2, 4 D on the environment

[chuck540z3]

Hi Guys,

I have a cabin retreat in British Columbia, Canada, which backs onto maybe 100 acres of Alphalfa and a LOT of dandelions! Dandelions love it up here in the Great White North when it is briefly green and for the most part, they are everywhere. Next to this dandelion factory, I strive to try and keep them under control. Maybe I shouldn't?

When I grew up way too many years ago, it was standard practise to nuke the little buggers with a variety of dandelion killers, which as far as I know, has always been the herbicide, 2,4 D. In those days we nuked just about everything with no regard for our personal safety or the environment, mostly because we didn't know any better. Anyway, my fairly large lawn at this cabin is full of dandelions, which my dear wife is always giving me heck for. As a sidebar, when it comes to tree hugging views on most things, I am very much a pessimist and I don't believe a lot of the hesteria about global warming and the effects of pesticides. Not to get too political, I am also an oilman and I drill for oil and gas beneath our frozen tundra for hydrocarbons that were generated in the Tropics. The Tropics. Yes, I know that sounds absurd in Canada, but the fossil record proves it. Trust me, there are not a lot of ferns and other tropical plants in Canada right now, but I can show you many fossils beneath where I live that proves we were once located in a tropical forest and swamp. Dinosaurs would not do well at -30 C, so there was a major form of natural global warming long, long before humans and human caused C02 emissions came on the scene, but I digress.

I have read quite a bit about 2, 4 D and its effects on the environment, but this has been primarily through Google, which isn't always neutral on any subject. Many sites claim that this stuff is pure evil poison and should be banned, while other sites indicate that with proper precautions like gloves and a respirator, the half life of this herbicide is only a few days and the application of it is no big deal and it is safe and should be trusted. Normally I might just go to the latter conclusion, but I own a Labrador Retreiver that, like most dogs, is very much a part of my family. Like any dog, she walks onto my grass to do her business, then comes inside the house to often lick her paws. This is clearly not a good thing within a week or two of 2,4 D application, but how about 3 weeks, or 4 weeks out? Is 2,4 D safe or not, if it is applied a week or two before exposure to humans or pets?

Right now, I'm erring on the side of caution and I don't use the stuff- ever. Meanwhile, my lawn is about 50% dandelions and 50% grass. My wife is not happy with me! Your thoughts, with hopefully some independent technical data on the subject, would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Chuck

Edited July 11, 2015 by chuck540z3

[Finn]

Fortunately for me i've only had a few dandelions to worry about so i just pry them out, i love the sound of their roots snapping anyway here are some other tips to use:

http://www.plantea.com/dandelions.htm

Jari

[Emvar]

Chuck..... I've been using weedbegone for a while on my miniature urban settlement. Works like a charm. But it will cost you, in the end what is your poison and what are you willing to pay? Reality is that pesticides are harmful whether you believe it or not..... really nothing to do with global warming.

[dnl42]

Dandelions? What, aren't there any Greeks around? We thrive on χόρτα!

[RotorheadTX]

Apparently, you've never heard of Alan Ayckbourn, The Norman Conquests, or dandelion wine. Tut tut.

[Jennings]

When you mow it, it's all green. Plant some aggressive grass seed (ask at the DIY store) and let it do the job. I'm not sure what the fixation we seem to have with perfect lawns is all about. Green is green.

[11bee]

This stuff is poison. In every sense of the word. Just read the Safety Data Sheet that you should easily be able to find online. If applied correctly, you are minimizing (but certainly not eliminating) exposure to sensitive receptors (ie - you, your kids, your pets, etc) but you are still being exposed and this stuff is still getting into the water table in one concentration or another.

All depends if you are ok with the above. If so, have at it and enjoy a nice green yard (until the weeds show up again, then repeat the process).

If not, there are alternatives, as have been previously noted in this thread.

[chuck540z3]

Thanks guys. This is exactly what I thought- and wanted.

[Unglued]

Hey, Chuck. I've lived on a 1-acre lot in the woods in Alaska since 1978. A lawn would seem a out place here, not to mention the maintenance involved, so my wife and I elected to just "let 'er go." We planted grass first. I used to just let it grow and then burn it off the following spring, but after a couple of decades of this, and a couple of close calls with it almost getting away and into the neighboring spruce trees, I decided to start whacking it down. For the past 10 years or so, I've been beating it down to dirt level with a weed eater twice a year, once in spring, once in late fall. Over time, the surviving plants have evolved to stunted specimens that know better than to stick their heads up. I get a spectacular crop of dandelions. In the almost 30 years that I've been writing an outdoor column for a local newspaper, I've written about dandelions many times, always in praise of them. Below is the latest.

Cheers,

Les

“An Outdoor View” column for May 15, 2015

A sure sign of spring

by

Les Palmer

Some people see a robin chirping or hear a goose honking and say it must be spring. Kenai Peninsula residents trying to turn onto the Sterling Highway might consider an impenetrable stream of traffic to be a sign of spring. To those who live near the Kenai River, one sign of spring is the stench that’s on the breeze when the winter ice retreats enough to expose salmon carcasses along the river banks. As for me, spring hasn’t truly arrived until I see a dandelion in bloom.

Talk about perfect timing, it happened while I was racking my brain for something to write about this week. On the south side of our house in Sterling on Wednesday, May 13, a single dandelion bloomed. Spring is here!

In some respects, my favorite sign of spring resembles the tourist traffic. Like the persistent dandelion, the traffic returns every year. While most of the locals rant and whine about it, there’s nothing they can do about it.

I disagree with claims by alarmists that the dandelion is a menace to the planet.  It thrives only in “disturbed” areas, such as the edges of roads. If you’ve driven from Sterling to Cooper Landing in mid-June, you’ve probably noticed that the disturbed highway you’re on is bordered with golden dandelion blossoms. It’s encouraging to know that no government funds were spent on the colorful landscaping.

Many people mindlessly wage an unending war against dandelions.  They denigrate the plant by calling it a noxious weed.  They spray hazardous chemicals on their lawns and driveways, even though some of these chemicals end up in our lakes, streams and drinking water. But dandelions defy extermination. Their seeds can travel on a breeze for five miles. Regardless of what you do, they come back.

My love for dandelions knows no bounds. Several years ago, I broadcast dandelion seeds around my yard on purpose. Except for a few pesky patches of clover, my yard is now solid dandelion plants. While other people struggle to keep a few expensive greenhouse-started flowers alive, I go fishing.

Call me crazy. U.S. homeowners use something like 30 percent of the water to keep their lawns green. I, on the other hand, have never had to water or fertilize my dandelions. Who is crazy?

Dandelions are — or should be — a welcome sight to Alaskans who have wintered in a bleak, black-and-white world. They’re not only the first blooms of spring, but the last of fall. Their gold color contrasts well with green, one of the few other colors available in spring.

Try as I might, I can’t think of anything bad about dandelions. They’re free. You don’t have to go somewhere to find them; they’ll come to you. They don’t require weeding. Truly independent immigrants to Alaska, they fend for themselves. I’d go so far as to suggest that they deserve to be Alaska’s State Flower.

I confess to having been part of the war against dandelions in my past life. Growing up, my family did everything within its means to destroy them. A few months ago, I visited two of the houses where I spent my youth. I was heartened to see that both yards were still blessed by lush crops of dandelions, despite the passage of six decades.

Someday the war against dandelions will end. I’m betting the dandelions will win.

:lol:

[Horrido]

Chuck,

This is coming from somebody who's in the agricultural kill-all-things undesirable business:

How big is the yard? Try to use 2,4-D, once, exactly according to the label. Shoot for a humid, low-breeze, overcast day between 65-85 F (18-30 C). If you get good kill results, wait and try again mid-spring (or when the flower-heads start noticeably popping up) the following year. Frequent repeat use will result in resistance. The application should be okay to allow children and pets out once it is dried (roughly 2-4 hours after application depending on weather). If you don't get terminal results on the plants (not just agonized twisting), noticeable within two weeks, they are likely resistant to 2,4-D and there's no point in wasting your time and money (I'll see if there are any other decent broad-leaf herbicides with different modes of action). Regardless, keep pulling the flower heads before they can go to seed, thereby preventing their spread. Ideally, you should have three broad-leaf herbicides each with a different mode of action you would use once over the course of three years.

If you don't mind dead spots, you could try Round-up/glyphosate, Diquat, or even the home-made vinegar/dish soap/Epsom salt mixture. The issue here, is, dandelions are a perennial, meaning they overwinter and come back year after year, so it's important to make sure the root gets dead. The best option is to purchase a decent weed digger < http://www.amazon.co...9/dp/B002ASA7E4 >, water the lawn, and dig the beggers out when the soil is moist. Yes, it takes forever; yes, you can beat them.

As dnl42 points out, you can eat dandelions. Look for recipes and potential health issues regarding consuming dandelions, and wash the dandelions well.

Another option is to convert the yard totally over to local native plants.

Once the weeds are suppressed, keep the grass cut long and well-watered and fertilized to keep weed seed from reestablishing and allow the lawn to out-compete and shade germinating weeds.

Happy hunting!

Edited July 12, 2015 by Horrido

[chuck540z3]

Thanks for the additional tips guys!

My yard is pretty big- about 3/4's of an acre- and as mentioned before, I back onto a dandelion factory of an alfalfa field of over 100 acres. I know I can't win and eradicate all the dandelions, but it would be nice to try and control them a bit more than I currently am. Based upon what I read above (and on the 'net), I think a good application of 2,4 D in the spring when these weeds really get going is probably good enough for the entire year, especially when I know that I (and my dog) won't be out for a few weeks. That's OK for me, but maybe not the environment?

The other issue that Les brings up is that I think people are starting to accept dandelions as natural and their existence in our lawns, especially on a vacation property, is no big deal any more. I sure hope so, because I'm sick and tired of fighting this losing battle.

[Horrido]

Here's a list of decent websites. The first one, at the bottom, contains an awesome chart for herbicides and weeds controlled. The important thing to research is the mode of action, even though the chemicals may be different, if the mode of action of how it kills the plant is the same, the weed may still become tolerant/resistant to the herbicide:

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/Gardennotes/552.pdf

https://www.agry.purdue.edu/turfnew/pubs/ay-9.pdf

http://extension.illinois.edu/lawntalk/weeds/broadleaf_weed_problems_in_lawns.cfm

One of the website mentions it may be better to apply herbicide in the fall for dandelion control, as the plant goes dormant it runs nutrients (and herbicide) into the roots, it's cooler so as not to harm the lawn, and the lawn will continue to grow and fill in the dead space after the dandelion dies.

[Jennings]

Man-made petrochemical poisons, no matter whether used according to the directions or not, are man-made petrochemical poisons. They don't belong on the ground, in the water, or in the air. Period. This fixation with perfect grass is killing us and everything around us.

[Moggy]

Jennings - +1!