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Morality of Hunting and Sport Fishing


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Not always, plenty of slot limits in salt on the east coast. Look up The MD striped bass laws sometime.

They do it on the stripers (striped bass) in California too, but mainly in the stocked lakes and rivers. On the ocean there it's a size limit like most species...except for sturgeon which should have slot limits nationwide.

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It seems to be one of those Ironies that hunters spend more time in and around and respecting nature than a lot of the people who never leave starbucks but will preach all about how much they love the outdoors, care about animals, and "respect nature" (U Wot M8?), and all those mean old hunters are monsters.

I know a few hunters that are completely perplexed by this. I know hunters/fishers who probably spend 30 days (sometimes more) out of a year out in the woods. You would be hard pressed to find the average jane has spent more than 30 days their whole lives total outdoors, and that is only getting worse.

Amen bother...amen!

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It seems to be one of those Ironies that hunters spend more time in and around and respecting nature than a lot of the people who never leave starbucks but will preach all about how much they love the outdoors, care about animals, and "respect nature" (U Wot M8?), and all those mean old hunters are monsters.

I know a few hunters that are completely perplexed by this. I know hunters/fishers who probably spend 30 days (sometimes more) out of a year out in the woods. You would be hard pressed to find the average jane has spent more than 30 days their whole lives total outdoors, and that is only getting worse.

+100

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It seems to be one of those Ironies that hunters spend more time in and around and respecting nature than a lot of the people who never leave starbucks but will preach all about how much they love the outdoors, care about animals, and "respect nature" (U Wot M8?), and all those mean old hunters are monsters.

I live adjacent to a very large patch of conservation land that is well stocked with deer, ducks, etc. Take a walk through the woods a week or two into hunting season, check out the dip cans, coffee cups, cigarette packs and general debris. Then head to the parking area and observe the beer cans, empty bottles of schnaps, food wrappers, etc. It's sad that there always seems to be a-holes who dump their trash in the woods but there is a huge spike in this during hunting season.

I used to think the same thing that you did but I'm disappointed to report back that this is not always true (at least here in my corner of the People's Republic).

Anyway, gotta run - my mocha-frappe-achino with skim and extra foam is ready at the counter.

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Killing for sport is wrong in my book. It has nothing to do with the Second Amendment or the size of the fish hook. Intentionally causing suffering to another living being as a way to amuse yourself is just wrong, and that includes "sport fishing" and releasing the fish. Imagine it from the fish's perspective? There are people who claim the utterly ridiculous notion that fish don't feel pain (not sure why they have a nervous system...) as a way to justify it to themselves.

Killing a wild animal for food is a different matter. We need to try to control populations of some animals that we've artificially allowed to overpopulate themselves (the whitetail deer, for example).

I don't tell anyone they shouldn't do something, but I still believe it's wrong. I don't do it anymore.

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I don't tell anyone they shouldn't do something, but I still believe it's wrong. I don't do it anymore.

I don't have any hard data to back it up but I do get the impression that more and more people feel the same way and that hunting (not sure about fishing) is very much a dying "sport". Just my observation that most of the folks hunting are older gents and you don't see very many kids out in the woods.

Again, this is just my observation from my local area, no idea about hunting's popularity (or lack thereof) in other parts of the country.

Edited by 11bee
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[quote name='Jennings' timestamp='1435931416' post='2723163'

I don't tell anyone they shouldn't do something, but I still believe it's wrong. I don't do it anymore.

I'm not as silent about some things as you apparently are, Jennings. If I see someone doing something that's just not morally right, I let them know why I oppose what they're doing in hopes that they might think about it, see the issue from another angle and change what they're doing. Back to fishing, even if it's legal to do so, catching and releasing a salmon—traditionally and presently a food fish—is just not right, especially when the runs of a particular species are depressed for some reason. That shouldn't be legal. That said, I tend to be very liberal about most issues involving morality, and don't get in anyone's face over something that's legal but, in my opinion, immoral. I do, however, write and talk at great length about some of these things, trying to shape opinion and change things for the better. As we're doing here and now.

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Happily surprised this thread has remained mostly civil :cheers:

I hunt a lot in the fall and early Winter in Iowa and Wisconsin along the Mississippi river area. Mostly deer and ducks. It's a great relaxing hobby for me, as is modeling! Ironic that when I model I dream about hunting and when I'm out there in the cold hunting I dream about modeling, LOL.

I'm getting my kids into hunting slowly. I start them out with hikes and scouting, BB guns, then small (.410, 20-gage) shotguns and a .22 rifle. It's great bonding time and gets them back to basics away from all the electronics and video games. I'm really baffled at the violence in video games (or TV and electronic media in general) but there is a stigma among part of the population about hunting... :huh:

I'm trying to provide a balanced outdoor experience for my kids and hunting is part of it. They are involved in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts also (as am ), Soccer, Football, and lots of family camping to get them outdoors, fishing too. My 9-year old daughter just got promoted to "master of campfire(starting)" in our family as she's gotten really good at it!

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I live adjacent to a very large patch of conservation land that is well stocked with deer, ducks, etc. Take a walk through the woods a week or two into hunting season, check out the dip cans, coffee cups, cigarette packs and general debris. Then head to the parking area and observe the beer cans, empty bottles of schnaps, food wrappers, etc. It's sad that there always seems to be a-holes who dump their trash in the woods but there is a huge spike in this during hunting season.

I used to think the same thing that you did but I'm disappointed to report back that this is not always true (at least here in my corner of the People's Republic).

I hate to see this too. It's not just true of hunters however. Go to any campground or outdoor event. Unfortunately there are slobs everywhere.

Anyway, gotta run - my mocha-frappe-achino with skim and extra foam is ready at the counter.

LOL. Not flaming you but I do get a kick out of the "Hipster Starbucks" crowd who detests hunting but litters with all those coffee cups and lids. That said, I enjoy a good Starbucks Mocha now and then :coolio:/> . And why do those hipsters wear my old hunting clothes anyway? :tumble:/>

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It seems to be one of those Ironies that hunters spend more time in and around and respecting nature than a lot of the people who never leave starbucks but will preach all about how much they love the outdoors, care about animals, and "respect nature" (U Wot M8?), and all those mean old hunters are monsters.

I know a few hunters that are completely perplexed by this. I know hunters/fishers who probably spend 30 days (sometimes more) out of a year out in the woods. You would be hard pressed to find the average jane has spent more than 30 days their whole lives total outdoors, and that is only getting worse.

Great words and I love your pic of Stannis with the coffee mug!

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I agree with you Dutycat.

Many years ago, I was an avid back country camper. I'd either hike in or canoe in. And I took a couple of Survival courses. I also practice 'no-trace' camping. ( One of my partners was the guy from Survivorman ) But I wanted to learn to hunt too. In the course we learned a little about snares and just a tiny bit about identifying sign and 'runs'. But I wanted to learn how to track, how to identify habitat and such.

But when I talked to hunters at my sport shooting club, their focus was on ... not hunting, but killing. They'd sit in a tree above a pile of bait and ... wait. Wait till something came into range and ...... fun eh?

Or when they went moose hunting, it was on Ski-doos. ... and the booze involved ... fer cryin' out loud. :doh: And the trash. Not environmentally responsible at all. If you pack it in, you can pack it out!

So the guys that will go to Texas, for instance, to the fenced in Game farm and bag a rare animal, whose only reason for being there is just to be a target, for some ... 'real man' ... well I agree with you Dutycat. The hunters that DO eat what they kill, that's different ... but for sport? There's no sport sitting in a tree stand.

There's no sport in having a guide tell you exactly where your 'prey' is, maybe even chained to a post ... and then you, more than likely not being a good shot, will slowly kill that beast.

That ... is disgusting.

... good on ya guys for keeping this civil and informative!

And Happy 4th of July to all you neighbours to the South!

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"And Happy 4th of July to all you neighbours to the South! "

Thanks for the well wishes. My country is an ongoing experiment that tries its best to do well for each of its 330 million inhabitants, though we've been known to stumbled from time to time. It's worth sticking with and developing for further generations.

Regarding hunting, Texas is not the example we want the rest of the world to know us by. The hunting/gun culture here is far from mainstream, marksmanship is generally poor and hunting is more of a past time than it is a means of experiencing nature. The popular devices I see are to bring convenience to the "hobby." I, for the life of me, can't see the sport in using a 10+ power scope to barely hit an animal standing still, 30 yards away. A little education in this area would go a long way :)

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I actually have as many neighbors here in Virginia who deer hunt with bows or crossbows as who use guns. There is definitely a "gun culture" in southwest Virginia, but it's not always all-pervasive when it comes to hunting.

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Hunt responsibly. I have a sports minded friend who went "north" to hunt caribou.

One group of "guides" chased the caribou into a lake, then the other "guide" took

the hunters out in an outboard aluminum boat, drove up to the swimming caribou so the

"hunters" could shoot them defenselessly. My grand parents hunted, but they ate the meat

or sold the pelts. This ain't sportsmanship, almost as bad as buying week old twinkies,

yoo hoos, donuts and baiting bears. I have nothing against hunting, real hunting, this

sportsmanship trophy hunting is outright murder. Sorry but it bothers me, and I love to

put big holes in paper targets with my SAA 45. It gives all peope who hunt or shoot responsibly

a bad rap. Rant off---John

Edited by john53
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I, for the life of me, can't see the sport in using a 10+ power scope to barely hit an animal standing still, 30 yards away. A little education in this area would go a long way :)/>/>/>

I cannot see it either, a 10X scope at 30 yards. Bad example, you would likely miss. Besides the obvious "shakey cam" problem, you would not likely be sighted in at that range (usually 50, 100, 200, 300 depending on your set-up). 10X magnification would usually be used for 200yards + and sighted in likely at such.

Edited by toadwbg
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I live adjacent to a very large patch of conservation land that is well stocked with deer, ducks, etc. Take a walk through the woods a week or two into hunting season, check out the dip cans, coffee cups, cigarette packs and general debris. Then head to the parking area and observe the beer cans, empty bottles of schnaps, food wrappers, etc. It's sad that there always seems to be a-holes who dump their trash in the woods but there is a huge spike in this during hunting season.

I used to think the same thing that you did but I'm disappointed to report back that this is not always true (at least here in my corner of the People's Republic).

Anyway, gotta run - my mocha-frappe-achino with skim and extra foam is ready at the counter.

go back and rethink your post. (I'm not disagreeing with you sir) Most of the trash will be found near water, and much of it is from bait fishermen and women. About a month ago I was just rigging up for an evening of bass fishing. A man and his two young kids walked up and asked me if I knew of a trash barrel close by. It seems that he and his kids picked up all the trash around two thirds of the lake. I told the kids I was very proud of them, and promptly reached in my wallet and gave them three one dollars bills for ice cream up the road. In my state most all bait fishermen are in violation of the state laws, and few even know it. They are probably 65% of the reasons we see invasive species in bodies of water these days. Guys like me spread another 25% (if not more) dues to the way we take care of our gear (I sanitize mine).

Thru the years I taught all my sons and daughters how to fish, and the sons how to hunt responsibly. My youngest son and I usually do four or five trips a year. Better than running the streets with a bunch of thugs!

gary

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Killing for sport is wrong in my book. It has nothing to do with the Second Amendment or the size of the fish hook. Intentionally causing suffering to another living being as a way to amuse yourself is just wrong, and that includes "sport fishing" and releasing the fish. Imagine it from the fish's perspective? There are people who claim the utterly ridiculous notion that fish don't feel pain (not sure why they have a nervous system...) as a way to justify it to themselves.

Killing a wild animal for food is a different matter. We need to try to control populations of some animals that we've artificially allowed to overpopulate themselves (the whitetail deer, for example).

I don't tell anyone they shouldn't do something, but I still believe it's wrong. I don't do it anymore.

1. I have not used a barbed hook in twenty years, and most folks fly fishing don't. I don't use a barb on a plug or rubber worm as well. Just learn to keep your rod tip up after the hook up.

2. some of those pretty little wild animals must be kept under constant control. Just look at the wild hog and coyote situation these days. Deer in my state are in numbers larger than at anytime since the last ice age. New Mexico has more elk than deer, and that's all wrong in anybody's book! Right now there are more leopards in Africa (per square mile)than at anytime in history. Ever wonder why the still have elephant hunts? They do it to sustain the herd. Coyotes are so bad these days that many states on require a hunting license, and farmers will ask me two or three times a year to come and shoot them (I have not shot one in close to three years).

gary

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2. some of those pretty little wild animals must be kept under constant control. Just look at the wild hog and coyote situation these days. Deer in my state are in numbers larger than at anytime since the last ice age. New Mexico has more elk than deer, and that's all wrong in anybody's book! Right now there are more leopards in Africa (per square mile)than at anytime in history. Ever wonder why the still have elephant hunts? They do it to sustain the herd. Coyotes are so bad these days that many states on require a hunting license, and farmers will ask me two or three times a year to come and shoot them (I have not shot one in close to three years).

gary

You might want to check your sources there mate. African elephant populations are difficult to know, however the International Union for the Conservation of Nature estimates around 440,000 elephants in 2012 compared to around 1.3 million in 1979. The African elephant is classed as Vunerable while the Asian elephant is now classed as endangered.

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You might want to check your sources there mate. African elephant populations are difficult to know, however the International Union for the Conservation of Nature estimates around 440,000 elephants in 2012 compared to around 1.3 million in 1979. The African elephant is classed as Vunerable while the Asian elephant is now classed as endangered.

elephant herds are culled twelve months a year by local governments. Somebody figured out that they could sell a permit for a huge sum of money years back, and let somebody else do the dirty work. When they do this, 98% of the elephant is harvested and used in the local populations. Otherwise they would eat themselves out of food in no time. I would pay very little attention to what some outside group has to say about the situation as they tend to have their own agenda. The money from an elephant hunt goes strait back in the elephant conservation (about 95% right now). Nobody really knows how many wild Asian elephant ever existed. Never was a huge amount in the first place.

gary

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So, I am generally pretty conservative to slightly moderate on most issues, and liberal on a couple, but something happened to me yesterday that was disturbing, and I wanted to share it with you and get your thoughts.

I am a firm believer in 2nd amendment protections for all of the traditional arguments, and have purchased a good bit of ammunition from a popular online vendor.

Out of the blue yesterday, I get this book from the owner of the business. It was is a quality, coffee table style full color book chronicling the owner's exploits over his lifetime hunting big game. I opened it, and there was a letter, and a personal, hand written paragraph from the owner telling me his business and travels would not be successful if it weren't for customers like me. He even commented that his dad had the same first name as me.

The book has a picture of the owner and a rifle on the cover, and advertised itself as a book of "short stories." As an avid reader, I thought, "nice." But as I thumbed through the book, it dawned on me that the "short stories" were not fiction, but personal accounts of hunting large, magnificent animals. I encountered page after page of full color photographs of dead elephants, lions, leopards, zebras, buffalo, and all sorts of other wild game taken over the course of decades by this man. Quite frankly it was sickening, and I was disturbed by the fact that I had been presented such a personalized gift proudly representing what I consider monstrous behavior.

Now, the gentleman is from an older generation than me, and I do realize that our societal attitudes towards animals have evolved over the years. This is a traditional hunting and fishing, pioneer spirit kind of guy whose dad brought him up this way and bought him his first shotgun at age 13. I don't really blame him for being what he is. He is a product of his time and environment, as we all are. But I thought it was presumptuous and bit out of line sending it to me. A practice shooter and home defense advocate is not at all the same thing as a hunter.

The incident got me thinking. Over the years, I have gradually formed the opinion that hunting for sport is immoral. More recently, I started thinking about fishing. The same principles seem to apply, especially if we are talking about sport fishing. I cannot see how taking Marlin, Sailfish, or any other fish primarily for sport is defensible morally.

If you are going to hunt or catch to eat, then I am completely okay with that as long as it is not a higher order species or threatened.

I guess it goes without saying that I am totally against any sort of whaling, or fisherman killing dolphins because they compete for fish, etc.

Thoughts please.

I'm with you Gil.

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So, I am generally pretty conservative to slightly moderate on most issues, and liberal on a couple, but something happened to me yesterday that was disturbing, and I wanted to share it with you and get your thoughts.

I am a firm believer in 2nd amendment protections for all of the traditional arguments, and have purchased a good bit of ammunition from a popular online vendor.

I'm the opposite: pretty left-wing, and disagree with some of the 2nd Amendment arguments.

But I will defend hunting as a basic human right. One of the more fundamental rights a person has is the right to procure their own food if they wish, without being forced to pay someone for it. If you want to grow tomatoes on your yard, that's your right. Go for a walk in the woods and pick some wild berries? YUM! If you want to dig up dandelion shoots in the spring for a salad, grab your trowel and get to work. (And you can start on my front lawn. BANGHEAD2.jpg )

And if you want to put meat on the table, you can go fishing or hunting. It is, in my opinion, a basic right.

Now, I have no problem with taking it away from individuals. If you show that you are not safe with a weapon, due to criminal activity or just general stupidity and incompetence, then you can't have one. (Try bringing down a moose with your bare hands. And take video, it should be amusing) If you break the laws that are in place to conserve the resource, like taking something out of season, in a sanctuary, undersized/oversized, etc., then you will have your right curtailed. Repeat offenders can be banned for life, I don't care. I have no problem with licensing, because the fees go toward paying the people who research the species being hunted, in order to better manage them, and for those who are out there enforcing the game and fish laws.

But to prevent society, as a whole, from fishing and hunting, is something I could never support. It is a right.

I have a problem with a lot of what goes on in the name of hunting. The beer swilling louts who fire at everything in sight are probably the worst. I don't believe in hunting predatory species, unless individual animals are proving to be a nuisance to farmers or to human lives. Predators are controlled by the population of their prey. Anyone who lives in southern Ontario is probably familiar with extremely high numbers of white-tailed deer, due to the fact at that wolves no longer exist here. Humans are now the only predator that is controlling the numbers. I prefer that people hunt with a firearm instead of a bow, because it ensures a cleaner kill, but I do understand the skill involved.

In the interests of disclosure, I fish, but have never hunted. Despite 10 years in a reserve infantry regiment, I can't hit the broad side of a barn. I think the only reason I got my Leading Infantryman badge was because the Colonel wanted to clear his desk that day and started signing everything within reach. Had I been smart, once I made Sergeant I should have started slipping my Sergeants Mess bar tabs in front of him, could have save big bucks. cool.gif

Edited by The Rat
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I'm the opposite: pretty left-wing, and disagree with some of the 2nd Amendment arguments.

You're not even an American. What concern are 2nd Amendment rights to you?. lol

Edited by DutyCat
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You're not even an American. What concern are 2nd Amendment rights to you?. lol

Technicaly we of North, South, and Central America are Americans! I am a U.S. citizen AND also

an American as are Canadians, Mexicans,Panamanians, Bolivians, Columbians, etc.---John

Edited by john53
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You're not even an American. What concern are 2nd Amendment rights to you?. lol

So non-American citizens aren't allowed to have an opinion? So much for "freedom", eh?

Jeez...

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