sharkmouth Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Yes but I was just telling that the UB is "screwable". Darn Laurent! You mentioned ART Model and I saw the decal schemes for the MiG-27D and MiG-27K and almost threw my money away! Since I'm not a slave to any scale, are the RV aircraft more accurate in shape? Like Otto mentioned in a previous post, I too prefer accurate outlines over easy fit. Having the sharkmouth schemes already on a usable decal sheet does a lot to sway me to buy. Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Darn Laurent! You mentioned ART Model and I saw the decal schemes for the MiG-27D and MiG-27K and almost threw my money away! Since I'm not a slave to any scale, are the RV aircraft more accurate in shape? Like Otto mentioned in a previous post, I too prefer accurate outlines over easy fit. Having the sharkmouth schemes already on a usable decal sheet does a lot to sway me to buy. AFAIK there's nothing wrong with the ART Model MiG-27s. It's the MiG-23UB that has a problem. When they reverse-engineered the RV MF they didn't notice that the intake splitter base is too wide. RV fixed that in their UB but not ART. Result is that there was no room to put the bottom frame of rear canopy and it made the transparent part of the rear canopy extremely small. Edited September 11, 2015 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foxmulder_ms Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 So right, I literally have close to a thousand modals in my stash. I have plenty to build so I can wait until a good 23BN comes out. Most likely they will come out with a U or UB which will be much harder to screw up. Really?!?!, are there 1000 models that are acceptable with you guys' "high" standards? You guys are just spoiled with new Chinese model makers and their products. I don't hear half the ruckus with Academy offerings which I frankly find worse than Trumpeter offerings when it comes to accuracy. As I stated earlier, I, for one, am grateful for what Trumpeter has been doing for modelling. They come up with so many great subjects otherwise would had snowball chance in hell to be produced by other manufacturers. It is a golden age for us if you can enjoy it!!. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) We are indeed living in the golden age of modeling, the post-Trumpeter age. Model design is often participative for companies that appeared after Trumpyboss (GWH, AMK, KH, Kinetic, FMK and others). Edited September 13, 2015 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) You guys are just spoiled with new Chinese model makers and their products. I don't hear half the ruckus with Academy offerings which I frankly find worse than Trumpeter offerings when it comes to accuracy. Academy (like EVERY manufacturer) has some real dogs in its lineup. But in Academy's case, most of those are very old items in their catalog. Their new stuff is almost universally nice. Not perfect, but they're made by humans, so they're by definition not perfect. As I stated earlier, I, for one, am grateful for what Trumpeter has been doing for modelling. They come up with so many great subjects otherwise would had snowball chance in hell to be produced by other manufacturers. It is a golden age for us if you can enjoy it!!. While it's true that Trumpeter has done stuff nobody else will likely do, that doesn't give them a pass for doing it poorly. Sometimes *EXTREMELY* poorly. Their Su-15 is a prime case in point. There is literally no part of the model that's remotely accurate. Their latest dope slap moment - the MiG-23BN isn't much better from the looks of it. What I don't appreciate is Trumpeter doing stuff, doing it wrong, then poisoning the well for another manufacturer who might very well have done it right. Trumpeter swoops in with a spectacularly mediocre kit and kills any further market for that subject. Kitty Hawk has done the same thing in several cases. And yes, we've become "spoiled" by the overall quality and quantity of new kits. Our expectations have increased, not because our expectations increased on their own, but because many manufacturers have increased them for us. Would you be satisfied with the TV you bought in 1979 today? Would you be happy with your 2004 model cell phone? How about that '74 Dodge Dart? Would you buy a new one like it off the showroom floor as a 2016 model? The fact that our expectations have increased makes it incumbent upon manufacturers to try to meet them (it's their own doing, after all). And when they don't do that, I see **nothing** wrong with pointing it out. Some people take personal umbrage with that, but I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I really couldn't care less what others take umbrage to. We ARE going to discuss it, so if someone doesn't like that discussion, they're invited not to read it. Edited September 13, 2015 by Jennings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 How about that '74 Dodge Dart? Oh would I... especially if it was a Sport 360!!! :) but I do get your point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foxmulder_ms Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 We are indeed living in the golden age of modeling, the post-Trumpeter age. Model design is often participative for companies that appeared after Trumpyboss (GWH, AMK, KH, Kinetic, FMK and others). Academy (like EVERY manufacturer) has some real dogs in its lineup. But in Academy's case, most of those are very old items in their catalog. Their new stuff is almost universally nice. Not perfect, but they're made by humans, so they're by definition not perfect. While it's true that Trumpeter has done stuff nobody else will likely do, that doesn't give them a pass for doing it poorly. Sometimes *EXTREMELY* poorly. Their Su-15 is a prime case in point. There is literally no part of the model that's remotely accurate. Their latest dope slap moment - the MiG-23BN isn't much better from the looks of it. What I don't appreciate is Trumpeter doing stuff, doing it wrong, then poisoning the well for another manufacturer who might very well have done it right. Trumpeter swoops in with a spectacularly mediocre kit and kills any further market for that subject. Kitty Hawk has done the same thing in several cases. And yes, we've become "spoiled" by the overall quality and quantity of new kits. Our expectations have increased, not because our expectations increased on their own, but because many manufacturers have increased them for us. Would you be satisfied with the TV you bought in 1979 today? Would you be happy with your 2004 model cell phone? How about that '74 Dodge Dart? Would you buy a new one like it off the showroom floor as a 2016 model? The fact that our expectations have increased makes it incumbent upon manufacturers to try to meet them (it's their own doing, after all). And when they don't do that, I see **nothing** wrong with pointing it out. Some people take personal umbrage with that, but I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I really couldn't care less what others take umbrage to. We ARE going to discuss it, so if someone doesn't like that discussion, they're invited not to read it. See these posts of yours CLEARLY show you guys have smt against Trumpeter. For example, if 1/48 Academy (or Hasegawa for that matter) F-22 was coming from Trump, it would have been teared down like there is no tomorrow. You guys are not showing same "tolerance" to Trumpeter. While I agree, GWH is better with their models, we all remember the bashing on their F-15! And I definitely disagree that KH or Kinetic any better than Trumpeter (I am yet to see AMK or FMK models in my hands so cannot comment on those). And, AGAIN, my problem is not with pointing out what can be done better for an accurate model to fellow modelers. It is the language. "Trumpeter is ruining modelling by this untouchable model, Trumpeter did again, Terrible terrible" what kind of attitude is this? Seriously, don't you guys have any positive thing to say about Trumpeter? Do you really find this Mig-23 *that* bad?? If you really like Mig-23, you prefer not to build this and have nothing? Really? If so, I am really surprised you guys can find anything to build. GWH Mig-29 should be your first ever model...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
torchf4 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 See these posts of yours CLEARLY show you guys have smt against Trumpeter. For example, if 1/48 Academy (or Hasegawa for that matter) F-22 was coming from Trump, it would have been teared down like there is no tomorrow. You guys are not showing same "tolerance" to Trumpeter. While I agree, GWH is better with their models, we all remember the bashing on their F-15! And I definitely disagree that KH or Kinetic any better than Trumpeter (I am yet to see AMK or FMK models in my hands so cannot comment on those). And, AGAIN, my problem is not with pointing out what can be done better for an accurate model to fellow modelers. It is the language. "Trumpeter is ruining modelling by this untouchable model, Trumpeter did again, Terrible terrible" what kind of attitude is this? Seriously, don't you guys have any positive thing to say about Trumpeter? Do you really find this Mig-23 *that* bad?? If you really like Mig-23, you prefer not to build this and have nothing? Really? If so, I am really surprised you guys can find anything to build. GWH Mig-29 should be your first ever model...... Err really? Remember the Academy 1/48 F-4 thread??? The reason is Trumpyboss has generally screwed the pooch on just about all their releases while charging a premium price, while Academy/ Tamigawa have come out with kits that are accurate in most of the major details. Yes they have come out with kits that are really obscure or on any modeller's wish since BC, that doesn't give them carte blanc to do what they like and treat modellers like how their govt treats their citizens. My benchmark has always been pricing. If you are charging me a much higher price for a 1/48 kit compared to Tamigawa (Academy pricing is below both so no comparison), then you damn well better give me a better kit accuracy and detail-wise, not just a remake of an Esci kit with just more parts and recessed lines. No need to react like Pavlov's dog to every Trumpyboss kit. And the discussion of new kits is good for the hobby, manufacturers get feedback if they are customer oriented, modellers get to know the pros and cons before spending their hard earned money. Good all around. Nobody's stopping anybody from buying any kits from any manufacturers, its a free choice but stop bugging people who want to discuss cos just you think it's a godsend Trumpyboss has release yet another 'kit' on your wishlist. Trust me no companies are going to close down or stop releasing your dream kits just cos ARCers moan about their accuracy. It's just business for the them, get over it! I've dealt with enough Chinese bosses to know. Cheerios, Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 See these posts of yours CLEARLY show you guys have smt against Trumpeter. Not really. Rather I'm supporting the others I've listed. Still I'm going to buy the 1/72 Su-24 and 1/72 MiG-29 9.12 (not available yet) because they are an improvement over the existing kits. I'm just waiting to get them at a price that I find coherent with the kit value. And I definitely disagree that KH or Kinetic any better than Trumpeter (I am yet to see AMK or FMK models in my hands so cannot comment on those). Kinetic and KH have implemented processes to improve their kits while Trumpyboss didn't (in aircraft kits at least, things may be different with armour kits) It is the language. "Trumpeter is ruining modelling by this untouchable model, Trumpeter did again, Terrible terrible" what kind of attitude is this? I'm not using this kind of language. Seriously, don't you guys have any positive thing to say about Trumpeter? Do you really find this Mig-23 *that* bad?? If you really like Mig-23, you prefer not to build this and have nothing? Really? If so, I am really surprised you guys can find anything to build. GWH Mig-29 should be your first ever model...... I have Trumpeter's 1/48 Chengdu J-7G. It comes with Pakistani decals to do a F-7PG.The problem is that the F-7PG has two cannons while the kit doesn't offer the option to have more than one. Is it normal for a kit whos MRSP is 45$ that you need to scratchbuild a cannon or to buy an aftermarket correction set ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dehowie Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) Time and time again the "price" is seen as the thing which people obtain there expectations from. Well that's all good when you have grown up being spoon fed on Monogram kits for $4.95. However all I will say is "Hello America welcome to the world" that everyone else has been dealing with for 50 years. Trumpeter kits are cheap! Go to Hong Kong and compare the prices. The fact Trumpeter is expensive and your expectations for reasons nobody in the rest of the world can fathom are higher is that "YOU" live on the opposite side of the world to the factory. You do realise that shipping is "expensive" don't you. I mean come on you guys seriously expect a kit shipped from the other side of the world to be the same price as one made around the corner? Or would you like us to subsidise your cheap kits out of our pockets? Then because "you" live about as far from the factory as humanely possible and this pushes up the price you have a higher expectation on the kit because it's more expensive. Don't mean to sound condescending but you have to be kidding don't you? With the Trump A team pumping out cracker armor models left right and Center plus some superb ships I think they have cut there losses on aircraft. As irrespective of how God or bad it is the aircraft community just whine endlessly about everything. Edited September 14, 2015 by dehowie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Time and time again the "price" is seen as the thing which people obtain there expectations from. Well that's all good when you have grown up being spoon fed on Monogram kits for $4.95. However all I will say is "Hello America welcome to the world" that everyone else has been dealing with for 50 years. Trumpeter kits are cheap! Go to Hong Kong and compare the prices. The fact Trumpeter is expensive and your expectations for reasons nobody in the rest of the world can fathom are higher is that "YOU" live on the opposite side of the world to the factory. You do realise that shipping is "expensive" don't you. I mean come on you guys seriously expect a kit shipped from the other side of the world to be the same price as one made around the corner? Or would you like us to subsidise your cheap kits out of our pockets? Then because "you" live about as far from the factory as humanely possible and this pushes up the price you have a higher expectation on the kit because it's more expensive. Don't mean to sound condescending but you have to be kidding don't you? With the Trump A team pumping out cracker armor models left right and Center plus some superb ships I think they have cut there losses on aircraft. As irrespective of how God or bad it is the aircraft community just whine endlessly about everything. Hobby Boss 1/72 Jaguar A sells at 30USD at LM which is based in HK. IMHO price should have been around 20USD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
erik_g Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I am wondering if it is not perhaps a "feature" of the Trumpeter kits to have some sort of visible shape issue. Maybe to protect themselves from lawsuits and such from manufacturers of real aircraft and real tanks. I mean, some of these shape errors are clearly visible if you compare to photos or see the real thing up close, others are a bit more cleverly disguised. The Stridsvagn 103 aka S-tank was one of their first good kits, but it was about 10mm too short, scaled uniformly all over, so it is not clearly visible. Their new SAAB J 32 Lansen will probably be more detailed and have better fit than the Tarangus while being 10-20 Euros cheaper, but the fairing behind the canopy has the wrong shape. This canÂŽt be something that is hard to get right, or hard to see on reference photos. Most likely the designer never checked reference photos or intentionally got it wrong. vs That said, it might turn out that they have changed the cad before the molds are made, but I am not holding my hopes up. Trumpeter are not the only ones doing this either. The Tarangus Viggen is a good example, where the CAD designer clearly disregarded the looks of the real aircraft in a few spots (angle of canard flap hinges, MLG wheel thickness and so on). However, the errors are not too hard to fix since the basic shapes look pretty right. As a consumer/builder I think it is nice to know of any shortfalls before I buy a kit. If the fit is poor or details are missing, I can judge myself if I am ready to commit my self to the amount of work that is required. If the shape is off, I want to be able to see if it can be fixed, if it has to be fixed or if I can live with it or if it a deal breaker for me. So as long as the criticism against a kit is justified I think it is useful. That said, I have several kits that have received harsh criticism from me and others, among them three Tarangus Viggens and a few Kinetic Vipers.. The Viggens will be worked on and corrected, the Vipers.. well, I will have to live with that nose, I donÂŽt care enough about them. "Looks good enough". But I did make an informed decision when buying them, and for that I thank my fellow model builders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I am wondering if it is not perhaps a "feature" of the Trumpeter kits to have some sort of visible shape issue. Maybe to protect themselves from lawsuits and such from manufacturers of real aircraft and real tanks. I mean, some of these shape errors are clearly visible if you compare to photos or see the real thing up close, others are a bit more cleverly disguised. IMHO Trumpyboss is like a runaway train. Their goal is to fill up the cardboard boxes shipped to the distributors. I believe that they don't think it's interesting to validate reference material and CAD design before tooling, for the aircrafts at least. Things are or became different for a number of companies who appeared after them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
punder Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 After many frustrations with my Su-15 CAD model, I can tell you that any kit designer working from drawings, photos, and hand measurements is going to get it wrong, somehow. The only true solution to this problem is 3D scanning. Everything else is analogous to "hearsay" in a law court. As far as I know, the only company to wholeheartedly adopt this technology is Tanmodel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I am wondering if it is not perhaps a "feature" of the Trumpeter kits to have some sort of visible shape issue. Maybe to protect themselves from lawsuits and such from manufacturers of real aircraft and real tanks. I can pretty much guarantee you the *very* last thing anyone in China is worried about is Saab or MiG suing them. First of all, making the kind of bone-headed mistakes they're making would in *NO* way protect them against any kind of intellectual property suit, should such a thing happen. Just because it's a bad representation doesn't make it any less of a rip off of the intellectual property of the owner of the real thing. Trumpet Boss does lousy stuff because they have people working for them who don't know what they're doing. They're great CAD draftsmen, but they know NOTHING about airplanes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 As far as I know, the only company to wholeheartedly adopt this technology is Tanmodel. Revell scanned a real C-54 for their new kit. And they're not the first to do so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
torchf4 Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) I can pretty much guarantee you the *very* last thing anyone in China is worried about is Saab or MiG suing them. First of all, making the kind of bone-headed mistakes they're making would in *NO* way protect them against any kind of intellectual property suit, should such a thing happen. Just because it's a bad representation doesn't make it any less of a rip off of the intellectual property of the owner of the real thing. Trumpet Boss does lousy stuff because they have people working for them who don't know what they're doing. They're great CAD draftsmen, but they know NOTHING about airplanes. Yep pretty much what Jennings said. Unless you are a multi-national or extremely famous or on the govt's shitlist. Most companies are pretty much insulated over there for many reasons, having the local honcho in your pocket being one, in fact you can't open a good size company over there without some grease, even if just to clear the red tape. And if you want business longevity then long term 'cultivation' is a must! 'Guangxi' is still alive and well over there, hence many western companies fail to break in cos they do things the normal way as in the west. Even if they do get shoot on over copyrights or any other issues, then they just shut down over night and open a new shop the next street over with a new company name and owners, easy peasy. Hence many businesses do have shadow owners or front men for this very reason. Do Trumpt really need so many sub units when they are all doing the same products or genres? Think about it! Edited September 16, 2015 by torchf4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) The only true solution to this problem is 3D scanning. Everything else is analogous to "hearsay" in a law court. I'm not a draughtsman by trade but I believe that 3D scanning doesn't solve everything. AFAIK what is needed to tool a plastic kit is a parametric model which can be based on a scan but that has to be built from scratch netherless. Scans have artefacts (look at the windscreen here) that need to be fixed so human error can be introduced during design of the parametric model. I'm not after 100% accurate models. I just think that the design process should involve people who know the shape differences between MiG-23 versions when the designer himself doesn't. Trumpyboss doesn't seem to use such process when designing aircraft kits. Edited September 16, 2015 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
erik_g Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I can pretty much guarantee you the *very* last thing anyone in China is worried about is Saab or MiG suing them. First of all, making the kind of bone-headed mistakes they're making would in *NO* way protect them against any kind of intellectual property suit, should such a thing happen. Just because it's a bad representation doesn't make it any less of a rip off of the intellectual property of the owner of the real thing. Trumpet Boss does lousy stuff because they have people working for them who don't know what they're doing. They're great CAD draftsmen, but they know NOTHING about airplanes. I donÂŽt think they are worried about lawsuits either, more like not being able to export to the US or EU. But yes, I really believe it is due, not as much incompetence, but simply lack of care. They care about keeping deadlines and get the product out, because that is what the bosses care about and that is that. But still.. every effing model.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) As to the Trumpeter's MiG-23 family, somebody must have told them to use the drawings from the MiG-23 (fighter variants) booklet from the Czech 4+ publication series. Accordingly, they carried over the glitches from the drawings right away into the kit's development in a 1:1 ratio. And in case your kit's R&D is solely based on scale drawings, it's, admittedly, a hard job to sort the chaff from the wheat without any external expertise. Which drawings are available? Are they reasonably accurate as to the overall dimensions, shape and proportions? Do they feature enough cross sections? Etc. However, another feature I've been able to witness first hand while tackling Trumpeter kits for years, is their "policy" to sacrifice a subversion's characteristics for the sake of tool/part commonality. E.g. the quarterscale MiG-19PM features fuselage halves which are identical to those found in any other Trumpeter MiG-19 boxing. Anyway, the actual radar-nosed PM is quite a different beast. Simply glueing another nose to the fuselage will not necessarily result in an "authentic" looking model. A reasonably authentic rendition of an actual P/PM would have required a set of completely re-tooled fuselage halves. Or, in case you don't mind to spend some extra money, go and get the SBS correction set. Pretty much the same for the MiG-23 family. The M/MF versions aren't indeed *that* bad. But when it comes to the ML/MLD, you're in trouble... And if your Mk.I eyeball happens to be quite familiar with the duckbill MiG-23/27, it will tell you immediately that it doesn't look right - like a girl with a nice body but with a deformed face, requiring a more or less extensive "nose job". And while taking another look at the F-100, A-7, RA-5C, MiG-19PM, MiG-23, etc., sorta family tradition... Edited September 17, 2015 by Airfixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 As far as I know, the only company to wholeheartedly adopt this technology is Tanmodel. New Airfix is also pretty heavily into LIDAR these days. Cheers, Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
punder Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Great news that other companies are using lidar too. No, lidar does not solve everything, but it can go a long way, especially with idiotic basic shape mistakes. Laurent, I can't open your link from work, but I know that glass and other reflective surfaces can cause problems. Here is an excellent interview with the Tanmodel owner: http://doogsmodels.com/ Edited September 17, 2015 by punder Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Otto Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Well guys, $71 retail here in the US. That is double of their previous kits. They can take this model and shove it as far as I am concerned. I WILL NOT buy one. I just got the E-flyer from Squadron this morning and they are showing some new Trumpeter kits and the prices are out of this world. I know that Stevens Intl is the importer for Trumpeter and he is really blowing the prices out the park on his exclusive imports. From what I understand, it is about 5x his cost. This givs you guys an idea of the real price. Edited October 24, 2015 by Otto Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Got the kit... may post sprue photos if there is interest. Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ijozic Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Got the kit... may post sprue photos if there is interest. Please do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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