Brian J Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) Before I begin painting the Hasegawa A-4C (kit PT22) I would like to share a finding and pose several questions. Photos found on the A-4 Skyhawk Association web site were very helpful in clarifying several points but raised several questions. In comparing the markings from the Eagle Strike A-4 sheet (48032), the CAM sheet (48-040A) as well as the kit decal sheet I found that the unit emblem, a griffin, varies with each sheet. The Hasegawa interpretation appears accurate but the wings should be painted blue, not black. The shade of blue is different on all three decal sheets and also seems to vary in the colour photos. I plan on painting the blue and white markings on the tail and wing tanks. Is anyone aware of the FS number that represents this shade of blue? Photos indicate that some unit aircraft had corroguard leading edges on the wings and tail surfaces. It is difficult to tell if this applies to NL 302 BuNu.147825. The kit instructions and decals indicate a different colour on the vertical tail leading edges but is not indicated in writing. Any opinions on this? Edited October 15, 2015 by Brian J. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) I've not seen all those decal sheets, but from the few photos I've seen of the real thing that has the griffin the body and wings appear to me to be black (or vary dark blue) with a white head? The griffin on fuselage for 153 appears to have disappeared around 1964. I'm not sure what period all those decals represent, maybe the griffin underwent some color change in the few years it was with 153 in the very early 60s? Dave Roof I believe suggested MM Russian Topside Blue for the blue. I think there was a thread on that somewhere, either here, LSP, or Z5. Edited October 15, 2015 by Steve Belanger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
f4h1phantom Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I have this picture which I downloaded from the net. Maybe it's useful if you haven't seen it. I would too like to know about a good match for the blue. Best regards, Jorge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian J Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) Thank you gentlemen for your response. The image provided by Jorge is the only one I am aware that shows BuNu147825 in these markings and appears to be the reference used in producing the various decals. It seems to be more realistic and sharper in tonal quality as the image on the A-4 Skyhawk site is a bit darker and a different shade. The decals provided by CAM (48-040A) seem closest to the blue in the above photo. It also appears that the corroguard leading edges are visible in this photo and a slight shading on blue on the wings of the griffin. This is the best image I have seen to date of this aircraft. Any other opinions? I just noticed that the Gull Grey of the aircraft and the concrete has a purplish tone to it, something I have noticed on many slides that I took over 50 years ago. Edited October 15, 2015 by Brian J. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 There is at least one other published photo of specifically of 147825 that must’ve been taken at the same time by same person (the T-28s in the background are the same). That other is taken more from a front left quarter view. Unfortunately I don’t remember what book it was from, and the photo credit is to “the author” so that doesn’t help me ID it. I’m still not convinced there is blue shading on the griffin wings? What I think it looks like in that photo is the sunlight reflection affecting the color (looks similar to the 7 and 8 in the BuNo that is whitewashed from the sunlight) Also looks like pilot and/or p/c names by the cockpit below the black shield. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian J Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 Thanks for your input, Steve. I 'saved' the image provided by Jorge and was able to enlarge it. Of the three decal sheets I have been referring to the Hasegawa version appears to be the most accurate, except for the shade of blue. I seldom use kit decals, but over the years have compared Hasegawa kit decals when they are of the same subject as after market companies. I hold Hasegawa decals in high regard, except for their 'white.' In this case, the kit markings are the correct size and font when compared to the above mentioned photo. The griffin also appears the most accurate. I could be wrong (just ask my wife) but I'll have to chew on the idea that parts of the griffin have blue in them. Sure hope that other photo you referred you turns up. Thanks again! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superheat Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Hi Brian, I do not think there is any Corrogard on the leading edges in Jorge's photo. Corrogard was basically an aluminum paint and contrasted sharply with the Gull Gray and white when present. Here are are a couple photos to demonstrate the point, both VA-163 aircraft: This second one, though black and white, demonstrates it even better, since Corrogard is present on the wing leading edge but not on the slat: I don't remember there being Corrogard on the A-4's of the 4 squadrons I cruised with (VA-112 - 1969, VA-12, VA-152 and VA-172 - 1970), and going through a lot of A-4 photos seems to back that up. On most aircraft their is no evidence of Corrogard, but on some, the light gull gray wraps around to the underside of the leading edge of both wings and horizontal stabs to where Corrogard would usually be, and that appears to be the case on 147825. On the Griffon, it is hard to say based on that photo. but it is rendered in black with a white head and white detail on the wings and body and a yellow beak. I see no reason why it would be otherwise on the aircraft. That photo is the only one I have with the griffon on the fuselage. You might consider consider contacting Stan Thompson, the Association SDO for VA-153 and see what he has to say about the griffon. You can find his email on the Association Contact List page. I might add that it is interesting to note that the area under the slat is light gull gray, not red. That is true of all the B and C 153 aircraft I have photos of. Cheers, Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian J Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Well...I did ask for opinions. I'm beginning to feel like Charlie Brown when he observed that he was absolutely, positively convinced that he had the right answer. Except that he wasn't quite sure. Thanks Tom for your comments as your photos seem to verify that the corroguard finish is quite noticeable in colour photos. They made me take a second look at that original colour photo posted by Jorge and it seems to me (mind you I may change my mind by tomorrow) that the leading edge of the vertical tail may in fact be Light Gull Grey like the rest of the aircraft and not corroguard as I suggested in an earlier post. Dare I ask for more opinions? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) [A couple of pics here: http://www.seaforces.org/usnair/VA/Attack-Squadron-153.htm edit: another pic but b&w and the caption says 1963: Jari Edited October 16, 2015 by Finn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian J Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) For those who may be interested and in response to an earlier post by Steve Belanger I believe I found that photo of NL302 that he indicated was available but that he was unable to locate. Few modelers spend (waste) more time thumbing through their references then me and this morning while looking through an old Profile Publications issue, Number 102, on page 8 I found that photo of NL302 that Steve mentioned. My lack of computer skills prevent me from sharing this photo. If anyone else has access to this Profile it may be worth sharing for those who are interested. I want to thank those members who took the time to help with my questions as I feel confident in proceeding with my build-up. Brian, let it go...let it go... Just gotta add one more observation! It looks like the tip of the wing tank is Dark Dull Grey, not that shade of blue as on the tail. I swear I'm done! Edited October 17, 2015 by Brian J. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superheat Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Brian, let it go...let it go... Just gotta add one more observation! It looks like the tip of the wing tank is Dark Dull Grey, not that shade of blue as on the tail. I swear I'm done! Possible, I suppose, but much more likely to be some shade of blue. Drop tanks, as well as MERs, TERs, LAUs, etc., often had their tips painted in their squadron trim color to identify ownership aboard ship. If the photo were in color and showed it in gray, that would be definitive, but it is in black and white, so open to interpretation, and mine, based on 8 years in Naval Aviation, is that it is most likely blue. I would also add that there was no set, prescribed (ie FS #) for the squadron trim color. Only the basic color was designated in the regs and anything that fit that basic description was OK. With VA-153, note that on the A-4 the blue is very light, while on the A-7 it is much darker. So it is possible that there are different blues on the tail and tip tank, but I also doubt that. The front of the tank is in direct sunlight, except for the bottom. The tail, though, is in shadow, so it appears darker in the photo than the top of the tank, but about the same as the bottom and, therefore, I think it is the same shade of blue as the tail. But, of course, it is your model and your decision. Cheers, Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian J Posted October 18, 2015 Author Share Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) Okay, I lied. I feel obliged to comment on the last comment made by Tom. I think he is referring to the last b&w photo posted by Jari of NL303 (7844). My comment about the Dark Dull Grey nose of the wing tank referred to the colour photo posted by Jorge of NL302 7825. It sure looks like a dark grey to me, but then I seem to have been wrong on several other occasions! Edited October 18, 2015 by Brian J. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Not hard to tell there is corrogard on the tail of this one: https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/38049473@N00/334388631/in/gallery-72157623802049159/ As for the tanks, some tanks had the grey, perhaps corrogard to protect the nose?: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4034/4353417568_226b9a8fe1.jpg http://www.seaforces.org/usnair/VA/Attack-Squadron-22-Dateien/image153.jpg http://www.vvmf.org/userfiles/remembrances/rem_uploads/Oubound%20Hop%20VMA%20211%20Chu%20Lai%201970.jpg http://nam.wz.cz/images/a-4e_chulai.jpg https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7032/6442122627_8b5c43ffac_b.jpg Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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