek. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mstor Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, seawinder said: That really depends on your perception of toys. Seems to me a toy can be just as much of a little treasure as any other object, and it's hard to deny that there are many toys that can be considered almost art. Look at the prices some of them command based on their appraisals on the Antiques Roadshow. Now we're arguing the definition of toys. So it's a matter of semantics? What is a toy? When is a toy not a toy, or better yet when is what is not a toy a toy? A toy is a toy except when it is not. Wait, it's not toy is equal to toy except when toy equals not toy, then not toy equals toy. But then not toy is not equal to not toy and toy is not equal to toy. Sorry, just messing with ya. But you've got to admit that you were reducing it to a matter of semantics. At that point anything can be anything else. Just depends on how you define a thing and that, my friend, is a whole other story. P.S. Definition of "toy" from Websters Dictionary: "something for a child to play with". So, I know we all enjoy the child within us, but...? Edited November 24, 2019 by Mstor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmanrick Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, seawinder said: That really depends on your perception of toys. Seems to me a toy can be just as much of a little treasure as any other object, and it's hard to deny that there are many toys that can be considered almost art. Look at the prices some of them command based on their appraisals on the Antiques Roadshow. Actually, whether one perceives scale models as toys or not, isn't up to the individual. They are technically defined as toys, no matter how much they may command on the secondary market. Just as a watercolor knocked off by a novice is technically classified as art right up there with the Van Gogh's et al. Classic Mercedes Gull Wings are still considered automobiles, as are Yugo's and Ford Pinto's. Value is another kettle of fish altogether and still doesn't impact them being designated as toys or not. Now you or others may not view them as toys, but they are classified and defined as toys, no matter how much they may mean to an individual or not. Edited November 23, 2019 by madmanrick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mstor Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 27 minutes ago, madmanrick said: They are technically defined as toys By whom? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tapchan Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 (edited) Well, technically toy is meant to be played with. RC models fit this well, scale models fit as well as size 7 shoes on size 10 feet - even if you manage to wear it you'll not walk far anyway. Unbuilt scale models are falling closer to hobby/craft, while build scale models fall into collectible area. Of course you can build model and give it to kid to play as toy but you can do the same with Ming Dynasty vase or Faberge Egg. And of course I missed the point. We are on scale modelling forums. I can hardly believe we can find any other more interesting topic for everyone here than scale models. When you go to any other forum dedicated to some subject you will see talks there about as much tiny details as we talk about here. When I went to knife dedicated forum to ask which set of kitchen knives should I buy in middle range I was told that only knives from the top of the top shelf are worth buying (~$200 per piece). Any other thing is junk. When I shared the model of my current set and blade sharpener they started to say things like "whoa, does it even cut", "worthless crap, wouldn't buy them even for $20", "they are just piece of steel plates, barely sharpened". They served me well for 5 last years 😄 But I understand, that people there are knife passionates and lot of them are kitchen cheffs and for their needs my set was just worthless. If you go to archery forums there are pretty much same talks. We are scale model passionates and we talk in detail about models, I see nothing odd. Some people will say "this AMK bird look like a Tomcat so I like it", some will see shape oddities from the spot and will try to investigate. I use my facebook mainly to observe various modelling/jet related groups, have seen lot of mixed Tomcats recently and was always able to recognize AMK kit without reading description. This denys statement, that shape inaccuracies are so slight that impossible to spot without measuring tools. Edited November 23, 2019 by Tapchan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mstor said: So it's a matter of semantics? you can’t have semantics without having some antics.... 😎 Edited November 23, 2019 by habu2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, habu2 said: you can’t have semantics without having some antics.... 😎 Dude, you are on a roll! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mstor Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 3 hours ago, habu2 said: you can’t have semantics without having some antics.... 😎 You, Sir, are Correct! And we are well served to remember so. Truer words of wisdom have never been spoken (since page 270). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mstor Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 4 hours ago, Tapchan said: Well, technically toy is meant to be played with. RC models fit this well... I think a lot of RC enthusiasts would argue that what they are doing is not "playing" . Otherwise, the rest of your post is right on the mark. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
seawinder Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 7 hours ago, Mstor said: Now we're arguing the definition of toys. So it's a matter of semantics? What is a toy? When is a toy not a toy, or better yet when is what is not a toy a toy? A toy is a toy except when it is not. Wait, it's not toy is equal to toy except when toy equals not toy, then not toy equals toy. But then not toy is not equal to not toy and toy is not equal to toy. Sorry, just messing with ya. But you've got to admit that you were reducing it to a matter of semantics. At that point anything can be anything else. Just depends on how you define a thing and that, my friend, is a whole other story. P.S. Definition of "toy" from Websters Dictionary: "something for a child to play with". So, I know we all enjoy the child within us, but...? Yikes! I knew I shouldn't have chimed in. No, I wasn't intending to play semantics games. It was just that you seemed offended by Darren's speaking of models as toys, and I was trying to point out that even if they are toys, that doesn't mean that they can't be treasures as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JeffreyK Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 7 hours ago, madmanrick said: Actually, whether one perceives scale models as toys or not, isn't up to the individual. They are technically defined as toys, no matter how much they may command on the secondary market. Just as a watercolor knocked off by a novice is technically classified as art right up there with the Van Gogh's et al. Classic Mercedes Gull Wings are still considered automobiles, as are Yugo's and Ford Pinto's. Value is another kettle of fish altogether and still doesn't impact them being designated as toys or not. Now you or others may not view them as toys, but they are classified and defined as toys, no matter how much they may mean to an individual or not. Exactly the opposite! Scale model Manufacturers put labels like "14+" or "not suitable for children under 14" etc. on their boxes precisely to identify them as anything BUT toys. Toys are are things suitable for children and as such must pass MUCH tighter safety regulations, such as material composition, part size, sharp edges etc. etc. Most plastic model kits would fail these regulations and if an accident happened the manufacturer could be sued (if the product was allowed to be sold in the first place). J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mfezi Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Look, I love this hobby and have been making model aircraft since I was 6 years old - so for more than 40 years. It has had a big impact on my life and, if I have to be honest, I took it even more seriously as I got older. Nevertheless, in most countries around the world you can buy plastic model kits in toy shops. Many of the models in my stash were indeed bought in toy shops - it is difficult to argue that something sold in toy shops around the world is not a toy. It doesn't change my passion for the hobby. About the age argument: Many Lego sets say 14+ on the box. Are those not toys either, even though they are (once again) sold virtually exclusively in toy shops? By the way, I just had a look: Kits made in the EU seem to generally have the 14+ sign, but my Hasegawa and Tamiya kits say nothing on the box, while my Zvezda kits just have a "no ages 0-3" sign. Looking inside on Tamiya instructions, the warnings I see are "A supervising adult should also read the instructions if a child assembled the model"; "Modeling skills helpful if under 10 years of age" and "Keep out of reach of small children". The same warnings appear in the instructions of many toys - something I can attest to as I have two fairly small children. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mstor Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, JeffreyK said: Exactly the opposite! Scale model Manufacturers put labels like "14+" or "not suitable for children under 14" etc. on their boxes precisely to identify them as anything BUT toys. Toys are are things suitable for children and as such must pass MUCH tighter safety regulations, such as material composition, part size, sharp edges etc. etc. Most plastic model kits would fail these regulations and if an accident happened the manufacturer could be sued (if the product was allowed to be sold in the first place). J Exactly! Thank you Sir! I think some may get confused when entities such the postal service consider all these items under the general classification of toys. eBay does the same thing, as does Amazon. They group hobbies and models under the general classification of toys and games. It always irritates me when companies do this. I find it belittles and demeans our chosen craft to find it listed under "Toys and Games". The nerve of such people. Of course we all know they do these things for the purpose of convenience and simplification in managing product. I, as you noted above, consider toys as something suitable for children to play with, and no, I don't mean your inner child all you smart alecks out there. I think we have stumbled on another point that people are going to refuse to see eye to eye on. So, if you want to think of scale models as toys, please, be my guest. To me they haven't been toys since I stopped setting up battle scenes in the garden with my friends. We all built Aurora tanks with their vinyl tracks that we couldn't keep on the wheels as we pushed them across the ground. Along with the bags of plastic army men, we set up battle scenes and then imagined them shooting and things exploding. The poor model tanks didn't last too long under those conditions. High attrition rate. Those same army men are available today. Here's a nice pic. Today, they come in two sizes... Edited November 24, 2019 by Mstor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mfezi Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 3 hours ago, JeffreyK said: Exactly the opposite! Scale model Manufacturers put labels like "14+" or "not suitable for children under 14" etc. on their boxes precisely to identify them as anything BUT toys. Toys are are things suitable for children and as such must pass MUCH tighter safety regulations, such as material composition, part size, sharp edges etc. etc. Most plastic model kits would fail these regulations and if an accident happened the manufacturer could be sued (if the product was allowed to be sold in the first place). J 32 minutes ago, Mstor said: Exactly! Thank you Sir! You are so right. This is also not a toy: Neither is this: And this is DEFINITELY not a toy: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ventris Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 So now you guys discuss Lego because some people can not accept that AMK f***ed up this kit? This thread is going places... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
masanissa Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 For any of the IndieGoGo backers who haven't heard from AMK, this was posted on Facebook. Get hold of vicky@amkhobby.com to confirm your address. Because after two and a half years some people have made changes in their lives and email addresses. Avantgarde Model Kits November 21 at 6:42 AM · To all Indiegogo backers, First of all, thank you very much for your support! We had been sending e-mail to each of you to confirm your address and phone number for sending kits to you. Many of you replied us already, and the kits are already on the way to you. We still have a few of you didn’t reply Vicky’s e-mail, or your e-mail address is not working. If you are one of them seeing this post, please leave us a message! So that, we can contact you to confirm your address. Thank you very much again! We will continue our way of producing kits. Hopefully, with shorter lead time. And hope you can support us as before! Cheers! Sio, and AMK Team Quote Link to post Share on other sites
masanissa Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 11 hours ago, Mstor said: I think a lot of RC enthusiasts would argue that what they are doing is not "playing" . Otherwise, the rest of your post is right on the mark. Remember the film Flight of the Phoenix? It was a model airplane builder that saved their donkeys. Come on donkey wake ups! We gotta fly! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Mfezi said: About the age argument: Many Lego sets say 14+ on the box. Are those not toys either, even though they are (once again) sold virtually exclusively in toy shops? By the way, I just had a look: Kits made in the EU seem to generally have the 14+ sign, but my Hasegawa and Tamiya kits say nothing on the box, while my Zvezda kits just have a "no ages 0-3" sign. Looking inside on Tamiya instructions, the warnings I see are "A supervising adult should also read the instructions if a child assembled the model"; "Modeling skills helpful if under 10 years of age" and "Keep out of reach of small children". The same warnings appear in the instructions of many toys - something I can attest to as I have two fairly small children. I would not be surprised if manufacturers are obligated to display such text as a legal or government regulatory requirement, specifically to prevent the possibility of unsupervised(*) children choking on the parts. (*) or, in the case of my deadbeat dumbass nephew, supervised children . Edited November 24, 2019 by habu2 doh, double negative... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mstor Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 5 hours ago, masanissa said: Remember the film Flight of the Phoenix? It was a model airplane builder that saved their donkeys. Come on donkey wake ups! We gotta fly! Great movie with James Stewart. Great actor and very accomplished pilot. I loved him in the movie Strategic Air Command with all the great shots of B-36s and B-47s. Watched a little of the remake of Flight of the Phoenix, but couldn't get into it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Whiskey Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 6 hours ago, Mstor said: Great movie with James Stewart. Great actor and very accomplished pilot. I loved him in the movie Strategic Air Command with all the great shots of B-36s and B-47s. Watched a little of the remake of Flight of the Phoenix, but couldn't get into it. SAC is one my father's favorite films. I think the last time I watched it with him I yawned too many times and pissed him off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IAGeezer Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 20 hours ago, Mstor said: Exactly! Thank you Sir! I think some may get confused when entities such the postal service consider all these items under the general classification of toys. eBay does the same thing, as does Amazon. They group hobbies and models under the general classification of toys and games. It always irritates me when companies do this. I find it belittles and demeans our chosen craft to find it listed under "Toys and Games". The nerve of such people. Of course we all know they do these things for the purpose of convenience and simplification in managing product. I, as you noted above, consider toys as something suitable for children to play with, and no, I don't mean your inner child all you smart alecks out there. I think we have stumbled on another point that people are going to refuse to see eye to eye on. So, if you want to think of scale models as toys, please, be my guest. To me they haven't been toys since I stopped setting up battle scenes in the garden with my friends. We all built Aurora tanks with their vinyl tracks that we couldn't keep on the wheels as we pushed them across the ground. Along with the bags of plastic army men, we set up battle scenes and then imagined them shooting and things exploding. The poor model tanks didn't last too long under those conditions. High attrition rate. Those same army men are available today. Here's a nice pic. Today, they come in two sizes... Ummm... Those are Marines, and they take that kind of talk personally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmanrick Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) On 11/24/2019 at 12:27 AM, JeffreyK said: Exactly the opposite! Scale model Manufacturers put labels like "14+" or "not suitable for children under 14" etc. on their boxes precisely to identify them as anything BUT toys. Toys are are things suitable for children and as such must pass MUCH tighter safety regulations, such as material composition, part size, sharp edges etc. etc. Most plastic model kits would fail these regulations and if an accident happened the manufacturer could be sued (if the product was allowed to be sold in the first place). J Sorry to disagree. The U.S. Government classifies model kits as Toys both by the Consumer Product Safety Commission and by U.S. Customs. Here is an article that discusses age determination in toys and model kits are listed on page 61 under Interlocking Building Materials, as well as on page 201 under Arts and Crafts: Toy/Product Toy Subcategory Page Model kits ...........................................................Interlocking Building Materials ................... 61 Modeling kits/materials ......................................Arts & Crafts ................................................ 201 If one chooses to browse further, I am sure you can find a great deal more information on the Consumer Product Safety Commission's website: www.cpsc.gov Also, the age listed on kit boxes is to dissuade people from buying a kit and giving it to their 5 year old (for example) and it does not change the designation from a toy. It simply gives a guide as to what age the toy is appropriate for. At least in the U.S. ALL toys have an age designation on their boxes, regardless of what it is. Edited November 25, 2019 by madmanrick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Whiskey Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 12 hours ago, IAGeezer said: Ummm... Those are Marines, and they take that kind of talk personally. Ummm those are US Army soldiers, not Marines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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