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Morality of Hunting and Sport Fishing


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So, I am generally pretty conservative to slightly moderate on most issues, and liberal on a couple, but something happened to me yesterday that was disturbing, and I wanted to share it with you and get your thoughts.

I am a firm believer in 2nd amendment protections for all of the traditional arguments, and have purchased a good bit of ammunition from a popular online vendor.

Out of the blue yesterday, I get this book from the owner of the business. It was is a quality, coffee table style full color book chronicling the owner's exploits over his lifetime hunting big game. I opened it, and there was a letter, and a personal, hand written paragraph from the owner telling me his business and travels would not be successful if it weren't for customers like me. He even commented that his dad had the same first name as me.

The book has a picture of the owner and a rifle on the cover, and advertised itself as a book of "short stories." As an avid reader, I thought, "nice." But as I thumbed through the book, it dawned on me that the "short stories" were not fiction, but personal accounts of hunting large, magnificent animals. I encountered page after page of full color photographs of dead elephants, lions, leopards, zebras, buffalo, and all sorts of other wild game taken over the course of decades by this man. Quite frankly it was sickening, and I was disturbed by the fact that I had been presented such a personalized gift proudly representing what I consider monstrous behavior.

Now, the gentleman is from an older generation than me, and I do realize that our societal attitudes towards animals have evolved over the years. This is a traditional hunting and fishing, pioneer spirit kind of guy whose dad brought him up this way and bought him his first shotgun at age 13. I don't really blame him for being what he is. He is a product of his time and environment, as we all are. But I thought it was presumptuous and bit out of line sending it to me. A practice shooter and home defense advocate is not at all the same thing as a hunter.

The incident got me thinking. Over the years, I have gradually formed the opinion that hunting for sport is immoral. More recently, I started thinking about fishing. The same principles seem to apply, especially if we are talking about sport fishing. I cannot see how taking Marlin, Sailfish, or any other fish primarily for sport is defensible morally.

If you are going to hunt or catch to eat, then I am completely okay with that as long as it is not a higher order species or threatened.

I guess it goes without saying that I am totally against any sort of whaling, or fisherman killing dolphins because they compete for fish, etc.

Thoughts please.

Edited by DutyCat
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So long as it is done in a well managed and sustainable way I see no issue what so ever. Sport hunting and fishing especially in the US has over the years done a great deal of good for not only the target animals but also the other critters that make their homes in the same areas.

I do agree it was a bit presumptuous and probably ill advised for the gentleman to have sent the book out without first making sure the recipetnts have an interest in that sort of thing.

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I see your point. I'm breaking into axis and deer hunting soon because I feel more responsible killing my own meat from the wild than i do buying packaged meat thats lived a cruel life in captivity. Eventually i want to move as close to vegetarianism as i can.

I feel that the most stunning part of exotic hunting is that it seems like an eccentric status symbol. Considering how threatened many animals are because of over hunting and poaching, this type of hunting seems more like an eccentric guy waving his richard around.

Were the animals hunted in the wild or from reservations? Were they endangered?

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I feel that the most stunning part of exotic hunting is that it seems like an eccentric status symbol. Considering how threatened many animals are because of over hunting and poaching, this type of hunting seems more like an eccentric guy waving his richard around.

Agreed 100%. I stopped hunting years ago because I lost the taste for venison, however I have no issue with those who hunt / fish and eat what they kill. That's what it is supposed to be about. But hunting an exotic just so you can get a couple of hero shots and mount a head on your wall is pretty pathetic.

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I have never been hunting and have little interest in it, so I can't explain the attraction beyond food.

Some big game hunting, and in fact a lot of that done today is for population control, a part of wildlife management so it does serve a purpose. In fact in some parts of Africa it serves a dual purpose, wildlife management and fund raising to support the agencies that maintain the preserves. People pay a lot of money to hunt these animals, and if it wasn't paying hunters killing some animals, it would be game wardens doing the killing.

Of course much of the sport hunting of the past had no justification beyond rich guys can do pretty much as they please, and many of them apparently wanted to dress up their homes with animal carcasses, it was simply sport.

I don't know as much about the fishing, but I thought a lot of the current stuff was catch and release. I guess it is still harassing, but at least not killing just for killing.

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I care nothing for hunting or fishing, but I don't have to do so to eat. I have nothing against people who do hunt and fish except that if they are going to bring me some of their stuff, please cook it first because I don't cook. OTOH, as for the big game hunts, my understanding is that those are organized and well managed as population control, a necessary evil. I also understand that the animal is given to and used by local villages. While we may not eat elephant, etc., they do.

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So, I am generally pretty conservative to slightly moderate on most issues, and liberal on a couple, but something happened to me yesterday that was disturbing, and I wanted to share it with you and get your thoughts.

I am a firm believer in 2nd amendment protections for all of the traditional arguments, and have purchased a good bit of ammunition from a popular online vendor.

Out of the blue yesterday, I get this book from the owner of the business. It was is a quality, coffee table style full color book chronicling the owner's exploits over his lifetime hunting big game. I opened it, and there was a letter, and a personal, hand written paragraph from the owner telling me his business and travels would not be successful if it weren't for customers like me. He even commented that his dad had the same first name as me.

The book has a picture of the owner and a rifle on the cover, and advertised itself as a book of "short stories." As an avid reader, I thought, "nice." But as I thumbed through the book, it dawned on me that the "short stories" were not fiction, but personal accounts of hunting large, magnificent animals. I encountered page after page of full color photographs of dead elephants, lions, leopards, zebras, buffalo, and all sorts of other wild game taken over the course of decades by this man. Quite frankly it was sickening, and I was disturbed by the fact that I had been presented such a personalized gift proudly representing what I consider monstrous behavior.

Now, the gentleman is from an older generation than me, and I do realize that our societal attitudes towards animals have evolved over the years. This is a traditional hunting and fishing, pioneer spirit kind of guy whose dad brought him up this way and bought him his first shotgun at age 13. I don't really blame him for being what he is. He is a product of his time and environment, as we all are. But I thought it was presumptuous and bit out of line sending it to me. A practice shooter and home defense advocate is not at all the same thing as a hunter.

The incident got me thinking. Over the years, I have gradually formed the opinion that hunting for sport is immoral. More recently, I started thinking about fishing. The same principles seem to apply, especially if we are talking about sport fishing. I cannot see how taking Marlin, Sailfish, or any other fish primarily for sport is defensible morally.

If you are going to hunt or catch to eat, then I am completely okay with that as long as it is not a higher order species or threatened.

I guess it goes without saying that I am totally against any sort of whaling, or fisherman killing dolphins because they compete for fish, etc.

Thoughts please.

I gave up "put and take" fishing 30 plus years ago. I LOVE to eat trout but would much rather catch and release.

I had gotten rather heavily into fly fishing and fly tying but like anything else it is all about money, need the

super deluxe hybrid carbon fiber rods and reels, super light waders and all trhe high priced options. Which in turn

you really don't. The fish will take a fly on a mid priced Cortland rod just as fast as an overpriced Orvis Trident

rod. As far as sailfish I don't get it or have an interest in it. Hunting I gave up years ago, don't like the gamey

taste, but something needs to be done to thin the heards, way too many coyotes, turkeys, and critters in general that

rabies is now almost as bad as measles and small pox....sarcasm not intended.---John

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I grew up working on a Salmon boat so I view things a bit different. I don't understand fishing for Salmon on the river when they go to spawn. Sure, I got it, most anglers can't afford or don't want to pay to fish cold saltwater, but that along with the damning, drought, and irrigation of the rivers is causing the supply to dwindle. This makes me a bit of a conservationist. For this reason I also don't understand fishing for most species of shark. As I grew older and research started to filter through how important these were most of small boat commercial guys were all for the California ban on fishing for white sharks in 1994. Mako, Thresher, Salmon....no issue, but trophy fishing is something I never understood. Likewise I don't hunt what I don't eat save for population control. Coyotes, prairie dogs, deer, etc.....fair game and fun shooting.

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Everything I hunt and harvest, gets eaten by me and my family. If I can make a trophy from it, I'll do so. But I have little interest in the large game animals one would find in a zoo. Just not my thing.

-Jeff

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If you are going to hunt or catch to eat, then I am completely okay with that as long as it is not a higher order species or threatened.

I guess it goes without saying that I am totally against any sort of whaling, or fisherman killing dolphins because they compete for fish, etc.

Thoughts please.

Gee, thank you!

That's nice; good for you.

Given your opinions, I'm pretty sure you don't care what anyone else thinks.

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Don't hunt myself. Don't mind those who do. These days I am actually people go out away from a Wifi connection at all. I feel we are losing core skills, and thus losing those important things that need to be remembered for civilization purposes (IE electricity doesn't just come from a wall, and meat from a supermarket)

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Gee, thank you!

That's nice; good for you.

Given your opinions, I'm pretty sure you don't care what anyone else thinks.

Why would I not care what others think? In fact, in this very thread, I learned that some hunting of big game in Africa is for wildlife management purposes. Now whether it is legit or a convenient excuse, I don't know. Nature is generally pretty good at seeking its own balance among its creatures. Populations increase as resources allow and then balance out. Yes it often involves disease or suffering, so if we can prevent some suffering through limited hunting, maybe that is a good thing. But it can be awful self serving. I don't see us hunting lizards because too many of them will starve if we don't cull the population. Snakes are only culled when they become a nuisance. Nobody cares if they crawl off into the woods hungry and die. Of course it is hard to find snakes and lizards, as they are small and hide, but you get my point. Here in FL, they are about to have an alligator hunt, and maybe a bear hunt, supposedly for population management purposes.

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I'm getting too old for hard core hunting these days, but there was a time when I was in the field three or four days a week upland bird hunting. I still love the sport, and still love the lore of grouse hunting. Not much of a deer hunter, but have taken a couple here and there. I just never like the flavor of venison much even though it is far better for me to eat than other forms of red meat. Turkey hunting is my next big gig. I quit grouse hunting a few years back due to the decimated population (hard winters and a drought).

If you know me well, you will also know that I'm on the water at least four days a week in warmer months. Still you might just find me fishing in December, but usually take January and February off. So I guess I'm a ten month a year fisherman in my old age. Yet there was a time when I was a twelve month fisherman. I mostly fly fish, and it's a passion. I've fished in thirty states, and will probably do forty before I'm dead. How many fish do I keep? Zero! Trust me I've had 100 fish days catching pan fish, and folks have often asked me to bring them some. I use nothing but barbless hooks, and rarely loose a fish if I do my part right. I'm rigged up for light saltwater, but have zero interest these days. Salt water is catch and release almost 100% of the time in case you all never knew. Party boats and things like that are another story, but you'll also find that the fish caught are eaten.

Perhaps a few of the negatives ought to wade in my boots

gary

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Don't hunt myself. Don't mind those who do. These days I am actually people go out away from a Wifi connection at all. I feel we are losing core skills, and thus losing those important things that need to be remembered for civilization purposes (IE electricity doesn't just come from a wall, and meat from a supermarket)

That people are forfeiting skills related to independent living alarms me. This type of education is being lost to all except a shrinking minority. Urban living has its advantages, but losing your means to break away from it isn't one.

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I used to hunt as a kid (rabbits, foxes, kangaroos) but got sick of watching furry critters die through my rifle scope. Even though some of these animals are exotic pests in Oz, I just lost interest in killing things.

Still a keen fisherman, mostly fly fishing for trout and I do a little part-time guiding for a local farm-stay. All catch and release. My catch and release methods have improved dramatically over the years to maximise fish survival rate. I love the stalking & skills aspects of fly-fishing for wary trout and as Exhausted says, it keeps me in touch with the great outdoors.

As for shooting elephants, lions, giraffes etc - I could and would not do it.

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Personally I only hunt what I want to eat, mostly hares, ducks, deer and the occasional roo. Farmer's will sometimes tell us they have a kangaroo or fox problem and if they have the appropriate permits we will help them out, but killing an elephant, lion, deer or anything for s#its and giggles is not cricket in my book. The only question I have is "Why do you kill it?" Give me a rational, humane answer to that.

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Salt water is catch and release almost 100% of the time in case you all never knew.

I've only fished in the waters off the West Coast and I've never seen or heard of a catch and release guy. Are you talking about the gulf or the those halibut guys up in AK?

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Where I grew up, the slang for Deer was "government beef".

I don't see this as a "right or wrong" type of thing. I hunted plenty when I was younger, fished a lot too. I quit when I went home once and had to start all over with ammo, clothes, permits, etc.

But, then, me and my neighbors also regularly butchered cows, steers, chickens, hogs, etc, etc.

I lived in an area that had to occasionally add "5th deer" permits for each 4 person hunting party, and to also sometimes add extra days in a season, or an entire extra deer season,,,,,,all in an effort to keep the population down to a level that let the herd survive in the "frozen Tundra". A lot of us farmers also left corn unpicked throughout the winter during the worst years,,,,whatever the deer left, we'd chop into silage just before the spring manure spreading and plowing.

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Why would I not care what others think? In fact, in this very thread, I learned that some hunting of big game in Africa is for wildlife management purposes. Now whether it is legit or a convenient excuse, I don't know.

It's the same there as it is here. The fee's, taxes, etc add up to millions and that directly supports conservation. Essentially, those paying to kill are helping maintain the sustainability of the species. Even more so for certain species in Africa such as the white rhino which has encouraged private landowners to reintroduce and protect the animal. The problem lies with the emotional attachment we have to animals that most of the world does not have. http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/20/us/conservation-hunting-right-or-wrong/index.html

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I couldn't take a life myself, but kudos to those who do it responsibly and sustainably. Their efforts go a long way towards natural conservation.

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I'm 77, grew up in Western Washington, spent the last 51 years living in Alaska, and have hunted and fished all my life. I stopped hunting about 10 years ago, and slowed a lot in the years up to that. Never hunted just for "sport." Only for the meat. Even when the snowshoe hares were at the peak of their last 11-year cycle, when I was snaring them in my backyard, I ate the meat of every one I shot or trapped. I've never hunted for a "trophy," and have never understood trophy hunting, even though some of my friends have mounts and skins on their walls.

As for fishing (which is just another kind of hunting), I've avidly done it most of my life. My father was a "meat" fisherman, fishing only when he ran out of fish in the freezer, so that rubbed off on me. When I was in my 50s and 60s, I started fly fishing, which took me into catch-and-release fishing, mainly in remote Alaska, where keeping fish wasn't practical. But even when it felt like fun, I never felt quite right about it. I only do it now when I catch a fish that would be illegal to keep. I've also stopped sorting through fish, throwing them back until I catch a "big" one. This is done on the Kenai River with king salmon, where catch-and-release fishing is used as a "tool" to provide anglers with a "fishing opportunity." Even when the king salmon runs are dismal, as they've been for the past six years, playing with them on their spawning grounds remains an option. I strongly oppose this. Studies have shown that about 8 percent of the king salmon that are caught and released die without having spawned. Even if they live, I think it's immoral to make a fish (or any animal) fight for its life, when it's already fighting for its life just to reproduce its kind. It's all about money. The "sport-fishing industry, which includes vast numbers of guides, lodges and transport businesses, has been pulling the strings of fisheries managers and fishing organizations for years. Just try to change any aspect of catch-and-release fishing, and see how far you get. Doing that would reduce fishing opportunity and threaten the entire industry, as well as all the state and federal agencies that depend on the license fees and taxes. Don't get me wrong. I love to catch salmon, when the runs are healthy. But I now eat every one I catch. That said, if you want to catch and release a so-called "sport" fish, such as a rainbow trout, you go right ahead. Just don't ask me to go along.

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to the first poster that asked about salt water and keeping your catch. Many do it, and you'll find most are fishing for snapper and trout with an occasional grouper. Marlin, sail fish, bone fish, and permit are rarely kept. Also many areas have slot limits and laws preventing culling your take for a larger fish. I personally will turn anyone in that is violating these laws. On the otherhand I'm dead set against tournaments like bass fishing and some others.

gary

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It seems to be one of those Ironies that hunters spend more time in and around and respecting nature than a lot of the people who never leave starbucks but will preach all about how much they love the outdoors, care about animals, and "respect nature" (U Wot M8?), and all those mean old hunters are monsters.

I know a few hunters that are completely perplexed by this. I know hunters/fishers who probably spend 30 days (sometimes more) out of a year out in the woods. You would be hard pressed to find the average jane has spent more than 30 days their whole lives total outdoors, and that is only getting worse.

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to the first poster that asked about salt water and keeping your catch. Many do it, and you'll find most are fishing for snapper and trout with an occasional grouper. Marlin, sail fish, bone fish, and permit are rarely kept. Also many areas have slot limits and laws preventing culling your take for a larger fish. I personally will turn anyone in that is violating these laws. On the otherhand I'm dead set against tournaments like bass fishing and some others.

gary

I gotcha brother, Billfish make sense and a few other species like tarpon, but the vast majority of saltwater fishing is catch and eat. Culling, trout, slot limit....that's freshwater.

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I gotcha brother, Billfish make sense and a few other species like tarpon, but the vast majority of saltwater fishing is catch and eat. Culling, trout, slot limit....that's freshwater.

Not always, plenty of slot limits in salt on the east coast. Look up The MD striped bass laws sometime.

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