Jump to content
ARC Discussion Forums

Jennings

AMK 1/48 F-14!!!

Recommended Posts

Ok guys.

 

Quick real world F-14D question.  At the moment of carrier trap touchdown and catching the hook, I am assuming that-

  1. spoilers and speedbrakes will still be out ?
  2. Tail surfaces pretty neutral?  Or leading edge down ?
  3. Weight shifting forward onto nose gear (launch bar up).
  4. Exhaust cans in open position with full thrust still applied in case of a bolter?
  5. Crew leaning forward against their straps.

Would that be a good way to make the most of all the features of the upcoming AMK kit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, gtypecanare said:

To end all debate someone please post comparisons to the official Grumman loft line or outer mold line drawings....PLEASE.

 

Hi,

 

I don't know if you know but someone here , a very well informed and clever guy, told us that Tamiya paid Grumman " a licence" to have access to their files...

 

Mr Tamiya send his team to bring back a whole case of documents.

 

So If I were you I would write a very very kind letter (with some bucks inside)  to Mr. Tamiya and ask him if he would be kind enough to publish them here...

 

So that it would end this debate once for all.

 

I am very serious of course.

 

Have a nice day.

 

Madcop. 😉

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bag_edge_2_zpswfsdd35t.jpg

 

1 hour ago, skuki said:

Nooooo..... really? not the greeeeens

thank god that the comparison pictures are perfect

I gather from the tone of this remark that you disagree with my conclusion.
I mentioned in my post that I was busy today (casting correction sets for various kits), so I just grabbed the first pic I saw to show the area in question.
I'll try to find time tomorrow to look through my Tomcat folder for pics showing that the green line is more correct.
In the mean time can you please post one pic showing the red line is correct?  :tumble:

 

:cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Zactoman said:

 

 

I gather from the tone of this remark that you disagree with my conclusion.
.....
In the mean time can you please post one pic showing the red line is correct?  :tumble:

:cheers:

 

No, but close.

 

I would do such a thing (post a picture) if I had F-14 D in my backyard and AMK kit in my hand.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, skuki said:

No, but close.

I would do such a thing (post a picture) if I had F-14 D in my backyard and AMK kit in my hand.

Having both would make it easier to diagnose the underlying reason that these problems exist, but not necessary to see and identify the problems themselves.

 

:cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, shion said:

another happy accident:

But where is the widest point on the rear section of the AMK kit? At the bladder intersection or further behind?

 

:cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, AndrewPerren said:

Ok guys.

 

Quick real world F-14D question.  At the moment of carrier trap touchdown and catching the hook, I am assuming that-

  1. spoilers and speedbrakes will still be out ?
  2. Tail surfaces pretty neutral?  Or leading edge down ?
  3. Weight shifting forward onto nose gear (launch bar up).
  4. Exhaust cans in open position with full thrust still applied in case of a bolter?
  5. Crew leaning forward against their straps.

Would that be a good way to make the most of all the features of the upcoming AMK kit?

1. Depending on landing speed spoilers 2 and 3 could be up but will retract on the moment of touch down. Spoilers were not normally deployed for carrier landings, only if the airspeed was slightly high, spoilers were normally in the retracted position during landings. Speed brake will be deployed until the moment of touch down, then retracted slowly (took about 2-4 seconds for speed brake to retract).

 

2. Tail surfaces (horizontal stabs) will be slightly leading edge down

 

3. Nose gear will compress about a half of the oleo, launch bar will remain up. Oleo compression depended on how hard the landing was.

 

4. Nozzles will pucker as pilot goes to full military power in case of a bolter.

 

5. Aircrew will be forward in their straps but you should not see much forward motion since they should have their straps tighten.

 

https://www.gettyimages.fi/detail/photo/an-f-14d-tomcat-makes-an-arrested-landing-on-the-royalty-free-image/145091661

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F8%2F8f%2FUS_Navy_050309-N-5832A-004_An_F-14D_Tomcat_makes_an_arrested_landing_on_the_flight_deck_aboard_the_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_Theodore_Roosevelt_%28CVN_71%29.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcommons.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFile%3AUS_Navy_050309-N-5832A-004_An_F-14D_Tomcat_makes_an_arrested_landing_on_the_flight_deck_aboard_the_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_Theodore_Roosevelt_(CVN_71).jpg&docid=xMDNfKS7aK_EqM&tbnid=D1NTSlnqhKWAVM%3A&vet=1&w=2100&h=1500&bih=720&biw=1222&ved=2ahUKEwiEy9DbjL_kAhWStVkKHc0OB1EQxiAoBnoECAEQJA&iact=c&ictx=1

 

hth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, madcop said:

 

Hi,

 

I don't know if you know but someone here , a very well informed and clever guy, told us that Tamiya paid Grumman " a licence" to have access to their files...

 

Mr Tamiya send his team to bring back a whole case of documents.

 

So If I were you I would write a very very kind letter (with some bucks inside)  to Mr. Tamiya and ask him if he would be kind enough to publish them here...

 

So that it would end this debate once for all.

 

I am very serious of course.

 

Have a nice day.

 

Madcop. 😉

 

 

George IS Mr. Tamiya. 

 

At least here on these forums he is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, shion said:

another happy accident:

 

69700795_381588315853705_207434863135109

 

70615257_381587562520447_438083132010895

 

 

So, what are we supposed to see here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, GW8345 said:

1. Depending on landing speed spoilers 2 and 3 could be up but will retract on the moment of touch down. Spoilers were not normally deployed for carrier landings, only if the airspeed was slightly high, spoilers were normally in the retracted position during landings. Speed brake will be deployed until the moment of touch down, then retracted slowly (took about 2-4 seconds for speed brake to retract).

 

2. Tail surfaces (horizontal stabs) will be slightly leading edge down

 

3. Nose gear will compress about a half of the oleo, launch bar will remain up. Oleo compression depended on how hard the landing was.

 

4. Nozzles will pucker as pilot goes to full military power in case of a bolter.

 

5. Aircrew will be forward in their straps but you should not see much forward motion since they should have their straps tighten.

 

https://www.gettyimages.fi/detail/photo/an-f-14d-tomcat-makes-an-arrested-landing-on-the-royalty-free-image/145091661

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F8%2F8f%2FUS_Navy_050309-N-5832A-004_An_F-14D_Tomcat_makes_an_arrested_landing_on_the_flight_deck_aboard_the_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_Theodore_Roosevelt_%28CVN_71%29.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcommons.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFile%3AUS_Navy_050309-N-5832A-004_An_F-14D_Tomcat_makes_an_arrested_landing_on_the_flight_deck_aboard_the_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_Theodore_Roosevelt_(CVN_71).jpg&docid=xMDNfKS7aK_EqM&tbnid=D1NTSlnqhKWAVM%3A&vet=1&w=2100&h=1500&bih=720&biw=1222&ved=2ahUKEwiEy9DbjL_kAhWStVkKHc0OB1EQxiAoBnoECAEQJA&iact=c&ictx=1

 

hth

 

If I understand correctly, this is a little variable and depends if you are talking about immediately before or after touchdown. 

 

1. Spoilers: The F-14 has a “direct lift control” system that was designed to allow the pilot to make adjustments on glide slope without changing AOA. This was utilized due to slow response time of the engines and utilized spoilers 2 and 3. Up to touchdown, this would be partially deployed. With the anti skid switch in the carrier position, this would fully retract immediately at touchdown. On ground based landings, they would extend to improve wheel braking. 

 

2. Speedbrake: I believe the speedbrake was at the pilots discretion, but often extended for the approach. This kept the power at a higher setting where the throttle curve was more responsive. These would retract effectively immediately at touch down when the pilot went full throttle. They were set to automatically retract past something like 60%. 

 

3. Nozzle position: Again, depends a little bit how close to touchdown you mean, but in general would be at the “low power” position (I actually forget if that’s open or close). The pilot would select full throttle at touchdown, but throttle response was about 2 seconds and the aircraft would be near the end of roll out or even at a full stop before the engine response/position caught up. 

 

4. Oleo: I don’t have much to add here. More compressed on the mains than the nose, but can’t say much about how much.  Launch bar definitely up. 

 

5. Tail planes: on average, slightly leading edge down, but dependent on current control inputs. Those inputs shouldn’t be so large they go past neural. 

Edited by ESzczesniak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I seriously am drawn ever closer to the sad conclusion that it indeed is less the broadness of the hips but rather a messed up, i.e. too steep slope of the area between tailroot and stabs. Everyone who has seen a Tomcat in real life up and close can see that this is just not right:

 

I really do get the impression that this might indeed be the cause for the hips apparently seeming too broad. Crap! This'll be a tough nutt to correct. At the moment I can't see any decent way to put that into the right shape. Just a little sanding won't help here. One has to somehow build the entire structure up but that will definitely screw the entire side. Shoot. ....

 

 

69501760_219533509011294_51457844259586048_n.jpg

Edited by bushande

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, AndrewPerren said:

Ok guys.

 

Quick real world F-14D question.  At the moment of carrier trap touchdown and catching the hook, I am assuming that-

  1. spoilers and speedbrakes will still be out ?
  2. Tail surfaces pretty neutral?  Or leading edge down ?
  3. Weight shifting forward onto nose gear (launch bar up).
  4. Exhaust cans in open position with full thrust still applied in case of a bolter?
  5. Crew leaning forward against their straps.

Would that be a good way to make the most of all the features of the upcoming AMK kit?

Bold/Underline is mine

1 hour ago, ESzczesniak said:

 

If I understand correctly, this is a little variable and depends if you are talking about immediately before or after touchdown. 

 

1. Spoilers: The F-14 has a “direct lift control” system that was designed to allow the pilot to make adjustments on glide slope without changing AOA. This was utilized due to slow response time of the engines and utilized spoilers 2 and 3. Up to touchdown, this would be partially deployed. With the anti skid switch in the carrier position, this would fully retract immediately at touchdown. On ground based landings, they would extend to improve wheel braking. 

 

2. Speedbrake: I believe the speedbrake was at the pilots discretion, but often extended for the approach. This kept the power at a higher setting where the throttle curve was more responsive. These would retract effectively immediately at touch down when the pilot went full throttle. They were set to automatically retract past something like 60%. 

 

3. Nozzle position: Again, depends a little bit how close to touchdown you mean, but in general would be at the “low power” position (I actually forget if that’s open or close). The pilot would select full throttle at touchdown, but throttle response was about 2 seconds and the aircraft would be near the end of roll out or even at a full stop before the engine response/position caught up. 

 

4. Oleo: I don’t have much to add here. More compressed on the mains than the nose, but can’t say much about how much.  Launch bar definitely up. 

 

5. Tail planes: on average, slightly leading edge down, but dependent on current control inputs. Those inputs shouldn’t be so large they go past neural. 

The OP stated at the moment of touchdown and grabbing the wire.

 

1. The F-110 engines did not have a slow response time, that was the TF-30 engines. Recommend you go to YouTube and watch some video's of F-14D landings, see how many have the spoilers up at the moment of touchdown.

 

2. The speedbrake switch is on the throttle quadrant, the pilot would close the speedbrakes when he advances the throttles to military at the moment of touch down. Idle was 62-78%, the engines were not at idle in the approach.

 

3. It is SOP to go to full military at the moment of touchdown in case of a bolter, thus the nozzles would be closed. From idle to full military took 4 seconds for engine spool up, during landing the throttle was usually in auto-approach mode which required the engines to be at 75-90%, usually the engines were right around 85-90% when the aircraft was at the ramp.

 

4. Main oleo's depression depends on how hard of a landing the aircraft experiences, normal depressions is at least half oleo for the mains and half for the nose gear.

 

5. At the moment of touchdown, leading edge down depending on AoA. After touchdown, horizontal leading edge will be down at least 18 inches in case of a bolter.

 

DLC does not come into play the moment the wheels hit the deck, one of the interlocks is that there must be weight off wheels, once the wheels hit the deck, DLC is disabled.

 

 

Edited by GW8345

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

Bold/Underline is mine

The OP stated at the moment of touchdown and grabbing the wire.

 

1. The F-110 engines did not have a slow response time, that was the TF-30 engines. Recommend you go to YouTube and watch some video's of F-14D landings, see how many have the spoilers up at the moment of touchdown.

 

2. The speedbrake switch is on the throttle quadrant, the pilot would close the speedbrakes when he advances the throttles to military at the moment of touch down. Idle was 62-78%, the engines were not at idle in the approach.

 

3. It is SOP to go to full military at the moment of touchdown in case of a bolter, thus the nozzles would be closed. From idle to full military took 4 seconds for engine spool up, during landing the throttle was usually in auto-approach mode which required the engines to be at 75-90%, usually the engines were right around 85-90% when the aircraft was at the ramp.

 

4. Main oleo's depression depends on how hard of a landing the aircraft experiences, normal depressions is at least half oleo for the mains and half for the nose gear.

 

5. At the moment of touchdown, leading edge down depending on AoA. After touchdown, horizontal leading edge will be down at least 18 inches in case of a bolter.

 

DLC does not come into play the moment the wheels hit the deck, one of the interlocks is that there must be weight off wheels, once the wheels hit the deck, DLC is disabled.

 

 

 

My apologies if it seemed like I was arguing. I was just trying to add information. These control surface changes are quick, but not instantaneous. It’s always seemed to me helpful to understand what is happening and why, so a person can figure out the exact moment they’re trying to depict. 

 

While the F110 engines were better, even in both linked photos, the speed brakes are still out. 

 

And the second linked photo photo as well as this one (https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_051115-N-7241L-012_An_F-14D_Tomcat_prepares_to_make_an_arrested_landing_on_the_flight_deck_of_the_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_Theodore_Roosevelt_(CVN_71).jpg) both show the inner spoiler panel used by the DLC out. It’s nearly retracted in the picture you posted, fully deployed in the photo above. 

 

But again, none of these transitions are instantaneous. So if you’re looking to depict the moment touchdown with the nose in the air still, it might be reasonable to see a bit of the onboard spolers deployed and brakes out. If your looking just as the bird is coming to a stop, both should be in. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, ESzczesniak said:

 

My apologies if it seemed like I was arguing. I was just trying to add information. These control surface changes are quick, but not instantaneous. It’s always seemed to me helpful to understand what is happening and why, so a person can figure out the exact moment they’re trying to depict. 

 

While the F110 engines were better, even in both linked photos, the speed brakes are still out. 

 

And the second linked photo photo as well as this one (https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_051115-N-7241L-012_An_F-14D_Tomcat_prepares_to_make_an_arrested_landing_on_the_flight_deck_of_the_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_Theodore_Roosevelt_(CVN_71).jpg) both show the inner spoiler panel used by the DLC out. It’s nearly retracted in the picture you posted, fully deployed in the photo above. 

 

But again, none of these transitions are instantaneous. So if you’re looking to depict the moment touchdown with the nose in the air still, it might be reasonable to see a bit of the onboard spolers deployed and brakes out. If your looking just as the bird is coming to a stop, both should be in. 

We are providing information for two different moments in time, I am providing information for once all three gear are on deck, you are providing information for the moment the main gear touches the deck (before weight on wheels), two different things.

 

Agree with that the control surfaces take a few seconds to close but by the time the nose gear hits the deck, the speed brake and spoilers are closed, the nozzles are closed and the pilot has already started pulling back on the stick.

 

Since the OP asked how much the nose gear depressed, I am considering that he is looking to do a diorama of the aircraft with all three gear on deck and before the aircraft comes to a stop. For that moment in time, the information I provided is correct.

 

In the pics I linked in my original post, you can see that the spoilers are retracted, in one of them, the nose gear has not touchdown.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bushande said:

I seriously am drawn ever closer to the sad conclusion that it indeed is less the broadness of the hips but rather a messed up, i.e. too steep slope of the area between tailroot and stabs. Everyone who has seen a Tomcat in real life up and close can see that this is just not right:

 

I really do get the impression that this might indeed be the cause for the hips apparently seeming too broad. Crap! This'll be a tough nutt to correct. At the moment I can't see any decent way to put that into the right shape. Just a little sanding won't help here. One has to somehow build the entire structure up but that will definitely screw the entire side. Shoot. ....

 

 

69501760_219533509011294_51457844259586048_n.jpg

 

In fairness to AMK, I think they did actually adjust the tooling from when the 3/4 "wide hips" sample pic was seen, but there's so much wrong with the outer aft section that short of retooling it completely, it would be a band-aid on a gunshot wound. If you look at the pics below, you'll see that compared to the genuine (top) the kit bladder literally twists in the aft section and is much thicker, particularly at the front compared to the actual plane.

 

Screen-Shot-2019-09-07-at-7-48-09-PM.png

 

 

The AMK kit is certainly cheaper, but it looks like they winged-it in a lot of areas. Tamiya's kit is more expensive, but then they went and struck a deal with Grumman for actual diagrams, which incurs a cost penalty. Sometimes you really do get what you pay for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks GW8345 & Eszczesniak for the info. Much appreciated. 

 

The “moment in time” I was visualising was hook and wire under tension, all gear on deck coming to a stop under rapid deceleration. 

 

Just trying to maximise the use of the “features” of the AMK kit but minimising the need for extensive kit surgery to give an authentic display pose.

 

Thanks again, very helpful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, AndrewPerren said:

Thanks GW8345 & Eszczesniak for the info. Much appreciated. 

 

The “moment in time” I was visualising was hook and wire under tension, all gear on deck coming to a stop under rapid deceleration. 

 

Just trying to maximise the use of the “features” of the AMK kit but minimising the need for extensive kit surgery to give an authentic display pose.

 

Thanks again, very helpful.

 

I’m planning a bit similar, but with the GWH 1/72 kit. I at least have a diorama or one on cat 4 and one just before touchdown. I do also like the idea of one on the deck with a wire under tension. Oh and then there’s an elevator lift...so much building. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, ChesshireCat said:

Obviously never taught the art of precision measurement.

Glt

 

Come on guys, please behave. No need for these kind of cuts. If you think the person doesn't understand what you're trying to say, then explain it. I was never taught the "art of precision measurement" and there are probably a lot here in that same boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GunsightOne said:

 

In fairness to AMK, I think they did actually adjust the tooling from when the 3/4 "wide hips" sample pic was seen, but there's so much wrong with the outer aft section that short of retooling it completely, it would be a band-aid on a gunshot wound. If you look at the pics below, you'll see that compared to the genuine (top) the kit bladder literally twists in the aft section and is much thicker, particularly at the front compared to the actual plane.

 

Screen-Shot-2019-09-07-at-7-48-09-PM.png

 

 

The AMK kit is certainly cheaper, but it looks like they winged-it in a lot of areas. Tamiya's kit is more expensive, but then they went and struck a deal with Grumman for actual diagrams, which incurs a cost penalty. Sometimes you really do get what you pay for.

 

Wow, those two pics sure highlight the differences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're so cool. Given my profession of 27 years (air traffic controller) I bow down your ability to compare weird angles of pictures you didn't take.....

 

I voted with my wallet and just ordered two.....

Edited by sideshow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...