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Bf 110 nose differences


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I've noticed a couple different versions of Bf 110 noses in photographs. In 1:48 scale, the Revell G version comes with one version, and the Eduard G2 comes with another version. The version in the Revell kit seems less common, while the version in Eduard's kit seems more common on most Bf 110s.

Could someone please enlighten me on which version had which nose, or why some had one instead of the other? Was it a manufacturer thing or a field mod?

Thanks.

Aaron

Edited by jester292
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There were 2 basic nose armament configurations. Early models carried four Mg17 7.92mm machine guns (basically a Mg34) and starting with the "G" model (but not all) two Mk 108 30mm cannon (the version with the pig nose).And all versions had the twin 20mm cannon in the lower fuselage.

Now not knowing which version you'd like to build or which kit you are working with (or shopping for) I'd have to say refer to your reference. I did notice that some of the revel Kits come with two noses.

Curt

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Thanks guys. I was referring to the "Pig nose" and the round nose. The round nose seems to be found on every version. The pig nose seems to be randomly seen on G-2s and G-4s. I just want to know which G-2s and G-4s had the pig nose.

I wasn't referring to the armament, but that clears up a second question I had.

Aaron

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Well check out this pig-nosed 110...

It's obviously configured as a bomber destroyer. bf110g43.jpg

I read on wiki that the mk108 cannon were fitted by some units onto their G-2s. I found a profile on wings palette of a G-3, but that's for LR recon.

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The 'original' gun cover on the nose (110B-110D) had apertures for the four staggered MG 17s. The 110E (which was integrated into the 110D production lines in the autumn of 1940) had a square air intake for the cockpit heater, between the central guns. All subsequent 110s would include this feature. The camera, shown in the first technical drawing that Netz included was not a standard fitting. The 110G (the 110F was plagued by engine fires/failures and soon superceded) had the same gun cover as the 110E, but what you're calling the 'pig nose' came later. The Mono-vell kit offers two of these in styrene (and the earlier style in a resin supplement in their 85-4164 kit with the ZG 1 'Wespengeschwader' box art).

The 30mm MK108 nose was not common. It required a (day) bomber interceptor to close to suicidally-close range, and its flash was blinding at night. Many of the Nachtjäger pilots came to prefer the cockpit-mounted, upward firing 'Schragemusik' MG-FF/M gun arrangement pioneered by Paul Mahle.

When one thinks about the weight - and drag - of all the accessories on the day bomber-interceptor versions, you can understand why many of these have the upper nose guns removed. The lower guns had been replaced with the MG 151/20 (which was belt-fed, and a better gun than the earlier MG-FF/M, whose drum magazines had to be changed by the Bordfunker), then they most-often had another twin-pack of these 20mms beneath the fuselage, then the WGr.21 rockets beneath the wings, AND supplemental 300 liter fuel tanks. All this made it hard for these guys to chase a bomber stream -- and 'meat on the table' for a P-47 or P-51 escort (which was why the ZG units were moved progressively further East).

Some versions of the eduard G-2 include a belly gun of 37mm. These were not particularly successful (the RLM meeting-minutes make - for me - interesting reading, when you see what they were discussing, and what they were worried about - including dealing with B-29s at 30,000' even though it never happened), none of the 'big gun' projects that der Führer favored, whether on the 110G or 410 were.

Bottom line, choose wisely, and in all cases don't forget the air intake (it was COLD in the winter of 1943-1944). Good luck with your build, GRM

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  • 3 months later...

I know this is a late reply, but I wanted to expand upon it. Technically the noses are the same dimensions, it's just an added "bump" to accommodate the Mk108 cannons on the upper surface.

The presence of the 30mm cannons on the nose is very common for models -- it was the "sexy" version with all the firepower. However, the history of the ramping-up of firepower is more varied than that, and the 30mm version only came later, in late 1943 and increasingly into 1944.

The early 110G models had the standard 4x MG17 7mm machine guns with 2x 20mm MG151/20s in the ventral slots. Only the ground attack units really enjoyed (or at least utilized) these as they could put out a lot of bullets into a lot of soft targets. Also good against cars, trucks, people, emplacements, and so forth. For all of the heavy fighter units that were tasked with hunting bombers or patrolling the skies, these were essentially useless weight in 1942 onward. You will find that many night fighter and zerstorer units simply removed the entire battery of 4 MG 17s to save weight, and smoothed over the gun ports. Along this time, they were also refining the design of the belly "gunpod" -- some as large as rowboats at first. So, you can see that they wanted the higher punch of more cannons to down their targets. The intermediate step was more 20mm and less 7mm. Some tried to field-mod the nose to carry 2x 20mm but the guns are very long and stuck out very far. This also had an undesirable side effect of blinding the night fighter pilots and dazzling the day fighter pilots because the big guns would flash as they fired, and they were right in front of your face.

These trials were not picked up for widespread use. Meanwhile, the gunpod (which consisted of wooden ribs and canvas stretched over them) was refined and reduced to present less drag. Night fighters actually preferred this setup because the flash of all 4 cannons were hidden under the fuselage, and the pilot's night vision was left mostly intact when firing his guns. Some installations of day fighters loaded on a BK3,7 instead of 2x 20mm, some tried a Mk103 30mm, though both of these were still in development and finnicky in the air. They weren't as reliable even though they did more damage. Earlier versions of the 110 played around with the Mk103 in the ground attack role, but the ammunition load was very small and usually armor piercing for anti-tank use.

It wasn't until the many teething problems of the Mk108 that the G-4 was redesigned to carry 2 of them in the nose that you see the distinctive "bump" on the upper nose of the 110Gs. There were also supply/demand issues, as the Mk108 had been in demand for most of the Luftwaffe's main airframes for a couple of years. Fw190s, Bf109s, and many other airframes were all in demand of the weapon and the production runs were slow at first.

It became the ultimate hunter version, though it paid for that firepower in additional weight. Lots of weight. The Mk108 with that much ammo wasn't light, but they put two of them into it. Still, with the radar systems and alert networks of the time, these pilots sometimes had hours of warning to climb to altitude, and bombers flew at cruising speeds whilst the zerstorers flew as quickly as allowed. Also, note that once the Mk108s came onto the scene, the use of the under-belly WB151 pods stopped. They were draggy and heavy and really just a necessary evil. Once the Mk108s were in the nose, they made up the firepower of several of those pods, and the pod (with resulting drag) was removed.

It is interesting to note that the 30mm Mk108s in the nose have a staggered placement as compared to the side-by-side of the MG17s. This is because of their breeches and the ammo feed belts. Also because the shape and tapered curve of the nose wasn't changed, the gun placed forward by about 8 inches (or so?) had less physical space to fit in an ammo box and feed tube. One of the guns had about 30+ less rounds in it than the other.

*EDIT: Okay, I mis spoke by saying the MG17s were side by side. They were staggered too, but the space required for their bullets and the depth of their feed belts was much smaller than that of the 30mm Mk108 guns that came later.

Edited by Mark M.
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I believe, from reading years ago that the pig nose came with GM-1 nitrous oxide ...I read that in Squadron's Me-110 in action... Before the Mk 103 cannon. You will see that whichever rustzatze version had the twin MG-151 belly pack and no nose mg or cannon. Keeping up with rustzatze and umrust-bausatze between the different plane types is an entirecarea worthy of study dor tye Luftwaffe inclined.

Best Wishes

Gary

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I believe, from reading years ago that the pig nose came with GM-1 nitrous oxide ...I read that in Squadron's Me-110 in action... Before the Mk 103 cannon. You will see that whichever rustzatze version had the twin MG-151 belly pack and no nose mg or cannon. Keeping up with rustzatze and umrust-bausatze between the different plane types is an entirecarea worthy of study dor tye Luftwaffe inclined.

Best Wishes

Gary

GM-1 was a very heavy and complex system and was never really operational on Bf110s of any variant. I say "never really" just to be safe in case they tested it once or twice, but as far as I can recall it was never used. GM-1 would have predated the "pig nose" -- since the Mk108s were a much much later development.

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