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42 minutes ago, foxmulder_ms said:

What are you guys even talking about. AMK (or any other company | or anyone on this world other than your very close relatives) does not own you anything. 

So, don't take everything too seriously guys. One life, live it 😄

AMK owed me and the other Indiegogo backers something.

 

We paid to support them making the 1/48 F-14D. The contract was, that once the kit was made, we would be the first to receive the kit, since we invested in it sight unseen. Same for those with paid pre-orders. Money was given so something was owed.

 

AMK has done some nice kits and they've been around for a few years. That was their reputation.

 

I waited patiently for over two years, and really did not have a problem waiting, because I have a pile of kits to occupy my time. I saw the test shots over a year ago and it was obvious the kit had flaws. So AMK delayed production in order to fix some of the problems. I understood what was happening, knowing AMK would try to fix these flaws. They missed their deadlines over and over and over again. Still I was patient and understanding, since they're a small company.

 

Now if AMK folded and never produced the F-14D then that's a Caveat Emptor on me.

 

Then in August something remarkable happened!

 

Finally after two years AMK posted photos showing the their F-14D was ready and boxed into cartons for shipment to retailers. Hooray!

 

I contacted AMK via Indiegogo to remind them about my order and was told in August that the Indiegogo investors would receive everything at the end of August. Nothing came. In September I asked AMK to return my money . . . I was met with silence.

 

However they did find the time to get the kit out to selected friendly reviewers and builders. For publicity they posted video of "a cute girl" building the kit on Facebook. There was a modeling contest here in the USA in November showing a few built up AMK F-14Ds. That means those folks got the kit in September.

 

There are people who ordered the kit from online retailers who got the F-14D before any of those who pre-ordered the F-14D. I had to nag them for four months and finally I sent an angry email. After that the kit was sent out. I received the kit November 29th.

 

AMKs mistake was not missing a deadline. It was failing to be truthful, failing to respond to emails, failing to send the kits out to all those who pre-paid for the F-14D. Most important they never apologized for their behavior. Do I think AMK a bad company? No. They got in way over their heads and have crappy customer service skills. 

 

Yes, one life. You are entitled to get the things you paid for with it.

 

The money I earn represents my time and talent that I exchanged doing something for someone who would pay me. The money I earn represents my life. I paid for the AMK kit with the time from my life.

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3 hours ago, foxmulder_ms said:

What are you guys even talking about. AMK (or any other company | or anyone on this world other than your very close relatives) does not own you anything. 

 

Of course they do owe those involved ones a lot, and as you well can see, Masanissa has proven this point to you.

 

3 hours ago, foxmulder_ms said:

2) They said it will the best F-14. So what?? every single company out there claims they are the best. From some perspectives they have the best F-14 kit. Price, details, single piece missiles put it over Tamiya for some, for me.

 

 

So what? For instance, I've never read Tamiya praising the exact and unique Ώ-shaped profile canopy on any of their F-14 kits, just as I've read one Sio SeiHoi deplorably going on about that at their lousy Facebook AMK Fan Club (you're a member on there as long as you don't dare put down their F-14D kit fiasco - which was why I got sacked, eventually).

 

3 hours ago, foxmulder_ms said:

3) AMK is far from being the only company which misses "deadlines". Trumpeter/Hobbyboss literally advertised Flanker family for *6* years before coming with it. Every single model company misses their deadlines. Some by months some by years. I am not supporting this behavior but my point is I have never seen this scale of hate for this reason towards any other company. By the way I actually feel some of the disappointment here. It is exactly the same feelings I had when Academy came up with their "Su-30 conversion" monstrosity. Academy didnt even try. At least AMK really gave everything IMHO. Only mistake they made was missing the arbitrary deadline. Big woop. 

 

Neither Trumpeter nor Hobby Boss have ever told you that they would extend the deadline enough in order to fix the issues on the IFR probe panel and/or the fat hinds on a kit to then release the kit with those exact issues. Much less, they never got into lousy lies with regard to photos of new iteration of test shots that appeared here or there on some events, that the pictures were not from this or that model show, and that those are old pictures (meanwhile, the pictures were deleted from their pitiful joint on Facebook and stuff), I mean, come on! How well do you feel being treated like an idiot?

 

1 hour ago, madmanrick said:

You know for someone who has NO skin in the game, you surely spew A LOT of vitriol. I get it, you hate the kit, the company and any of their spokespeople. Your dime, your choice. But, if you think your arguments are persuasive and will help to educate people on the "evils" of this kit, you need to get a grip on reality.

 

I don't really intend for my arguments to be persuasive; I couldn't care less. I've got no skin in the game because I realised that AMK was pulling my leg with regard to everything related to the F-14D kit, disrespecting me as a customer. Everything they did two years ago confirmed that fact to me. I can really but imagine how bad those who've committed ought to have felt.  

And believe me when I tell you that AMK has had a tradition about lying to their customers: they've announced the releasement of the very same kits that were about to be released by their competitors - same scale and all, e.g., SuE, MiG-25, etc.

And what was of those kits? They simply never existed, it was a move merely done to try and thwart the releasement of their competitors - Kinetic and Kitty Hawk.

And as for the AMK Kfir kit, go ask Andreas Klein what the reason was for Wingman Models to choose the Kinetic kits as the basis to their SuperKit series instead.

You're the one who needs to get a good grip on reality, I'd say, Ricky.   

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4 minutes ago, zerosystem said:

It's obvious that a few won't ever have anything positive to say about the kit, 

 

The kit has the Best dirty wings ever found on any 1/48 F-14 Kit in the Universe, so far and as far as I'm concerned.

 

7 minutes ago, zerosystem said:

It's obvious that a few won't ever have anything positive to say about the company 

 

Awful that AMK have been the first manufacturer ever in plastic model making industry to have incurred in the most regrettable and forgettable marketing strategy, with all of the comings and goings, the promises, the lies as error dismissals.

 

13 minutes ago, zerosystem said:

It's obvious that a few won't ever have anything positive to say about the kit the people who are enjoying the kit now.  

  

About them, I wonder whether they have preferred not to have gone through all the waiting, the grief, and have been given a kit as they deserved, with the pointed issues duly fixed.

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This is part of the reason why I stated a long, long time ago...

There are kits you really need to get right the first shot due to the fanatical nature of the fan bases involved...

The BF-109

The F-4

The F-14

I think perhaps AMK was a bit overly ambitious jumping into the F-14 game when they didn't have their production reliably running..

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1 hour ago, zerosystem said:

I think it's time for Terry to shut this down.

 

It's obvious that a few won't ever have anything positive to say about the kit, the company or the people who are enjoying the kit now.  It's devolved into a long rant. 

I've been too busy (and still am) to post any updates on my analysis of the kit or make comments on the ongoing discussion.

While I haven't posted, I have spent hours analyzing, doing drawings, taking pictures and trying to figure out a solution for my fellow modelers. I'm not quite finished with that yet.

Right now I'm about to go shovel snow from the driveway so my wife can get in when she gets home from work.

 

Rather than lock the thread I'd suggest that the focus turn back to the kit (or bunny videos).

There are obviously those who won't be swayed either way about the fiasco that happened, so unless someone has info that can bring clarity. I see no point in arguing in circles. Opinions have already been expressed. If someone doesn't agree with your opinion then so be it. It's a free world.

 

I am going to try my best to post something later, even if it's not the full amount I had intended to post. Until then, here's something to consider:

Side_intakes_vstab_zpsujkgvdiu.jpg

:cheers:

 

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On 12/5/2019 at 8:12 AM, Hubbie Marsten said:

How about their MiG-31 kit then? What was so different back then with regard to AMK as a small company that they didn't need to pull the X-mark pre-order prerrogative scam?

How about Great Wall Hobby, for instance? Are they an industry leader who have the means of producing a 1/48 F-14A kit without imposing the sorry X-mark prerrogative?

Very good points,  Hubbie Marsten.

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On 12/5/2019 at 8:45 AM, Tapchan said:

 Why Zoukei Mura and GWH do not have to go for indiegogo then? Are they market leaders?

Anyway, the case is they handled it bad. Misshape that was that obvious so people can spot it right on from the test shot photos. And maybe if they bothered to fix it... but no, I remember Sio saying that it is just test mold and problem is under investigation. There was big masquerade with photos of "new" iteration of test shots that appeared here or there on some events. Photos, which as soon as they hit modelling community were said to be "not from this model show", "those are old", meanwhile they were deleted from facebook and (as far as I remember) even from here.

Why all those lies? They should've told "we ain't gonna touch it anymore" or "it's accurate enough" back then. 

That's exact;y the point. It's all lies and deceptions. that's why the very moment I felt that's going to happen, I promised I'll never buy this kit and I never did.

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22 hours ago, masanissa said:

AMK owed me and the other Indiegogo backers something.

 

We paid to support them making the 1/48 F-14D. The contract was, that once the kit was made, we would be the first to receive the kit, since we invested in it sight unseen. Same for those with paid pre-orders. Money was given so something was owed.

 

AMK has done some nice kits and they've been around for a few years. That was their reputation.

 

I waited patiently for over two years, and really did not have a problem waiting, because I have a pile of kits to occupy my time. I saw the test shots over a year ago and it was obvious the kit had flaws. So AMK delayed production in order to fix some of the problems. I understood what was happening, knowing AMK would try to fix these flaws. They missed their deadlines over and over and over again. Still I was patient and understanding, since they're a small company.

 

Now if AMK folded and never produced the F-14D then that's a Caveat Emptor on me.

 

Then in August something remarkable happened!

 

Finally after two years AMK posted photos showing the their F-14D was ready and boxed into cartons for shipment to retailers. Hooray!

 

I contacted AMK via Indiegogo to remind them about my order and was told in August that the Indiegogo investors would receive everything at the end of August. Nothing came. In September I asked AMK to return my money . . . I was met with silence.

 

However they did find the time to get the kit out to selected friendly reviewers and builders. For publicity they posted video of "a cute girl" building the kit on Facebook. There was a modeling contest here in the USA in November showing a few built up AMK F-14Ds. That means those folks got the kit in September.

 

There are people who ordered the kit from online retailers who got the F-14D before any of those who pre-ordered the F-14D. I had to nag them for four months and finally I sent an angry email. After that the kit was sent out. I received the kit November 29th.

 

AMKs mistake was not missing a deadline. It was failing to be truthful, failing to respond to emails, failing to send the kits out to all those who pre-paid for the F-14D. Most important they never apologized for their behavior. Do I think AMK a bad company? No. They got in way over their heads and have crappy customer service skills. 

 

Yes, one life. You are entitled to get the things you paid for with it.

 

The money I earn represents my time and talent that I exchanged doing something for someone who would pay me. The money I earn represents my life. I paid for the AMK kit with the time from my life.

👍

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4 hours ago, Zactoman said:

I've been too busy (and still am) to post any updates on my analysis of the kit or make comments on the ongoing discussion.

While I haven't posted, I have spent hours analyzing, doing drawings, taking pictures and trying to figure out a solution for my fellow modelers. I'm not quite finished with that yet.

Right now I'm about to go shovel snow from the driveway so my wife can get in when she gets home from work.

 

Rather than lock the thread I'd suggest that the focus turn back to the kit (or bunny videos).

There are obviously those who won't be swayed either way about the fiasco that happened, so unless someone has info that can bring clarity. I see no point in arguing in circles. Opinions have already been expressed. If someone doesn't agree with your opinion then so be it. It's a free world.

 

I am going to try my best to post something later, even if it's not the full amount I had intended to post. Until then, here's something to consider:

Side_intakes_vstab_zpsujkgvdiu.jpg

:cheers:

 

 

Thanks Zactoman. I can't remember, its Tamiya blue and AMK red, right? If I have that right, this is a very interesting graphic. Big difference at the rear end. Looks to account for some of the higher sloped dorsal surfaces of the rear of the AMK kit. Looking forward to you further analysis.

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10 hours ago, shion said:

 

A dry-fit build by a pretty experienced japanese builder: 

 

There are lot of others videos of his WIP.

Example, when I tackle the fit cockpit-fuselage:

 

 

 

Very interesting videos. Wish there was subtitles on the audio commentary. Would love to know what is being said. Sure looks like some very complicated assembly and very tight fit on some of those parts. On the first video it appears he is having some difficulty getting parts to fit, despite careful cleaning up of the parts.

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I finally got my kit yesterday after ordering it through Indiegogo 2,5 years back. A lot of plastic in the box. Managed to do a complete unboxing of all the sprues and fit everything back in the box again. That skill should mean that I am skilled enough to put the kit together as well. 😄

 

You all know about the kits shortcomings by now, so I won't beat that dead horse more than necessary. If I hadn´t read this thread I´d say, out of the box, the things that I noted were: cockpit details being on the soft side and TARPS pod not having glazed windows. Panel lines looked OK. Sharp and distinct. Of course, I know that they are not symmetric and all that. But I would probably never had noticed that on my own. 
 

Edited by erik_g
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8 hours ago, flybywire said:

That's exact;y the point. It's all lies and deceptions. that's why the very moment I felt that's going to happen, I promised I'll never buy this kit and I never did.

 

Lies and deceptions? Wow.. So, why are you still here then if you have no interest in buying/building the kit? Life's too short to waste it on things that don't interest you.

 

It's been released for a while and IMHO the topic should either switch to the kit itself or there should be another focused and probably moderated thread that would do that as 9/10 posts here are just people basically posting over and over how they're glad that the kit is not the best F-14D kit as AMK apparently solemnly sworn it would be.

 

IIRC, they keep their company afloat by molding for other companies. They needed at least a 5000 kit pre-order to make it worth their while to put the kit on the priority for that year, otherwise they'll push it as a lower priority to stuff from other companies and I'd assume this is exactly what happened (plus some shape issues later they had to semi-correct).

 

It was always going to be over-engineered coming from AMK so it's bound to have some fit issues here and there, not surprised about that. The F-14 shape is much more complex than the relatively boxy MiG-31 and the people are much more familiar with it so I'm also not surprised with some more noticeable shape issues occurring while translating 2D plans to 3D than what happened with the MiG. It should have been done better, sure, but again, there's a point where you just have to stop and focus on releasing it as it is, otherwise it won't even return the investment.

 

As I still find Tamiya too expensive for the level of detail provided (compared to the cheaper AMK), my money will go to AMK when I find the kit for a decent price. As for these posted shape issues, as long as I could put one kit next to the other and couldn't tell which one is so obviously wronger (especially with the wings swept back to take less space), that's fine for me, but hey, different people, different strokes.

 

I just hope it's not a major PITA to assemble so looking forward to seeing more build threads.

Edited by ijozic
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On 11/22/2019 at 8:36 PM, Mstor said:

I suspect there are shape issues with the fuselage (some of which Zactoman has pointed out today), that contribute to the misshaped "hips".

What I previously showed, the fuselage centerline (Tamiya blue, AMK red) contributed, but the problem is also a series of other mistakes and compensations that give it the odd hips.

If you look again at the centerline drawing at the forward v-stab area, you can see that AMK has this area too high.

Side_profiles_Grum_R_zpsbvds182k.jpg

In order for the cylindrical nacelles to rise up between the v-stabs, the front end of the v-stabs have to rise up as well. They went and made the nacelles rise up too quickly which caused the front of the v-stabs to be that much higher.

The v-stab intersection can't continue to the rear that high up or the exhausts would also be too high, so they ended up changing the angle of the v-stab intersection, keeping the rear intersection a little too high and making the  exhaust adapter slightly bigger in diameter. The v-stab had to be shorted or the rear section (and overall height of the plane) would have been too tall.

Side_intakes_vstab_zpsujkgvdiu.jpg

Note that the underside intersection of the hips is higher that the Tamiya. If they hadn't raised this line the sides of the hips would have looked much too tall/thick because of all of the above. In raising the line they expose more of the underside of the nacelle, but this doesn't show much because it's the underside.

 

Hip lines added. Keep in mind that this is a combo of the fuselage centerline and the intake profile. In these close-ups the fus. centerline is only visible on the top right. You can see a little step where the Tamiya bladder is slightly higher than the fus. centerline, while AMK had it equal at that point. I won't be adding lines showing the sealing plates (too much work, not enough time!).

Side_hip_AMK_zpskhulkwxc.jpg

Side_hip_Tam_zpsbknb0ygp.jpg

And the confusing red/blue spaghetti drawing...

Side_hips_zpsn4na8heb.jpg

If you look at the bladder intersection just forward of the v-stab you can see the the AMK line is curved and rises up towards the rear to meet the front of the v-stab. This is a result of the nacelle rising up too quickly. That line should be almost flat and sloping slightly down towards the rear.
Also note the bottom edge of the AMK bladder slopes down while the Tamiya line is level.

 

Here are some pics (sorry about the poor quality):

Bladders_side_zpsirgvklmf.jpg

Bladders_front_zps238btaec.jpg

Hips_AMK_Tam_zpsdjaiv3jq.jpg

 

Next time I'll discuss possible remedies...

 

:cheers:

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12 minutes ago, ijozic said:

IIRC, they keep their company afloat by molding for other companies. They needed at least a 5000 kit pre-order to make it worth their while to put the kit on the priority for that year, otherwise they'll push it as a lower priority to stuff from other companies and I'd assume this is exactly what happened

 

Note the timeline:

 

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2 hours ago, Zactoman said:

Note the timeline:

 

I'm thick so I might need some pointers here.. 2015 as in four years passed since then was your point? If so, they obviously pushed it back down the list of priorities back then and it stayed there due to their business model so I don't see how it contravenes with what I posted there.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but the only people who got really ****ed by this are those who pre-ordered it, but that's partly the issue with how that crowd funding campaign was set up on indie-go-go (i.e. no refund for a failed campaign as there's no target goal like on KS, IIRC). Looking back, I guess AMK should have just canceled out those pre-orders once they decided to delay it, but since a lot of those pre-orders went through the distributors (which some canceled on their own I guess once they got the note that the kit is getting pushed back), I'm not sure if that was a realistic option for AMK back then given the loss of face with the same distributors. Maybe they hoped for the best aiming for a next-year delay but then life happened and they just dug themselves deeper and deeper?

 

I would have been one of those pre-orderers as it was quite affordable IIRC, but the local online store eventually canceled it out, unfortunately. Still, given the low price, I wouldn't have been that distressed about delays as long as I knew the kit is eventually going to turn out (as there's a relatively big stash waiting for me anyway, including the Hasegawa A&D).

 

But, for example, when I manage to find some time, I'm working on the universally praised GWH MiG-29 9-13 and it's a mess at places (mainly intakes in so many ways, including poor fit, detail and non-matching locator tabs, then e.g. corrected/stretched weapon pylons not matching the pin holes on the wings made for the original too-short pylons, horrible decal placement guide, too small/fiddly PE parts like IFF antennas or seat harnesses without a plastic alternative, etc.). It's a very nicely detailed kit, albeit slightly over-engineered at places and certainly expensive for the size, but I get the impression they just hacked their way through with the intakes at one point and decided to release the kit instead of providing a matching level of detail there (like adding some form of auxiliary intake ramps and proper intake interior to match the level provided by giving the engines and engine covers) or even just debugging the fit issues there. Same with the weapon pylons which got retooled, but the wing apparently wasn't to match the new locator pins (or at least wasn't at the same time). Speaking of fiddly bits, I did like the tiny instrument decals provided for the cockpit instrument panel. It took quite some time to line all those up, but the end result was quite effective, IMHO and I wish all kits provided that option (compared to a single piece decal that I never use or just a standard cockpit panel with recesses where there's no realistic way for majority of builders to paint all those tiny but very noticeable instruments).

 

The seemingly never-reaching point is that those seems to have sold out more or less, but I don't see such storms of discontent about its issues on the forums and the relatively small kit with only a few weapons provided costs as much (or even more) as the much bigger and much more overly-engineered AMK Tomcat which also comes with a much more extensive weapon set.

 

So, not really sure what ticks people off here on a personal level that much here (disregarding the mess with the pre-orders). If they said nothing on the social networks ever (like e.g. GWH or Tamiya) and just released the kit whenever, I guess it would have garnered a completely different reputation?

 

Sorry for the long OT rant, this went way over what I was going to reply with initially.

Edited by ijozic
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1 hour ago, ijozic said:

 

Those seems to have sold out more or less, but I don't see such storms of discontent about its issues on the forums and the relatively small kit with few weapons provided costs as much (or even more) as the much bigger and more overly-engineered AMK Tomcat.

 

Sorry for the long rant, this went way over what I was going to reply with initially.

 

Because GWH and their spokeperson on ARC and on the internet don't behave the same way as AMK.

 

See last GWH announcements, the new boxing of the 1/48 Su-35 and the 1/72 Su-35.

Gazillions photos in high resolution of sprues and finished unpainted models + content description + release date.

 

Now spot the differences between these announcements and the typical AMK annoucement.

Spot the difference between the focus and contents of these topics and the AMK ones.

One indication: it tooks 3 years to see plastics parts of these Tomcat and 4 to see a completed build.

Edited by shion
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41 minutes ago, shion said:

 

Because GWH and their spokeperson on ARC and on the internet don't behave the same way as AMK.

 

See last GWH announcements, the new boxing of the 1/48 Su-35 and the 1/72 Su-35.

Gazillions photos in high resolution of sprues and finished unpainted models + content description + release date.

 

Now spot the differences between these announcements and the typical AMK annoucement.

Spot the difference between the focus and contents of these topics and the AMK ones.

One indication: it tooks 3 years to see plastics parts of these Tomcat and 4 to see a completed build.

 

Yes, but objectively speaking, so what? If someone is ticked off about the delays and their way of handling their business, why would that person take this so personally to go on a crusade against them? It's not like stating 'OK, they lost me as a customer', it's not like simply stating kit's issues over and over again, it's like people actively engaging and spending personal time and effort to convince others not to buy it and pretty-much openly rejoicing and high-fiving each other when there's something wrong discovered with the kit.

 

That's the part I'm having problems understanding as a non-aligned buyer of model kits.

Edited by ijozic
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13 hours ago, zerosystem said:

I think it's time for Terry to shut this down.

 

It's obvious that a few won't ever have anything positive to say about the kit, the company or the people who are enjoying the kit now.  It's devolved into a long rant. 

sorry, I kindly disagree. Why shut down a thread simply because we may not like the conversation? Sure, if it gets too much of nothing but insults. But other than that, it's a conversation. Shutting it down because some don't like it....sounds a bit heavy handed to me. JMHO

 

Bill

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10 minutes ago, ijozic said:

 

Yes, but objectively speaking, so what? If someone is ticked off about the delays and their way of handling their business, why would that person take this so personally to go on a crusade against them? It's not like stating 'OK, they lost me as a customer', it's not like simply stating kit's issues over and over again, it's like people actively engaging and spending personal time and effort to convince others not to buy it and pretty-much openly rejoicing and high-fiving each other when there's something wrong discovered with the kit.

 

That's the part I'm having problems understanding as a non-aligned buyer of model kits.

 

I think you're turning the tables.

 

The strange and suspicious behaviour on a plastic model kits forum isn't talking about kits and in particular the kit subject of the topic, 

the strange and suspicious in my opinion, is all these posts attacking people who talk about the kits.

And I think there's too many of these posts to define them as systemic. 

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18 minutes ago, niart17 said:

sorry, I kindly disagree. Why shut down a thread simply because we may not like the conversation? Sure, if it gets too much of nothing but insults. But other than that, it's a conversation. Shutting it down because some don't like it....sounds a bit heavy handed to me. JMHO

 

Bill

 

Because it's no longer a conversation, it's a bunch of angry modelers (some who don't even want to own the kit) with pitchforks and torches. 

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