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8 hours ago, evilmedic13 said:

And I, and probably the rest of the indiegullible folks, have yet to get ours.After this debacle, I wonder how many will be pre-ordering the F-104 they say they're developing? I can say for sure,NOT THIS GUY. Kinetic AND Hasegawa are real, and I can touch them. What minimal faith I had, is as gone. Better chance of me kissing my ex, than ever trusting that process ever again.

It was pretty clear for a long time that this was going to end really bad, why didnt you cancel your preorder?

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1 hour ago, Ventris said:

why didnt you cancel your preorder?

 

Yes, why, evilmedic, fella? I was adamant that I wouldn't ever buy the AMK kit as long as the rear hind, IFR probe panel and TARPS pod weren't fixed. Never pre-order, of course because it felt like an abusive prerrogative to me back then.

For a while I had HIGH hopes that AMK would listen to their customers' complaints on this and other forums, but then they went silent and pulled that Facebook page scam that made me realise Martin Wilson and Sio SeiHoi were not serious people, a fact that I confirmed after they released the AMK Tomcat kit they way they did.

One thing that I will never get to fathom is these modellers still maintaining that the AMK kit is worth buying... :hmmm:But I do understand that they are being just obsequious towards AMK, who knows why. 

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1 hour ago, Ventris said:

It was pretty clear for a long time that this was going to end really bad, why didnt you cancel your preorder?

 

This one is easy:

- first, to cancel a preorder, you've got to reach someone. AMK folks disappeared years ago.

- second, to know there's a problem, you've got to be informed by the manufacturer. See statement above.

- third, to know there's a problem, you've got to be informed by others customers. AMK found the way, they simply deleted complaints from Indiegogo backers, amongst other things.

 

Imagine being someone who didn't read these topic and knowing nothing about this never ending story.

 

 

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2 hours ago, shion said:

Imagine being someone who didn't read these topic and knowing nothing about this never ending story.

Yes, but the enquiry you quoted above was addressed to evilmedic, a regular member on this forum, if you cared check his post count.

Yet, he didn't cancel. I didn't even care to pre-order much before we discovered that the AMK kit was to be a shapeless flop.

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22 minutes ago, Hubbie Marsten said:

Yes, but the enquiry you quoted above was addressed to evilmedic, a regular member on this forum, if you cared check his post count.

Yet, he didn't cancel. I didn't even care to pre-order much before we discovered that the AMK kit was to be a shapeless flop.

 

You miss the first point.

How can you cancel a crowfunding investment when the money's already sent, the creator disappeared and the platform doesn't care?

There's no surprise they didn't choose Kickstarter on this one.

 

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Let me preface this by saying that I did not participate in the IndieNOgo scheme. As I have made clear on this forum, I did preorder from Sincere Hobby. I am sure that my experience with trying just to get a status from Sincere, is indicative of the issues folks who did participate in the Indie scheme, would have had. I sent multiple emails to Sincere, just trying to determine if they had record of my preorder (since for some reason my account on Sincere's website didn't show the prepaid preorder), with absolutely zero response. In fact, I didn't get a response from Sincere until I sent them a threatening email telling them I was going to dispute my preorder purchase with my CC company (which due to amount of time that had elapsed, I am not even sure would have been successful) once I knew the kit had been released. I received a response within I think 24-36 hours then, but it may have been more a function of FINALLY locating the correct email address to contact, I went through like three or four. Either way I received my kits within a few days of that email.

 

Now consider the lack of response and caring attitude that AMK has shown the Indie folks and imagine just HOW difficult it would have been for those folks to cancel their orders, when they can't even get a cohesive answer as to the status of their preorders. Again, they could dispute the order, but since it was made over two years ago, the CC company might not even allow the dispute. It's a crap shoot. I think the lesson in all of this is, stay far away from preorders. Being a LONG time wargamer, I should have taken that lesson to heart long ago, for there have been many companies that folded with preorder money, while the game was never to be seen. Ahh, but we live and learn or at least that is the way it is supposed to be! Once bitten, twice shy.

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23 minutes ago, shion said:

You miss the first point.

How can you cancel a crowfunding investment when the money's already sent, the creator disappeared and the platform doesn't care?

There's no surprise they didn't choose Kickstarter on this one.

 

No, I don't. Not everybody invested in Indiegogo. Before going sick and tired about the AMK lame fiasco on this thread I learnt that members, such as Glorystomp on this forum, cancelled his pre-order. I'm quite sure that there have been more.

I neither know (nor I care to know) what the hell Kickstarter is. 

How come Tamiya haven't ever pulled off the sorry 5000-mark pre-order condition in order to develop and release the best 1/48 F-14A/D Tomcat kit so far? How come Tamiya never stated that their Tomcat kit was going to better up any existent 1/48 F-14 kit up to these days than even the bang seats in the kit would eject?

What you boast about is precisely what you lack of.    

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51 minutes ago, Hubbie Marsten said:

Yes, but the enquiry you quoted above was addressed to evilmedic, a regular member on this forum, if you cared check his post count.

Yet, he didn't cancel. I didn't even care to pre-order much before we discovered that the AMK kit was to be a shapeless flop.

The Indiegogo crowd funding campaign didn't allow for cancellations. Once you paid your money you had to ask for your money back from AMK. They were not responsive to my request for a refund and I used the comms system on Indiegogo to communicate with AMK.

 

I asked for a refund after they promised in August that I'd have the kit I paid for delivered by the end of the month. So in September, after seeing the kit was out I asked for my money back. Still no kit no money. In October I sent a "very stern" email. The response was AMK asking me to confirm my address. 

 

Still nothing happened in October.

 

I sent a flaming angry email via Indiegogo on Nov 2. Then I was handed off to Vicky at AMK because she was put in charge of sending out the kits. She mailed out my kit on the 14th of Nov, Got it on the 29th. 

 

Now it's not really because the kit is horrible - it has issues, and has some innovative approaches, and kind of "looks like a Tomcat - I sold it because of the sour taste left in my mouth after the whole ordeal.

 

I wish AMK well. I would hope they learn from all this and make changes so that something like this never happens again. 

 

BTW the Weapons set is very nice.

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13 hours ago, evilmedic13 said:

And I, and probably the rest of the indiegullible folks, have yet to get ours.After this debacle, I wonder how many will be pre-ordering the F-104 they say they're developing? I can say for sure,NOT THIS GUY. Kinetic AND Hasegawa are real, and I can touch them. What minimal faith I had, is as gone. Better chance of me kissing my ex, than ever trusting that process ever again.

 

They haven't contacted you? That's b.s.

 

I finally got my Indiegogo kit on Nov 29th.:tumble:

 

We should have been the first to get these kits and they had an opportunity to create a fan base. But . . . :gr_barf:

 

You need to send an email out and ask them for your kit. Vicky is taking care of this and I don't think she created the problem so be nice to her. It may still take 3 weeks to get your kit. Good news is that they are sent by Air Mail and have a tracking number. Good luck!

Here's the contact information 

 

Vicky Zhang
AMK AvantGarde Model Kits
vicky@amkhobby.com
(+86)13825620135

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8 minutes ago, masanissa said:

Now it's not really because the kit is horrible - it has issues, and has some innovative approaches, and kind of "looks like a Tomcat - I sold it because of the sour taste left in my mouth after the whole ordeal.

 

I wish AMK well. I would hope they learn from all this and make changes so that something like this never happens again. 

 

 

You sold the kit because it was sort of an accumulation of nothing but regrettable things to you related to all the grief you went through in order to get the kit and also because, in the end, and after the long wait, you were only disappointed in AMK breaking their lame promises of delivering the best kit in the market... :rolleyes: Pure and simple.

I think, and I say it openly, that AMK have clearly betrayed the modellers faith badly, and I sometimes wondered why they were still allowed to be on modelling forums, representing the firm - that is - after having gone silent when they took the money off the modelling community. I'd certainly be very happy if no modeller trusted their silly promises ever again.

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Just now, Hubbie Marsten said:

 

 

You sold the kit because it was sort of an accumulation of nothing but regrettable things to you related to all the grief you went through in order to get the kit and also because, in the end, and after the long wait, you were only disappointed in AMK breaking their lame promises of delivering the best kit in the market... :rolleyes: Pure and simple.

I think, and I say it openly, that AMK have clearly betrayed the modellers faith badly, and I sometimes wondered why they were still allowed to be on modelling forums, representing the firm - that is - after having gone silent when they took the money off the modelling community. I'd certainly be very happy if no modeller trusted their silly promises ever again.

I was very clear with Sio about my disappointment and that my trust is broken.

 

It would be foolish of AMK to run another Crowdfunding or pre-order scheme. They would be excoriated and laughed off the internetZ!

 

Now if they get their newly announced F-104 on the market soon (not five years!) and I think it meets my standards, I may consider buying it. However the price point of the very nice Kinetic F-104 will create problems for AMK.

 

They have also said on their Facebook page that version of the MiG-25 is still in the works  :action-smiley-082:  :bandhead2: 

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I won’t be buying an AMK Tomcat kit - or any other AMK product - because I refuse to reward a company with poor business practices, poor marketing and poor public relations policies. All this ranting and raving on the interwebs may serve a purpose in venting frustrations but obviously it hasn’t had a positive effect on AMK as a company. The most effective tool I have in this case is my wallet, and in this case my wallet is staying closed. 
 

No soup for you !!!

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Sorry all, I’ve been a little busy at work today to reply. Actually, this is the first time I’ve even looked at this today. I didn’t bother asking for a refund because I felt that maybe, after all the promotional stuff was done, I’d actually get my order before the hobby shops. Once again I was wrong. Kinda used to it now, and I’m pretty well over it. Also, I didn’t even see the option for a refund when I looked, 2 yrs later. I figured I’d already spent it, may as well wait and hope. Im pretty patient, and laid back, althohhh seeing the announcement spruebrothers has then in stock really took me by surprise.

 

 Vicky did contact me about my address and sent an email, on nov 21 that it was on its way. 17 days after the address confirmation email. In the big picture, it’s really nothing for me to put too much angst into. Other than my little vent post, I’ve been pretty quiet about the whole thing. I’ve honestly got better things to occupy myself with. Such as My 10 yo has a hockey tournament at Notre Dame this weekend that he’s looking  forward to, and  fine tuning my new D850at the same time . My ex has him the first 2 days so, it’ll be a nice weekend away with my fiancé as well.  I’ll definitely fine tune it with her in the frame too. 
 So, sorry again about the delay. It really wasn’t meant to be that long. 🧐

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14 hours ago, Hubbie Marsten said:

How come Tamiya haven't ever pulled off the sorry 5000-mark pre-order condition in order to develop and release the best 1/48 F-14A/D Tomcat kit so far?

The answer to your question is that Tamiya has been in business since 1946 AND they are a recognized leader in the industry. I.E. they have very deep pockets.

 

The issue isn't really why AMK went with the preorder scheme, I think it is pretty clear they needed the money to get the kit out. The operative questions in MY mind are why did it then take another 2 plus years for AMK to bring the kit to market. The other operative question is why did they not use the intervening 2+ years to make corrections to the kit, in an attempt to make the kit live up to their self-inflicted hyperbole. That last question I assume, can simply be answered by this; because the molds were cut and they were not going to spend more money, when the kit is going to be "good enough" for 90% of the modelers out there. Remember most modelers do not live on these forums and the further they are away from the Western world, the less likely they are to be influenced (good or bad) by these forum comments.

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6 minutes ago, madmanrick said:

The answer to your question is that Tamiya has been in business since 1946 AND they are a recognized leader in the industry. I.E. they have very deep pockets.

 

The issue isn't really why AMK went with the preorder scheme, I think it is pretty clear they needed the money to get the kit out. The operative questions in MY mind are why did it then take another 2 plus years for AMK to bring the kit to market. The other operative question is why did they not use the intervening 2+ years to make corrections to the kit, in an attempt to make the kit live up to their self-inflicted hyperbole. That last question I assume, can simply be answered by this; because the molds were cut and they were not going to spend more money, when the kit is going to be "good enough" for 90% of the modelers out there. Remember most modelers do not live on these forums and the further they are away from the Western world, the less likely they are to be influenced (good or bad) by these forum 

  Yes, to their benefit! Spending less time on these forms, and more time building models!

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25 minutes ago, madmanrick said:

The answer to your question is that Tamiya has been in business since 1946 AND they are a recognized leader in the industry. I.E. they have very deep pockets.

 

 

Okay, Rick, but, if so, how many kits did AMK turn out before they embarked in their 1/48 F-14D "Best of the Universe Kit" fiasco?

Why didn't they need to determine that abusive 5000-mark preorder prerrogative for the Fouga Magister, the Kfir or even the MiG-31? (and this is just the 1/48 range of kits I'm asking you about. Mind you, the Kfir kit was so awful that everybody purchased the Kinetic one, which ensued the correction of the whole fuselage by AMK, remember?). 

Reason is they deemed themselves to have the right to do so after watching the whole modelling community polishing their knobs with regard to the MiG-31 kit, and how good it was and whatnot... :rolleyes: Hence, they were so satisfied on their past success about this kit (reading modellers type: "Oh, if any new-mold kit they develop is of the quality of their MiG-31 wonder, then I'll buy it pulling blinds on my eyes"...).

That's exactly what happened, and that's why Martin Wilson came beating the drum about how definitive and good this new project was going to be compared to what kits already existed in the market. What did he have to make such a statement? Your trust based on a past kit - nothing more. This is where Tamiya came into play, very silently and serious, and there it was when AMK's ship started to founder. The blow was such a knock-out punch to them that AMK dismissed the modellers' objection to the fat hinds as being an optical illusion... :rofl:Well, the fat hinds is what you finally got, and they just won't go away even when you pull blinders on your stubborn eyes.

So you may insist on the fact that Tamiya have very deep pockets, and that they've been in business since 1946 and that they're a recognized leader in industry all you wish. At the end of the day you're just deluding yourself.      

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1 hour ago, Hubbie Marsten said:

 

 

Okay, Rick, but, if so, how many kits did AMK turn out before they embarked in their 1/48 F-14D "Best of the Universe Kit" fiasco?

Why didn't they need to determine that abusive 5000-mark preorder prerrogative for the Fouga Magister, the Kfir or even the MiG-31? (and this is just the 1/48 range of kits I'm asking you about. Mind you, the Kfir kit was so awful that everybody purchased the Kinetic one, which ensued the correction of the whole fuselage by AMK, remember?). 

Reason is they deemed themselves to have the right to do so after watching the whole modelling community polishing their knobs with regard to the MiG-31 kit, and how good it was and whatnot... :rolleyes: Hence, they were so satisfied on their past success about this kit (reading modellers type: "Oh, if any new-mold kit they develop is of the quality of their MiG-31 wonder, then I'll buy it pulling blinds on my eyes"...).

That's exactly what happened, and that's why Martin Wilson came beating the drum about how definitive and good this new project was going to be compared to what kits already existed in the market. What did he have to make such a statement? Your trust based on a past kit - nothing more. This is where Tamiya came into play, very silently and serious, and there it was when AMK's ship started to founder. The blow was such a knock-out punch to them that AMK dismissed the modellers' objection to the fat hinds as being an optical illusion... :rofl:Well, the fat hinds is what you finally got, and they just won't go away even when you pull blinders on your stubborn eyes.

So you may insist on the fact that Tamiya have very deep pockets, and that they've been in business since 1946 and that they're a recognized leader in industry all you wish. At the end of the day you're just deluding yourself.      

dude, a lot of totally un-warranted blows if you ask me. Maybe dial back the insulting tone perhaps?

 

Yes, Tamiya IS an industry leader, the is NO denying that. And they have the means of producing kits without pre-order. That may have nothing to do with AMK's slippings, but it does answer your question of  "How come Tamiya haven't ever pulled off the sorry 5000-mark pre-order condition in order to develop and release the best 1/48 F-14A/D Tomcat kit so far?"

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7 minutes ago, niart17 said:

dude, a lot of totally un-warranted blows if you ask me. Maybe dial back the insulting tone perhaps?

 

 

Not unwarranted blows but hard facts.

 

8 minutes ago, niart17 said:

Yes, Tamiya IS an industry leader, the is NO denying that. And they have the means of producing kits without pre-order. That may have nothing to do with AMK's slippings, but it does answer your question of  "How come Tamiya haven't ever pulled off the sorry 5000-mark pre-order condition in order to develop and release the best 1/48 F-14A/D Tomcat kit so far?"

 

How about their MiG-31 kit then? What was so different back then with regard to AMK as a small company that they didn't need to pull the X-mark pre-order prerrogative scam?

How about Great Wall Hobby, for instance? Are they an industry leader who have the means of producing a 1/48 F-14A kit without imposing the sorry X-mark prerrogative?

I'll give you the "dial back the insulting tone". Or couldn't I easily accuse you of being too obsequious because you bought a kit which in the resulted not to be the "Best F-14 Kit in the Universe?" 

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51 minutes ago, niart17 said:

dude, a lot of totally un-warranted blows if you ask me. Maybe dial back the insulting tone perhaps?

 

Yes, Tamiya IS an industry leader, the is NO denying that. And they have the means of producing kits without pre-order. That may have nothing to do with AMK's slippings, but it does answer your question of  "How come Tamiya haven't ever pulled off the sorry 5000-mark pre-order condition in order to develop and release the best 1/48 F-14A/D Tomcat kit so far?"

 Why Zoukei Mura and GWH do not have to go for indiegogo then? Are they market leaders?

Anyway, the case is they handled it bad. Misshape that was that obvious so people can spot it right on from the test shot photos. And maybe if they bothered to fix it... but no, I remember Sio saying that it is just test mold and problem is under investigation. There was big masquerade with photos of "new" iteration of test shots that appeared here or there on some events. Photos, which as soon as they hit modelling community were said to be "not from this model show", "those are old", meanwhile they were deleted from facebook and (as far as I remember) even from here.

Why all those lies? They should've told "we ain't gonna touch it anymore" or "it's accurate enough" back then. 

Edited by Tapchan
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What are you guys even talking about. AMK (or any other company | or anyone on this world other than your very close relatives) does not own you anything. 

 

1) They said *if* they receive 5000 pre-orders they were going to produce the kit within 2017. They did *not*. 

2) They said it will the best F-14. So what?? every single company out there claims they are the best. From some perspectives they have the best F-14 kit. Price, details, single piece missiles put it over Tamiya for some, for me.

3) AMK is far from being the only company which misses "deadlines". Trumpeter/Hobbyboss literally advertised Flanker family for *6* years before coming with it. Every single model company misses their deadlines. Some by months some by years. I am not supporting this behavior but my point is I have never seen this scale of hate for this reason towards any other company. By the way I actually feel some of the disappointment here. It is exactly the same feelings I had when Academy came up with their "Su-30 conversion" monstrosity. Academy didnt even try. At least AMK really gave everything IMHO. Only mistake they made was missing the arbitrary deadline. Big woop. 

4) Crowd funding is becoming more and more common. When you enter a deal like that risks are obvious. If you are not aware of the risks, research more. What is so wrong with supporting a company if you really believe in them? I did not pre-order this kit but I pre-order other stuff before fully aware of potential delays. If you don't want to take the risk or don't see the company worth your trust, just wait until the kit is released.

 

So, don't take everything too seriously guys. One life, live it 😄

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1 hour ago, foxmulder_ms said:

2) They said it will the best F-14. So what?? every single company out there claims they are the best.

You bring up a very good point here, with this line of thinking. I have seen SO many people point to this statement with such disdain and hatred, that it's beyond belief. For me the reality is what matters, if I believed every claim a company or shill made, I would have shot my wad years ago on Seamonkeys, Rogaine and Pen** pumps. The truth is you are exactly right, a company can and does claim all sorts of things, but some of us let the products speak for themselves. I didn't buy this kit on the strength of some dubious claims by a company spokesperson. I obviously chose to preorder and to ultimately (many years later) to buy this kit based on my previous experience with their kits and because I liked the subject matter.

 

I get that people are upset with the fact that this kit is not accurate and not the greatest thing since sliced bread. But, (God forbid) a little perspective is in order here, this kit is build-able and for many it will make a pleasing build and model. I chose to keep my kits, just as I chose to keep my HobbyBoss and Hasegawa 'Cats. I will build them all, hopefully before I die, although that becomes less and less likely as the stash continues to grow. They may not end up being the perfect kit, but they will provide ME with relaxation and fun. And THAT is what I expect out of a model kit. Nothing more and nothing less. I am NOT satisfied with the customer experience that I received from AMK, which I believe is understandable. But, I also believe that I received what I paid for and the case is closed for me.

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4 hours ago, Hubbie Marsten said:

 

 

Okay, Rick, but, if so, how many kits did AMK turn out before they embarked in their 1/48 F-14D "Best of the Universe Kit" fiasco?

Why didn't they need to determine that abusive 5000-mark preorder prerrogative for the Fouga Magister, the Kfir or even the MiG-31? (and this is just the 1/48 range of kits I'm asking you about. Mind you, the Kfir kit was so awful that everybody purchased the Kinetic one, which ensued the correction of the whole fuselage by AMK, remember?). 

Reason is they deemed themselves to have the right to do so after watching the whole modelling community polishing their knobs with regard to the MiG-31 kit, and how good it was and whatnot... :rolleyes: Hence, they were so satisfied on their past success about this kit (reading modellers type: "Oh, if any new-mold kit they develop is of the quality of their MiG-31 wonder, then I'll buy it pulling blinds on my eyes"...).

That's exactly what happened, and that's why Martin Wilson came beating the drum about how definitive and good this new project was going to be compared to what kits already existed in the market. What did he have to make such a statement? Your trust based on a past kit - nothing more. This is where Tamiya came into play, very silently and serious, and there it was when AMK's ship started to founder. The blow was such a knock-out punch to them that AMK dismissed the modellers' objection to the fat hinds as being an optical illusion... :rofl:Well, the fat hinds is what you finally got, and they just won't go away even when you pull blinders on your stubborn eyes.

So you may insist on the fact that Tamiya have very deep pockets, and that they've been in business since 1946 and that they're a recognized leader in industry all you wish. At the end of the day you're just deluding yourself.      

You know for someone who has NO skin in the game, you surely spew A LOT of vitriol. I get it, you hate the kit, the company and any of their spokespeople. Your dime, your choice. But, if you think your arguments are persuasive and will help to educate people on the "evils" of this kit, you need to get a grip on reality.

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ANNNYYWAY guys, if this thread is going to make 300, the bickering stuff probably should stop. Granted there are some raw emotions, and some of it is understandable with the pre-order mess. But let's not get personal towards other members here and shut down the thread. If you have a gripe, take it up with AMK or the provider or whatever. Not with each other.

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1 hour ago, Tapchan said:

 Why Zoukei Mura and GWH do not have to go for indiegogo then? Are they market leaders?

Anyway, the case is they handled it bad. Misshape that was that obvious so people can spot it right on from the test shot photos. And maybe if they bothered to fix it... but no, I remember Sio saying that it is just test mold and problem is under investigation. There was big masquerade with photos of "new" iteration of test shots that appeared here or there on some events. Photos, which as soon as they hit modelling community were said to be "not from this model show", "those are old", meanwhile they were deleted from facebook and (as far as I remember) even from here.

Why all those lies? They should've told "we ain't gonna touch it anymore" or "it's accurate enough" back then. 

 

There's a recurring scheme by AMK, they always try to put the funding burden on someone else.

First it was on distributors, reason why we saw so many distributors simply drop the brand.

Then, it was on customers, with this infamous Indiegogo crowfunding.

 

Why others brands don't do these preorder heresy?

Because preorders don't make money, it's just a part of the revenues, which comes earlier.

 

If a company want/need some cash and early critics about their future product, they usually make as Tamiya with their "white box" kits.

 

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