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11bee

VW getting dirty

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Poor Volkswagen, looks like they could get hit with one of the largest fines in US history for deliberately tampering with the emissions controls on their diesel powered vehicles sold in the US (and now it appears, also in Europe). Cute trick, the motor can tell when it's hooked up to emissions testing equipment and changes its settings to maximize test results (at the expense of reduced fuel economy and accelerated engine wear). Once the test is over, it reverts to its normal mode, which results in its exhaust emissions being 40 times higher than USEPA standards.

US Justice Dept has now begun a criminal investigation, since by all accounts, this was a deliberate scheme to evade US environmental regs and has resulted in serious pollution issues (not to mention potential health issues). EPA has the right to fine VW up to $37,000 per vehicle, which rolls out to over $18 billion in potential penalties. Coupled with an anticipated slew of personal fraud, injury and consumer rights lawsuits, this could send VW into bankruptcy.

If it turns out that they also sold these cars on the European market, it could get much worse. Will be interesting to see how the EU regulators come down on a major domestic producer like VW. Now VW has to figure out how to correct this issue on all these cars. They can probably reprogram the cars to go into test mode permanently but try telling the half a million owners that their new cars are going to take a serious hit in mileage and the motors / emissions control system may wear out prematurely. Result - more lawsuits.

Normally, I'd feel bad for VW, I've always liked their cars but since this appears to be an intentional scheme, I wouldn't shed a tear if it takes the entire company down. Glad to see their stock lose close to 30% of it's value

Goodbye farfagnugen.

PS - just read another article that indicates up to 11 million VW cars may be involved....

Edited by 11bee

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Whilst I agree that heads should roll and most likely go to prison as a result of this, taking delight in the mass unemployment that would result if the company (and its supply chain) goes to the wall is, dare I say it, a wee bit cruel.

Even rejoicing in their share price falling may be self-defeating if your pension scheme has invested in VW and/or its supply chain.

I wonder if VW is the only car company that has been doing this...

Darius

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Doesn't VW own Audi and Porsche as well? I wonder if this affects them too.

Edit: Read the article, then remembered it said diesel only. So Audi yes, Porsche no. At least not directly.

Edited by 2qwik4u

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Whilst I agree that heads should roll and most likely go to prison as a result of this, taking delight in the mass unemployment that would result if the company (and its supply chain) goes to the wall is, dare I say it, a wee bit cruel.

Even rejoicing in their share price falling may be self-defeating if your pension scheme has invested in VW and/or its supply chain.

I wonder if VW is the only car company that has been doing this...

Darius

Normally I'd agree but IMO, this is corporate greed at it's worst. Maybe a lesson like this will changes things in the future (although I doubt it).

I too have to wonder if this type of scheme is limited just to VW. I have a feeling that regulators on both sides of the Atlantic are looking at other manufacturers vehicles right now.

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Whilst I agree that heads should roll and most likely go to prison as a result of this, taking delight in the mass unemployment that would result if the company (and its supply chain) goes to the wall is, dare I say it, a wee bit cruel.

Darius

Ha, don't hold your breath. I would be shocked in anyone goes to jail. (see HSBC, Goldman Sack, Swiss Banks etc) Big fine, probably, but even then, it amounts to like 1 or 2 quarter's worth of profit. Problem is no one is personally responsible, the company will agree to a large fine, probably won't have to admit guilt and move on. Market forces actually encourage cheating because profits made outstrip the fines paid. The fines are simply an added cost of business for most of these companies. This will be a bump in the road for VW and they will be back in a year or so. (Hye, If the company can survive the legacy of being founded by Hitler's cronies, I think this will be okay too)

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Ha, don't hold your breath. I would be shocked in anyone goes to jail. (see HSBC, Goldman Sack, Swiss Banks etc) Big fine, probably, but even then, it amounts to like 1 or 2 quarter's worth of profit. Problem is no one is personally responsible, the company will agree to a large fine, probably won't have to admit guilt and move on. Market forces actually encourage cheating because profits made outstrip the fines paid. The fines are simply an added cost of business for most of these companies. This will be a bump in the road for VW and they will be back in a year or so. (Hye, If the company can survive the legacy of being founded by Hitler's cronies, I think this will be okay too)

Agree to a point but this isn't just about skimming some money through bogus accounting tricks, it's potentially about impacting the health of US (and now EU) citizens as well as consumer fraud on a huge scale (if the reports that up to 11 million vehicles are involved turn out to be correct).

We'll see how it all plays out, maybe you're are right.

With regard to personal culpability, there had to be a good number of people involved in the engineering and implementation of this "enhancement". My guess is that the lower-level engineers will have no problem pointing out who in management instructed them to do this. Sounds like the CEO is done but that's only a start.

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Agree to a point but this isn't just about skimming some money through bogus accounting tricks, it's potentially about impacting the health of US (and now EU) citizens as well as consumer fraud on a huge scale (if the reports that up to 11 million vehicles are involved turn out to be correct).

We'll see how it all plays out, maybe you're are right.

With regard to personal culpability, there had to be a good number of people involved in the engineering and implementation of this "enhancement". My guess is that the lower-level engineers will have no problem pointing out who in management instructed them to do this. Sounds like the CEO is done but that's only a start.

Right but the bank scandals cost people billions of retirement savings, the HSBC was deliberately ignoring drug traffickers and terrorist money laundering. In any other universe that's a jail able offense.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the CEO all the way down to the engineers the programed it to be hauled off in cuffs, but the best we can hope for is a few middle management fall guys and a big corporate fine.

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If VW has been caught with gerry rigging OBD2 computers to give false readings in test mode, I wonder what if any other car makers have done and may be doing the same? I mean bean counters and engineers are likely not only being unethical at VW. Just food for thought

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Just like the stories of hacking into motor vehicle's infotainment computers. FCA and the Grand Cherokee story for one of having such done and driver thus losing control of the vehicle was B.S. The only thing a person may be able do if they can hack into an infotainment system (not as easy as the MSM spin it BTW) is mess with radio controls, HVAC, maybe the Nav maps and at worse said by those who are more honest experts maybe have the vehicle turn off. BTW even if the vehicle turned off, all one has to do is slow to a stop and pull safely off the road. There is no way a hacker can get control of the steering, throttle or brakes. None of these are controlled, directly by computer software, especially the infotainment centre. All are still physically controlled by the driver only.

Electric power steering is not drive by wire. It is merely a small electric motor on the steering rack that boosts driver's inputs as the driver is still directly controlling the steering rack. Just like hydraulic power steering does but instead of an accessory belt operating the booster a low powered electric motor is. There is no connection to it and the infotainment computer and even if there was, the driver is still physically connected to the steering via the steering wheel and trust me he/she will know and feel if some outside force is trying to steer the car and as such they could then hold on and pull over. But again this hijacking is not possible in modern vehicles. Even if you look at the park assist in many cars, the computer that does that is not a part of the infotainment system and is not connected to any wifi/3G source to be remotely hijacked. BTW if you were to fight the automatic steering the computer will sense the load you are applying and then stop trying to park your car. This is why you are to keep your hands off the wheel. And to verify my point even with that system YOU STILL MUST OPERATE THE BRAKES! What does that tell you about having a computer and a hacked one get control of your car including the brakes? It tells us that it's not possible. BUT! BUT! BUT! why are the manufacturers talking about this? Well folks it's about revising patent laws. If the auto makers in this case here can get governments on board about fears of such hacking, then patent laws can likely be rewritten to basically allow them to have full authority over what and how you service or in future how you alter your vehicles. You will not be able to do most anything, service or altering with your bought and paid for vehicle as the vehicle will be fully covered by these then new patent laws and will be under the control of the various auto makers. This will force you to only bring your vehicles to the factory's dealer networks. And trust me create enough fears about hijacked cars will have the majority of the driving public fall into line and accept this then new reality. Nefarious? YEP! Global corps really have no soul.

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Watching this story unfold has been almost surreal; all I find myself thinking is "...but it was so stupid...stupid...STUPID!" Did the authors of this idiotic deception really believe it wouldn't get the top blown off sooner rather than later? Did they think the relevant agencies in the US -in freakin' CALIFORNIA- wouldn't catch on? Russian Roulette with a full chamber has better odds. :bandhead2:

A couple of years ago, a UK TV documentary about the celebrated wirtschaftswunder informed us that the 'most aspired to' auto brand in the WORLD was VW -not Mercedes, BMW, or any of the big-ticket prestige badges. Also, it was amply demonstrated that the company was a model of integrity in commerce, investments, labour relations, you name it -happy smiles all round. And they can shoot themselves in the butt like this!

At the very least, the CEO should take The Walk for this happening on his watch.

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(if the reports that up to 11 million vehicles are involved turn out to be correct).

It is official information;

Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide.

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/09/Volkswagen_AG_has_issued_the_following_information.html

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Wow, I'm surprised there haven't been millions of deaths so far because of the rampant pollution being put out by these steel beasts... :rolleyes:

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Wow, I'm surprised there haven't been millions of deaths so far because of the rampant pollution being put out by these steel beasts... :rolleyes:/>

+1

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Wow, I'm surprised there haven't been millions of deaths so far because of the rampant pollution being put out by these steel beasts... :rolleyes:/>/>/>/>/>/>/>

Good point, we all know that pollution is another myth. Breathing in gases and particles from car exhausts will do you no harm. Better to let big corporations decide what is healthy and what is not, correct? Certainly don't want them bound by silly regulations that impact their profits.

Here is a country that does things right. They aren't afraid of the "rampant pollution coming out of those steel beasts".

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8p5ztgFWfhIAaPEunIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIyYXF0NjZvBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANhY2E4ODdlNzBjMTJjZmRkMzljNzI2OGI5OTdkNmMzMQRncG9zAzYEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dchinese%2Bair%2Bpollution%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-001%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D6&w=620&h=387&imgurl=i.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F02709%2Fharbin2_2709592b.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworldnews%2Fasia%2Fchina%2F10396198%2FChinese-city-of-Harbin-shrouded-in-smog-as-air-pollution-soars.html&size=32.0KB&name=%3Cb%3EChinese%3C%2Fb%3E+city+of+Harbin+shrouded+in+smog+as+%3Cb%3Eair%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Epollution%3C%2Fb%3E+soars&p=chinese+air+pollution&oid=aca887e70c12cfdd39c7268b997d6c31&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&tt=%3Cb%3EChinese%3C%2Fb%3E+city+of+Harbin+shrouded+in+smog+as+%3Cb%3Eair%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Epollution%3C%2Fb%3E+soars&b=0∋=21&no=6&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=14177rmjk&sigb=14fhan3o7&sigi=11v50elqr&sigt=12jcjk2r1&sign=12jcjk2r1&.crumb=dJK836mh.eH&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&fr2=piv-web&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla

I so love this website...

:rolleyes:/>/>

Edited by 11bee

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Normally, I'd feel bad for VW, I've always liked their cars but since this appears to be an intentional scheme, I wouldn't shed a tear if it takes the entire company down. Glad to see their stock lose close to 30% of it's value

Goodbye farfagnugen.

Really?! Realizing that we are all getting our information on this scandal 3rd and 4th hand right now through the media (who are never wrong of course), don't you think that would be a bit harsh? Hundreds of thousands of people would lose their jobs, car dealerships would go bankrupt and millions of people would not be able to buy parts for their cars. And that's just the Volkswagen brand. Volkswagen also owns Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, and overseas-brands SEAT and Skoda, so the fallout of Volkswagen going belly up is staggering.

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Wow, I'm surprised there haven't been millions of deaths so far because of the rampant pollution being put out by these steel beasts... :rolleyes:/>

Alright, do an experiment for us and then report back;

Connect a pipe from exhaust and lead it to inside of the car. Close all the doors and windows, turn on the engine.

Awaiting your report. No doubt it will be scientific and based in factual evidence.

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Really?! Realizing that we are all getting our information on this scandal 3rd and 4th hand right now through the media (who are never wrong of course)

Another good point. VW officially announced they are setting aside 7 billion and stated that additional money may be required but they did that based on 3rd and 4th hand info that was overblown by the media.

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Another good point. VW officially announced they are setting aside 7 billion and stated that additional money may be required but they did that based on 3rd and 4th hand info that was overblown by the media.

What does that have to do with hoping the whole company goes belly up?

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If the company does go down, hope there are plenty of spares still available, cos I just bought the Mrs a 2006 Jetta (petrol) to run between her 3 jobs in!

Swore I'd only ever buy Toyota's, but then this came up, bargained the seller down a lot (which turned out to be lucky cos it is getting a new timing belt tomorrow), and the Mrs loves it (happy wife, happy life and all that ;) ).

Not surprised the engine can detect testing gear and change. Even the old 2006 model has more fancy stuff than I've ever seen, the Mrs is still reading the manual to work half of it out (and yes Mr mechanic, the reason the intermittent wipers were not working is because they are rain-sensing - they do not need a new relay :rolleyes: - figured that out myself from Dr Google).

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Good point, we all know that pollution is another myth. Breathing in gases and particles from car exhausts will do you no harm. Better to let big corporations decide what is healthy and what is not, correct? Certainly don't want them bound by silly regulations that impact their profits.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8p5ztgFWfhIAaPEunIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIyYXF0NjZvBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANhY2E4ODdlNzBjMTJjZmRkMzljNzI2OGI5OTdkNmMzMQRncG9zAzYEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dchinese%2Bair%2Bpollution%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-001%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D6&w=620&h=387&imgurl=i.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F02709%2Fharbin2_2709592b.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworldnews%2Fasia%2Fchina%2F10396198%2FChinese-city-of-Harbin-shrouded-in-smog-as-air-pollution-soars.html&size=32.0KB&name=%3Cb%3EChinese%3C%2Fb%3E+city+of+Harbin+shrouded+in+smog+as+%3Cb%3Eair%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Epollution%3C%2Fb%3E+soars&p=chinese+air+pollution&oid=aca887e70c12cfdd39c7268b997d6c31&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&tt=%3Cb%3EChinese%3C%2Fb%3E+city+of+Harbin+shrouded+in+smog+as+%3Cb%3Eair%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Epollution%3C%2Fb%3E+soars&b=0∋=21&no=6&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=14177rmjk&sigb=14fhan3o7&sigi=11v50elqr&sigt=12jcjk2r1&sign=12jcjk2r1&.crumb=dJK836mh.eH&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&fr2=piv-web&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla

I so love this website...

:rolleyes:/>

Myth? Maybe... Maybe not. Who knows. Why is one level of exhaust "good" while and arbitrarily higher amount "bad"? Don't forget that arbitrarily determined pollution limits are an added cost to the consumer. As would be any "fine" paid by a corporation. All passed down.

Don't forget that any fine would also simply go to general revenues and not to any measurable ecological good.

I am all for consumer protection against fraud but I don't see the "damage" otherwise.

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Myth? Maybe... Maybe not. Who knows. Why is one level of exhaust "good" while and arbitrarily higher amount "bad"? Don't forget that arbitrarily determined pollution limits are an added cost to the consumer. As would be any "fine" paid by a corporation. All passed down.

Don't forget that any fine would also simply go to general revenues and not to any measurable ecological good.

I am all for consumer protection against fraud but I don't see the "damage" otherwise.

Indeed, why have any standards and pollution limits at all? I say bring back leaded fuel. I mean, i can't *see* the damage it is doing to anyone, so surely it can't be real if i dont see it? I have heard gases are just a myth invented by liberals anyway.

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Myth? Maybe... Maybe not. Who knows. Why is one level of exhaust "good" while and arbitrarily higher amount "bad"? Don't forget that arbitrarily determined pollution limits are an added cost to the consumer. As would be any "fine" paid by a corporation. All passed down.

Don't forget that any fine would also simply go to general revenues and not to any measurable ecological good.

I am all for consumer protection against fraud but I don't see the "damage" otherwise.

So one can ignore any particular environmental reg because there is no tangible "damage"? All those air and drinking water contaminant limits are just "arbitrarily determined"? Have you ever heard of something call "science"? They use this science thing to determine all those pesky pollution limits because somewhere along the way, they also used science to figure out that pollution is bad for human health. I know, I know, pretty crazy isn't it?

Again, please try Berkuts' suggestion above. Report back. Or just add a dab or two of pesticide into your drinking water cooler (just a little bit of course, don't want to ruin the taste) and let us know after a year of drinking that stuff what your thoughts are on the subject of anti-pollution regs.

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Whats going to happen here is we are going to demonize VW rather than look at what at emissions checks are.

Rather than equip cops with actual measurement devices to check emissions on the vehicles in daily operations (think radar guns) and ticket them. we have EVERYONE pile into emissions checks where stuff like this happens along with the people who know their cars won't pass gaming the system.

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As a Veedub owner and enthusiast, I cant say this news changes my view.

I did find it amusing that they plain out apologized and basically said "oops you cough us"

heck they even lied to me! my 2015 GTI is supposed to have 200 HP of the dealer floor.

It actually topped out at 230HP grrrr =)

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Alright, do an experiment for us and then report back;

Connect a pipe from exhaust and lead it to inside of the car. Close all the doors and windows, turn on the engine.

Awaiting your report. No doubt it will be scientific and based in factual evidence.

LOL, funny. I appreciate the sentiment. BTW, what's the name of your horse? Or is it a bicycle? Nooo. I know, walking.

Bill

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