Banana11000 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 What do you use? I know this sounds stupid but... Water? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 90% isopropyl alcohol. Most drug stores carry it, though you may have to ask for it. Tamiya acrylics can be cleaned with water and a detergent, but aren't really compatible with it. For airbrushing, I also add a very small amount of retarder, available in most craft or artist's supply stores. I do not recommend using Windex or windshield washer solvent, though both are good for cleaning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChippyWho Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 We are talking acrylics here, right?! :blink: I wouldn't let water near them; Tam's X-20A thinner is the way to go and gives really good results from around 50/50. I make it a policy to use only the manufacturer's recommended thinner with any brand, but having said that, water (ideally quite hot) thins Xtracrylics nicely so if anyone has tried it with Tamiya paint I'm sure they'll put us straight! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jinmmydel Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Lacquer thinner. I use Mr. Color leveling thinner. As good as the paint works with X-20A it's that many times better with lacquer thinner. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Banana11000 Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 Thanks guys! I think a trip to my local hobby store is in order! Cheers, Colin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AnthonyWan Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I use Vallejo Airbrush Thinner... the stuff they recommend for Model Air. About 50/50 mix @ 18-20 PSI. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dmanton300 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Mr Color levelling thinner all the way Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nerdling Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 90% isopropyl alcohol. Most drug stores carry it, though you may have to ask for it. Tamiya acrylics can be cleaned with water and a detergent, but aren't really compatible with it. For airbrushing, I also add a very small amount of retarder, available in most craft or artist's supply stores. I do not recommend using Windex or windshield washer solvent, though both are good for cleaning. I've always used alcohol as well for my Tamiya paint. It seems to work great for me. Also way cheaper than using Tamiya's own thinner. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thommo Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I use Tam's X-20A thinner too, but when I can find some, I'll give the laquer thinner a go - probably the Tamiya stuff with the yellow cap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisRRR Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 In case of emergency it is also possible to "thin" the paint with future. I did that once with Tamiya smoke because I wanted to lower the opacity for better coverage control while I was out of X-20. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
airea Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Pure IPA has a very fast drying time. Instead of pure IPA, make your own tamiya acrylic thinner (ie X20A): mix 40 ml of water with 20 ml of IPA, 1 ml of retarder and 1 ml of flow improver. Shake it and voila, you have a great, cheap thinner for tamiya and gunze acrylic paints... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Tamiya Acrylics aren't true acrylics, they're actually lacquer based, hence, the flammable warning on every single label. True acrylics have no such warning. With that being said, Tamiya paints are what I use for all painting except for metallics which is Alcad 11 or Metalizers. I thin Tamiya Acrylics with their yellow cap Lacquer Thinner, which is a very mild formulation, and really works better then X20-A for breaking down the paint pigments. My basic thinning ratio is 2:3 paint to thinner. Shot at a flow rate of 16 psi, the finish is silky smooth. Joel Edited August 18, 2015 by Joel_W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Tamiya Acrylics aren't true acrylics, they're actually lacquer based, hence, the flammable warning on every single label. True acrylics have no such warning. Joel An all too common misconception, usually the result of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." By the above definition, enamels are lacquers, because they are flammable—obviously not true. Tamiya acrylic paints are, indeed, made with an acrylic polymer. Unlike lacquers, they cure, rather than merely drying as is true of lacquers. Many acrylics use water as their primary solvent, often with small amounts of various alcohols as cosolvents. The mere fact of an alcohol or other flammable substance as a primary solvent does not make a coating a lacquer, or make it not an acrylic. Before acrylic polymers were developed and used in coatings, things were simple: lacquers used alcohols as solvents, enamels didn't. This was a simple way to tell the two apart. Unfortunately, that distinction has persisted, while technology has changed quite a bit. Tamiya and Gunze acrylics do not use water. They use alcohols as their primary solvent. Acrylics encountered in scale modeling broadly fall into two categories: water soluble and alcohol soluble. The confusion is made worse by the fact that solvents sold as "lacquer thinners," especially those marketed to the hobby, are a blend of solvents, some fairly exotic, and will dissolve a wide range of coatings. The key word here is "marketed." Most people know that a can of "lacquer thinner" from the hardware store will dissolve nearly anything. So the ad wonks market a solvent blend that is compatible with multiple coatings as "lacquer thinner." This causes people to assume that if, for example, Gunze markets it's proprietary thinner as "lacquer thinner," then the paint must really be a lacquer. Paint dries, then cures. Lacquers only dry. It's a matter of thermodynamics. I'm not going to try to explain that—some reading this got lost after the bakery … :blink:/> Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris L Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Back to the original question . I have tried most of these items and I can say the Mr Color leveling thinner give me the best finish with Tamiya or the Gunze aqueous paints. Cheers, Christian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thommo Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 How would this stuff go with Tamiya acrylics? - http://www.bunnings.com.au/diggers-1l-general-purpose-lacquer-thinner_p1560465 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 How would this stuff go with Tamiya acrylics? - http://www.bunnings....hinner_p1560465 It might work fine, HOWEVER: (and it's a big "however) without knowing what's in it, it's an open question. Most general purpose "lacquer thinners" are a blend of solvents, including but not limited to: acetone, alcohols (various), xylene, toluene, mineral spirits, napthas, methyl ethyl ketone—pick a solvent, and someone probably puts it in a "lacquer thinner." The reason is, as partially discussed above, that these products are meant to be universal solvents. There are now synthetic lacquers that are soluble only in one or two specific solvents, so those solvents have to go into any blend calling itself lacquer thinner. The problem is, while such a solvent blend may look like it is thinning the paint just fine, it may also be playing havoc with the binder, altering it's properties and causing it to behave very differently than a truly compatible solvent. For example: most acrylic coatings I've used in the hobby are soluble in acetone in their liquid state. However, acetone does nasty things to the polymer, and if you try to spray it, the stuff will either 1. never cure; 2. cure before it gets to the surface—and in the airbrush; 3. turn suddenly to goo in the airbrush; 4. any combination of the above. Unless you know the chemistry, there is no way to tell. When in doubt, use a manufacturer's proprietary thinner, or what they tell you on the bottle. The amount of thinner used in thinning is tiny. For cleaning, you have much more latitude. I'm a rarity, here. I was a materials scientist. I worked in the coatings industry, and with coatings professionals for many years. You can generally trust my advice, as long as you take the caveats I include. Coatings are strange beasties, and they are constantly evolving—"Here be dragons." Unless you speak dragon, don't go there. This hobby is supposed to be fun, not frustrating. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jinmmydel Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 An all too common misconception, usually the result of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." By the above definition, enamels are lacquers, because they are flammable—obviously not true. Tamiya acrylic paints are, indeed, made with an acrylic polymer. Unlike lacquers, they cure, rather than merely drying as is true of lacquers. Many acrylics use water as their primary solvent, often with small amounts of various alcohols as cosolvents. The mere fact of an alcohol or other flammable substance as a primary solvent does not make a coating a lacquer, or make it not an acrylic. Before acrylic polymers were developed and used in coatings, things were simple: lacquers used alcohols as solvents, enamels didn't. This was a simple way to tell the two apart. Unfortunately, that distinction has persisted, while technology has changed quite a bit. Tamiya and Gunze acrylics do not use water. They use alcohols as their primary solvent. Acrylics encountered in scale modeling broadly fall into two categories: water soluble and alcohol soluble. The confusion is made worse by the fact that solvents sold as "lacquer thinners," especially those marketed to the hobby, are a blend of solvents, some fairly exotic, and will dissolve a wide range of coatings. The key word here is "marketed." Most people know that a can of "lacquer thinner" from the hardware store will dissolve nearly anything. So the ad wonks market a solvent blend that is compatible with multiple coatings as "lacquer thinner." This causes people to assume that if, for example, Gunze markets it's proprietary thinner as "lacquer thinner," then the paint must really be a lacquer. Paint dries, then cures. Lacquers only dry. It's a matter of thermodynamics. I'm not going to try to explain that—some reading this got lost after the bakery … :blink:/>/> This. I've been fighting this "Tamiya is not a true acrylic" battle for a long time. But usually my academic knowledge of chemistry just gets dismissed as "opinion," so I just ignore it now and let people think what they want. But well explained. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris L Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Not sure of that particular brand bu I find that hardware store brand lacquer thinners are hotter than hobby brands . It could melt the plastic . The only answer is try it . I prefer to work with things that someone else has tried first > Not all plastic kits are the same , but it's your plastic. Cheers, Christian Edited August 19, 2015 by Chris L Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thommo Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Not sure of that particular brand bu I find that hardware store brand lacquer thinners are hotter than hobby brands . It could melt the plastic . The only answer is try it . I prefer to work with things that someone else has tried first > Not all plastic kits are the same , but it's your plastic. Cheers, Christian You go first, I'm building revered a Matchbox Kit atm :lol: However, acetone does nasty things to the polymer, and if you try to spray it, the stuff will either 1. never cure; 2. cure before it gets to the surface—and in the airbrush; 3. turn suddenly to goo in the airbrush; 4. any combination of the above. Unless you know the chemistry, there is no way to tell. I've been known to shoot straight acetone thru my Aztek, and dunk the AB and nozzles in it to clean...maybe not the best idea :o Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Triarius, Thank you for your most detailed explanation of Tamiya acrylic paints. My intention really just to point out that they're not a true Acrylic paint. Not sure where or why I got the impression that they were a lacquer base, other then the fact that Tamiya's best thinner is their Yellow cap lacquer Thinner, so I just assumed. About the only thing I use store Lacquer Thinner for these days is to soak my AB cones and clean the needles, as it removes all types of paint. I'm thinking of even moving that job to Denatured Alcohol as it eats right through all the types of paint I Air Brush with: Acrylics, Tamiya Acrylics, and Enamels. I no longer use any lacquers. Joel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
balls47 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Triarius, This is for you. A few days ago, helping a friend took me to a local body shop. While there, "the paint guy" stopped in. To make a long story short, I called the man at their place of business about purchasing some white paint. He said that lacquer was very expensive, but he had an enamel product. I told him I was concerned with yellowing because of the oils in enamel paint. He told me that was not an issue because his enamel was "acrylic enamel." I am sure that you have heard of this product. If so, could you please explain "acrylic enamel" to me and it's characteristics. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Triarius, <snip>Not sure where or why I got the impression that they were a lacquer base, other then the fact that Tamiya's best thinner is their Yellow cap lacquer Thinner, so I just assumed. <snip> Joel Like I said, it is a common—and on the surface, perfectly reasonable—assumption, often for the reason you cited. Another is that lacquer thinners generally contain a fair amount of alcohol. The reason is that old technology (from 100 CE, at least) lacquers were naturally occurring resins dissolved in alcohol. These materials are still in widespread use. Tamiya and others have not helped the situation, either, by calling a proprietary solvent "lacquer thinner." Historically, any solvent with an appreciable alcohol content can, and is, called by that term. The situation is also made much worse by advertising. In the case of coatings, there is often only the most distant and tenuous connection between the product name and its actual composition. See my post further down in response to balls47's question.:soapbox:/> :rolleyes:/> Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Triarius, This is for you. A few days ago, helping a friend took me to a local body shop. While there, "the paint guy" stopped in. To make a long story short, I called the man at their place of business about purchasing some white paint. He said that lacquer was very expensive, but he had an enamel product. I told him I was concerned with yellowing because of the oils in enamel paint. He told me that was not an issue because his enamel was "acrylic enamel." I am sure that you have heard of this product. If so, could you please explain "acrylic enamel" to me and it's characteristics. Thanks in advance. :explode:/>!!%#$@*&! Ad wonks! :explode:/> "Acrylic enamel" is an acrylic paint no different from any other acrylic paint of recent manufacture. This is advertising, pure and simple. So why are they calling it "acrylic enamel"? you ask. This is because the term "enamel" is actually a misnomer that has come into common use as a term for a coating made with a traditional hydrocarbon polymer binder, and soluble in relatively high molecular weight hydrocarbons like toluene, xylene, and mineral spirits, to name a few. When such paints first became available, they produced durable, glossy coatings similar to real enamelware: a glass fused at high temperature to a metal substrate. So these paints were advertised as "enamel" paints. Almost all of us are probably familiar with the shortcomings of the early acrylic paints. While they were easy to use and clean up, the resulting coating was not as durable and had poorer adhesion than traditional enamel paints. Now, the technology of acrylic paints has advanced to the point that they are generally as durable and have as good, or nearly as good, adhesion as the old "enamels." So now they are advertised as "acrylic enamel." As far as the consumer is concerned, there is no difference in composition, they are just improved acrylic paints. Coatings technology is constantly evolving and changing. For example, a few years ago, it was impossible to make a canned aerosol acrylic paint. Now they are common, and improving steadily. That is why it is best to use a recommended or proprietary thinner for spraying acrylic paints. Would you rather spend the time it takes to test a paint for compatibility with a solvent, or spend the time building? Would you take a chance on ruining a kit or an airbrush? When I got back into scale modeling, someone told me that Tamiya and Gunze could be thinned with 90% isopropyl alcohol. I didn't take their word for it—I used my knowledge of paint technology to test it, and several other solvents. I was modeling on a shoestring. Time was available, money was scarce, and I was going to use a lot of paint and solvent learning to use an airbrush. Today, I wouldn't spend the time, I'd spend the money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Triarius, Thanks for sharing your vast knowledge on this somewhat confusing topic of model paints. It seems to me that the manufactures or companies that sell paints under their own name, in reality are just playing with words to get us modelers to use their next great product whether or not it is in fact any better or newer then what else is currently out there. Joel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Joel, My sentiments, exactly. In that regard, things have changed little since a very wise ancient Roman said, "Caveat emptor." "New! Improved!" translates as "lower quality, higher price." I should also say that I hardly consider my knowledge of coatings "vast." I know people whose knowledge dwarfs mine. "Real experts are relatively easy to identify. They are always acutely aware the the vastness of their own ignorance." Edited August 19, 2015 by Triarius Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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