johnbuck Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Hi Crackerjazz. Knew it would be good to catch up on your posts and to see how things were going with you....fantastic work as always....just love the docking window...all your scratch-building skills coming to the fore... The rivets and panel stress line are working out really well and give the paneling a super authentic appearance. Do you think you will fit out your 1/10 build ? Twould be an interesting pic to have the two scale models together..... eh. I think some newer members ( newer to the hobby that is ) might be a little surprised at the difference in comparative volumes...it still surprises me. Pop in a 1/48 and 1/72 if you have them.... Cheers JohnB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 Hi John, here's a picture of a 1/48 next to the 1/32. Unfortunately, I don't have a 1/72. I think I'm enjoying the smaller builds, right now, though, and they're way easier to take photos of. Gotta get myself a set of the New Ware details/correction parts -- that Monogram 1/48's still a classic isn't it. There's something about it that I really like compared to a Dragon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnbuck Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Hi Crackerjazz, goodness me...excellent.....there you go.... It still makes me do a double take with such pics even after all these years of scale comparisons, it must be the volumetric differences rather than the overall dimensions per se I think. The ol' Monogram LM certainly is a classic. Probable still the best out there. Still have a couple in my stash inspired by Pete's wonderful cutaway which just shows what can be done at 1/48. Still have a fondness for 1/32 (3/8") though. Cheers johnB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Practicing descent stage sheathing on the 1/48....I'll try spraying on some clear orange afterwards to see if that will help make it look like kapton. Now I know how hard it is to do the descent stage. I can imagine the clear orange paint pooling up in the crevices - I hope not. (Edit: wanted to delete these shots because I've since modified the foiling. On second thought I'll keep them anyway to document the build.) Edited November 8, 2015 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) Tore off the initial foiling and tried again because it looked too much like what it was -- crinkled foil -- and the creases didn't look too realistic. I think my tests today look better. The patterns seem closer to the reference photos now. And it depicts the looseness of the kapton covering better now somehow. I used some shots of the LM-2 at the Smithsonian for reference as well because I think Paul Fjeld's team tried their best to replicate the LM-5 sheathing as best they could. I still used narrow strips of double-sided tape just along the edges, not attaching the whole length of the tape strip at once but kind of sticking it on a few mm at a time and crinkling the edge in between to show the taping imperfections along the edges better just like on the real thing. What do you think, guys? The ascent stage seems happy enough he wants to hop on.... (edit: I was so inspired by Pete's LM, that I finally gave in and ordered the 1/48 New Ware details and decal set from Culttvman - hope it gets here soon! Edited November 8, 2015 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 What do you think, guys? The ascent stage seems happy enough he wants to hop on.... (edit: I was so inspired by Pete's LM, that I finally gave in and ordered the 1/48 New Ware details and decal set from Culttvman - hope it gets here soon! I hesitate to critique your work crackerjazz cuz it's just outstanding ... but ... the foil, in that scale is too billow-y. Maybe it's the stiffness of the material, or where you're attaching it, but the wrinkles are out of scale, in my most humble opinion. Bearing in mind the lovely, subtle wrinkles you've got in the 1/32 Ascent stage, the Descent stage results don't match the scale effect. If, and/or when, I get back to my 1/48 Apollo Lunar Spacecraft stack and its LM, I wanna use 3 or 4 or 5 layers of Aluminum foil and then cover that with the gold 'mylar'. ( In my case, Chocolate bar wrappers ) Hoping the added layers will give the pillowed effect ... I'll hafta give 'er a try. And seeing as you're getting the New Ware set, are you gonna build up a 1/48 in addition to all these others? You're doing a terrific job on these models CJ ... keep doing what cher doin'! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 I was kinda expecting that, Pete, heheh. I was hoping I could get away with it. I actually couldn't make good wrinkles on the tissue foil -- they just wanted to straighten out (the opposite of kitchen foil) and you have to force them to appear by crumpling the sides. Even then, the wrinkles the tissue foil creates is almost fabric-like in appearance and it's difficult to make those pyramid-like wrinkle patterns. I did try to stick on little pieces of paper underneath but that wasn't going too well either. Paul Fjeld's team did an awesome job on the LM-2 didn't they: I've asked Vincent for some advice as well as to where he got the 2 colors of survival blankets - maybe they will work. In the meantime -- gotta know what candy you got (I feel like a kid on Halloween night again). I wish I had someone else working along with me on another 1/48 so we could kinda push each other along -- was hoping you'd get back to your build soon. I love that LM-- you sculpted the aft section sheathing didn't you? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnbuck Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Hi Crackerjazz, this is all really coming along a treat as we all expect with your work. Am following your trials with great interest and am sure you can get it to work to your satisfaction. Could the problem be, in part, that the blankets, being on a scaffold, held off by stantions will go 'in' behind the plane of the model as it were as well as forward ? Some time ago I reduced a 1/48 Monogram descent stage to just such a frame with the idea of investigating the problem further and coming up with a satisfactory solution but then other things got in the way. Following on from this and just as a thought re the panel stress lines : the panels, being no more than 26gauge (Ithink) or thereabouts, will buckle naturally when mechanically fastened to the frames. Perhaps as the craft moves in different directions the frames 'settle' and the panels 'keep going' in the vacuum causing the buckle lines to vary. On this basis the effect would be even more pronounced on the blankets.....just a thought. It really is most useful and interesting you sharing your trials in this way and appreciated by all of us I am sure. Cheers johnB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 14, 2015 Author Share Posted November 14, 2015 Hi John, I'd love to see that frame! Yes, it's kind of difficult to replicate the exact way the real deal looks. This is the best I could come up with for now. Someday when shrinking ray technology makes its advent and I get ahold of it I'll make my way into the Smithsonian and zap the LM-2. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 15, 2015 Author Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Not quite, right? I'm want to get away from the wrinkled-paper look. The wrinkles on the mylar (it's mylar isn't it -- and not kapton as I initially mentioned?) in the reference shots just don't look the same as the wrinkles you get from crumpling/balling up foil. You can't control on the size and shape of the wrinkles when doing it this way. So right now I'm trying to test if a sculpted-on backing will help control the shape -- and especially the scale -- of the wrinkles. What do you think about doing it this way? Do you think it looks any better than the wrinkled foil? Edited November 15, 2015 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Hi Joseph, yep, this is a clever approach to the fissured surface structure, which is very close to the reference shots, both from the size and the shape of the wrinkles, because their depth is greater. I think that this effect looks more realistic than the simply wrinkled foil and is well worth the effort. Edited November 15, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnbuck Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Hi Crackerjazz Good idea. Definitely has possibilities. It certainly is a problem and worth solving methinks. Here is the frame idea you asked to see which I did the beginning of last year I think : as it was/is just experimental & exploring a possible method the work is somewhat crude but you get the idea Apols for the last pic being out of focus - it was a question of now what does this look like...will it work.......mmm...possibly... will have another go with the foil. The foil is just held on with blue-tac. With more care & manipulation.... what do you think ? Then flood the back with 2:1 PVA to fix it ?? Should get back to it and I haven't yet ....typical ! Cheers johnB Edited November 15, 2015 by johnbuck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) Thanks, Manfred! Hi John, Thanks for the construction shots! The foiling does look pretty good! Got a question. I'm kind of confused about the descent stage being hollow -- by "hollow" do you mean just those panels in-between the outriggers? Because the outrigger panels look pretty solid to me -- I can see stringers and I suppose the blankets are riveted onto those? Edited November 16, 2015 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnbuck Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) Hi Crackerjazz, should have included this pic ....I cut random 'holes' in the end closures of the cruciform and differing levels of the card 'inner' to accommodate the 'in & out'. Still needs work though to get it right if poss'. The idea was a sort of 'filled in' representation of my lunar module airframe. This is probably the way I would go If I decide to represent part of the scaffold to illustrate how the panels and blankets were attached....would be interesting.... Also check this link out ( which I think you already have ) which shows how extensive to 'scaffold' is : essentially and virtually the entire craft ( with real measurements too). A quite superb resource. http://heroicrelics.org/info/lm/lm-structural.html Hope this helps. Cheers johnB Edited November 16, 2015 by johnbuck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnlove_mk_II Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Two very interesting solutions ... I'm certain this is why my blankets never looked "right". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the link, JohnB! And that's a fantastic-looking descent stage. You have to finish it! :)/> Hi, John -- yeah, it's so hard to nail down. Stick the foil onto something flat or sculpted and it loses is billowy-ness. Go hollow and scale wrinkles might be a challenge. JohnB's looks pretty good, though, so it might be the way to go - although if I decide to go that route I have to remember not the handle the model too roughly. On another note, I got my New Ware resin parts as well as the Ultimate 1/48 decal set today! Amazing stuff! The bells have rings! Edited November 17, 2015 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) The set has ready-made windows. The targeting grids aren't decals and are very detailed. But if you lose the acetate there are LPD and docking reticle decals as backup. I wish there were something similar for 1/32. Wanted to show Merzo's CSM-LM stack he made over at Papermodelers a long time ago. It's in 1/48 but looks huge. You can see what a 1/48 can turn into - very, very inspiring! Mind you, it's made of paper and doesn't have all the extra resin superdetailing but because the stack has so much going about it visually it's just so striking to look at: Edited November 17, 2015 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 More work on the 1/48. I found the vents a bit tricky to cut off from the trees. I lost 6 of 'em to the carpet monster (still boggles my mind how they just disappear into the ether. I was rather cool this time, though, knowing there are extra parts in the set(or are there? -- have to count how many there are on the LM) and surprisingly I didn't go through my 5 minutes of depression after losing parts. I also mangled a lot of the vents before settling on a technique that worked for me. I found it helped to slide the blade in first on one side of the vent just halfway through then doing the same on the opposite side. The helium tank cover put up a really good fight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnbuck Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) Thanks Crackerjazz, That's a great detail set from New-Ware ain't it. Wonderful quality. Their MESA too is quite superb.......and Rick's Ultimate decals too. You must have tried an old white bedsheet spread under/around the bench....mind you it is amazing how far some of these parts can 'flick'.....going through the dust bag of the vacuum is an occupational hazard of our hobby methinks. Re Merso's gorgeous paper stack : what a cracking job. If your tempted with paper at some time don't forget uhu02' amazing LM. Must get back to that too.... http://uhu02.way-nifty.com/die_eule_der_minerva/041.html Herewith the cabin thus far with a bit more relief added...... printed at 1/32 of course Cheers. johnB Edited November 19, 2015 by johnbuck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 Thanks, John! That cabin's shaping up nicely! Worked a bit on the windows of the 1/48. I didn't really plan on accurizing this too much. My original plan was to actually grab that pre-built Dragon 1/48 that's been sitting on the shelf of my LHS for years so that I can dock it with my Dragon pre-built CSM. I wasn't sure when I'd get to finish the 1/32 so I wanted some instant gratification. I stepped into the store with a big smile on my face that quickly faded away when I saw the shelf devoid of any LM. I was told I was a day too late! This Revell/Monogram LM's a classic, though, so I'm not really devastated -- but just what were the odds! I wanted to dip the windows in Future but was worried what the effect might be on the silkscreened markings so I decided not to. Painted the frame white. The unpainted edges will all be hidden when the frame is glued on from inside the cockpit. The face just isn't complete without the tracking light "nose" :) I've sanded it down for the PE part. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 -- was hoping you'd get back to your build soon. I love that LM-- you sculpted the aft section sheathing didn't you? I just re-read your thread and didn't realize you had asked me a question about my LM ... the crinkles on the equipment section are just wide strips of .005" or .010" styrene bent in a variety of directions. Now ... onto this series. You realize you're just confusing us old fogeys by working on a 1/48 LM with the thread title of a 1/32 LM ... dontcha? Geez, but your early detailing of the window is already great! And I had Futured my screen printed windows with no problem arising at all.( Tomas' update kit is really lovely! And Rick's decals are the best out there! ) Did you install 2 layers of window, to make the reticle that much more accurate? ... you're an amazing modeller CJ!! And the red around the 'glass' ... is that just paint? Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Oh, heheh, sorry for the confusing thread. I had no intention of building a 1/48 -- I wanted a pre-built one (a Dragon, despite the reviews) at first to quickly stand a CSM-LM stack on my desk. Decided to build my Revell/Monogram instead, but, again, just for a quick build. I also needed something to practice foiling on, anyway. Then I got to re-reading your 1/48 build and all the resin upgrades in your build shots. Then google turned up Rick's decals and Tomasz' feedback about the Dragon compared to the Monogram, and it all happened so fast -- I quickly found myself inside the vortex of a fulltime 1/48 Monogram build. I still don't intend to detail it completely like I intend to with the 1/32 but I might throw in some details here and there that come from the upgrade sets. You are right, though, it throws the reader off -- maybe I should start a new thread. But let me label the pics for now. Yeah, I did the double-pane bit for accuracy. Looks really good especially with those silkscreen LPDs with super-fine hairline grids. The red around the glass such as in this photo (I forget which LM this was) -- I tried to simulate using 0.4mm styrene sheet. At first I wanted to make one from a 0.5 square rod but since the width didn't matter as the only the very edge is visible, using sheet styrene was actually possible. Worked on the other window (which didn't have the LPD): Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Red part sandwiched. Ready for test fitting. The PE area around the white frame will be hidden from view. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnbuck Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Hi Crackerjazz, Beautiful work as always. I'm with Pete...... think of us 'seniors' ......start a 1/48 build thread and end this confusion....it will only take you minute ! Then we will have the benefit of watching three superb LM builds. ( and we sure have not forgotten you amazing LLRV ) Get on with it man........ Brilliant stuff JohnB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Youngtiger1 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Totally cool work on the windows. Since you didn't use future on your windows them what glue are you using to sandwich the three parts together? TIA. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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