Jennings Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Would you expect an aftermarket canopy (presumably corrected) that would require major, and very precise surgery to the horribly inaccurate kit parts to make it fit (if that's even possible)? I wouldn't. It would be financial suicide for any aftermarket manufacturer. Sadly, the kit needs at the very least an entirely new front end of the fuselage from the intakes forward. But as I said, given how monumentally poor that part of the kit is, the rest of it is highly suspect in my book as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Would you expect an aftermarket canopy (presumably corrected) that would require major, and very precise surgery to the horribly inaccurate kit parts to make it fit (if that's even possible)? I wouldn't. It would be financial suicide for any aftermarket manufacturer. You lost me. I was referring to the Ciro Models' air brake correction set which requires cutting off the fuselage rear on the kit to replace it with a resin item which itself needs filling of some pin holes, has a slight warp, and a tiny amount of shrinkage. Cutting the fuselage resulted in a tiny step due to the shrinkage. Correcting the air brake outlines wasn't as difficult as some made it seem when pointed out as a problem. I won't be buying more Ciro Models' rear fuselage correction set because it is easy enough for me to do. An aftermarket canopy would be vacuum-formed. If I see that the windscreen sill needs modification to fit an accurate (or close) windscreen, then I understand the need of a front fuselage. The sill and armor aren't hard to fix. Some may not have the skill needed (but someone who followed the IPMS Journal's article on correcting Hasegawa's Flogger (like I did with an Academy clone) shouldn't have a problem). Then we have those that can make the correction but won't because of time constraints or the principle of paying such a price for a kit they need to work at. Anyway, back to the kit and see if I can figure out if the windscreen needs major or minor modifications. Regards, Edited November 17, 2015 by sharkmouth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mingwin Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 i really hope that Komplekt-zip could bring something similar as what they bring for the Su-24. because i fear that the same issues will prevail on their upcoming MiG-27's too Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) [...] Anyway, back to the kit and see if I can figure out if the windscreen needs major or minor modifications. [...] Sure it does... The overall geometry is slightly off, it is too short (the same for any other Trumpeter MiG-23 windscreen) and it lacks the distictive downward inclination. As is: Cockpit sill too steeply inclined, windscreen too short, lacking the distinctive downward inclination = entire area right front of the windscreen ist too voluminous. However, in case you're willing to invest a decent amount of albow-grease, it's doable. In principle... Restoring shapes and proportions: Step 1 Establishing proper cockpit sill inclination -> filling and sanding required. (Personally, I'd use Evergreen strip styrene and Magic Sculp.) Step 2 Establishing proper downward windscreen inclination -> sanding in order to create an oblique windscreen support bearing. Subtly sanding down the windscreen base is purely optional. Problems/Challenges: Simply sanding down the fuselage's windscreen support will result in the windscreen support area being too wide. Filling and sanding mandatory. Also, by canting the windscreen further downward, the rear windscreen frame will be tilted further forward, of course. Accordingly, I'd suggest to display the duckbill with open canopy, the windscreen's too heavily pronounded rear frame inclination will become less noticeable. However, the windscreen will remain too short... Step 3 The actual nose job. Extensive cutting/sanding required in order to replicate more authentic shapes and proportions. Extensive cutting, sanding and rescribing (according to personal taste). Problems/Challenges: Restoring (evenly) the curvature between the "nose bridge" and the forward fuselage flanks (vertically) over the entire length of the forward fuselage. Extensive rescribing quite inevitable. "Postoperative" (courtesy of Photoshop): Roughly... Or "close enough"... Why not? Far from being perfect. But I daresay the result may bear a much closer resemblance to an actual BN than before... Sorta optical correction, if you will. And it's a quite a job to accomplish... And as far as I'm concerned, and based on my personal Trumpeter track record, I'm no longer willing to go to such such lengths... I'm in no way lacking the skills; let's just call it sheer frustration... Cheers Erik Edited November 17, 2015 by Airfixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Erik, excellent use of the photograph! Which plan did you use for the overlay? Thanks for showing that it is tedious but not impossible. I did state that "we have those that can make the correction but won't because of time constraints or the principle of paying such a price for a kit they need to work at." Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrea Bolla Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 From the drawings used for your overlay it seems also that the nose gear door is too short... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) The drawing was taken from an issue of the Russian Aviatsiya I Kosmonavtika magazine. IIRC, the drawings were penned by Igor Milyachenko. From the drawings used for your overlay it seems also that the nose gear door is too short... I'm afraid the dashed green line denoting the wheel bay recess is slightly off. The nose gear door's leading edge should be virtually in line with the rear end of the SPS-141 ECM fairing. The kit parts seem to have rendered this feature quite correctly. Corrected version: I can see it coming...most likely I will end up taking measurements from a BN on Saturday. Edited November 17, 2015 by Airfixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Too bad I can't see the posted images while at work! Thank you for the lead, I believe I have that issue in my library. I must have lost my photocopy of the plan as I only found the starboard side. Airfixer, may I have your permission to use the modified photo on another site (where I usually post my builds). Of course, I will give credit to you for the overlay as it is a bit better than I could do! Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Feel free to help yourself, Saul. Another slightly refurbished overlay (1024p) can be found here: http://i102.photobuc...zpsop2mnxe9.jpg Just in case you may need some scans of MiG-23/MiG-27 drawings, including some vectorised versions, just drop me a PM. Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Thank you Erik, I may take you up on the offer if I don't find the magazine in my library. Since that view matched the photocopy I had perfectly, I am pretty sure I have the magazine. If not, you'll hear from me. Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Problems/Challenges: Restoring (evenly) the curvature between the "nose bridge" and the forward fuselage flanks (vertically) over the entire length of the forward fuselage. Extensive rescribing quite inevitable. You're glossing over a *lot* of work there, though. It's akin to saying "fix the clear parts then just sculpt a new nose"; yes, that is literally what is required, but it's the execution that's the problem. And (as you're aware), once you move from 2D profiles to 3D curves, things get a lot more complicated. It's not just a simple matter of cutting the nose at an angle and re-positioning the windscreen, since that then flows through the contours of the entire nose area. I suspect the actual cutting line would have to be several mm lower than you're marking. Additionally, is the nose even acceptable in plan view? Given how far off the profile is, I don't think we can assume the plan view is correct; in which case, you'd have to re-shape the sides *and* top. As for the canopy... I've got to think that if someone has enough skills to sculpt an accurate forward fuselage out of the kit parts, vac forming a replacement wouldn't much of a stretch. You'll probably need a new windscreen too, as the kit part looks pinched to my eye. It's certainly doable, and I'm sure someone will. Much like the Su-24 fixes, or DMold's various corrections. But it's not going to be a simple cut-here-sand-there job; it'll require heavy, heavy plastic surgery. Few modellers will have the skill or patience to do it, and the most realistic solution for most will be to wait until the aftermarket releases a replacement forward fuselage. Edited November 17, 2015 by MoFo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Cockpit sill too steeply inclined, windscreen too short, lacking the distinctive downward inclination = entire area right front of the windscreen ist too voluminous. However, in case you're willing to invest a decent amount of albow-grease, it's doable. In principle... [...] And it's a quite a job to accomplish... "Decent amount of elbow-grease/In principle/quite a job to accomplish." Sheer understatement. I simply wanted to provide a deliberately basic/minimalistic description of what has to be accomplished in order to achieve a more authentic representation of a MiG-23BN. And despite being basic or minimalistic,my assumption is that the vast majority of fellow ARC modellers will be well aware that such a correction is by no means a walk in the park nor piece of cake. Besides, what's the overlay's caption? "Roughly... Or "close enough"..." Edited November 18, 2015 by Airfixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) I can see it coming...most likely I will end up taking measurements from a BN on Saturday. Erik, only if you do visit the aircraft, would you verify the flat spot of the nose in front of the windscreen edge? I noted, from my photos, a slight flat spot when viewed from the side which is not shown in any of the scale plans. The photo below is not mine but from a site which covers the history of the aircraft I wish to portray; Czech Air Force MiG-23BN 9863. This flat spot occurs in the skin directly in front of the windscreen where it transitions from the flat edge of the windscreen to the rounded shape of the nose (on the next panel with the oval shaped access panels). Other photos which don't really confirm or deny my suspicion. They are from the MiG-23BN walk around photo set on B-Domke.de: Regards, Edited November 20, 2015 by sharkmouth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I don’t know if this is of any help to those building this kit. Had a look today in my collection and took this photos for you. It is the original front wheel mud guard in 1 to 1 scale. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 I don't know if this is of any help to those building this kit. Had a look today in my collection and took this photos for you. It is the original front wheel mud guard in 1 to 1 scale. While I can't see the photographs (blocked at work) I am certain they will help! I considered using lead foil from a wine bottle (a little surprise for the wife) to create it. The nose wheels would help form the shape along with a thin strip to create the flat indentation. I read about (again, without seeing photos) you using decals for rivets on the R-33 missiles. I plan to use Archer Fine Transfer rivets as they are printed resin and raised, is this what you used? Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Hi Saúl, No. What I was using is a simple decal made for a completely different purpose. It had a row of black rivets of about the right size and distance from each other. This is the only place I used a decal to reproduce a rivet line. The after end of the missile body had this row of rivets, this is the only place where it was used. The rest of the missile was painted, including the rivets. Yes, those resin rivets are good but for a completely different purpose. They are excellent when making master. To use them on the MiG-23BN mudguard is a possibility. Have to say that those rivets on the mudguard are really big and not to nice n real life! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 Yes, those resin rivets are good but for a completely different purpose. They are excellent when making master. To use them on the MiG-23BN mudguard is a possibility. Have to say that those rivets on the mudguard are really big and not to nice n real life! That, I easily remember! Thanks for the information. I am sure I'll enjoy the photos of your work when I get home. Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Re: the flat spot. The front edge of the windscreen is flat, and straight. By necessity that means the fuselage is flat and straight where the two meet. If the nose were curved, then the front of the windscreen would have a ) shape, much like the Tornado: http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/5/0/0542053.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Erik, only if you do visit the aircraft, would you verify the flat spot of the nose in front of the windscreen edge? I noted, from my photos, a slight flat spot when viewed from the side which is not shown in any of the scale plans. The photo below is not mine but from a site which covers the history of the aircraft I wish to portray; Czech Air Force MiG-23BN 9863. This flat spot occurs in the skin directly in front of the windscreen where it transitions from the flat edge of the windscreen to the rounded shape of the nose (on the next panel with the oval shaped access panels). [...] The camber right in front of the windscreen runs indeed rather flat. However, it's by no means dead flat. The lighting conditions (reflections) seem to overemphasise the decribed "flattish" appearance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) Re: the flat spot. The front edge of the windscreen is flat, and straight. By necessity that means the fuselage is flat and straight where the two meet. Of this, I am aware. It is from the side view which interests me as even the best scale plans seem to show a straight line from the windscreen's front edge down to the tip. The camber right in front of the windscreen runs indeed rather flat. However, it's by no means dead flat. The lighting conditions (reflections) seem to overemphasise the decribed "flattish" appearance. This is what I am referring to and wondering how to best replicate it. Regards, Edited November 20, 2015 by sharkmouth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted June 7, 2016 Author Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) I just got Trumpeter's MiG-27 in and it has a new nose sprue. No idea if it is correct as I haven't had time to check. [Edit - I checked and there have been no corrections to the outline of the nose, canopy sills, canopies, or cockpit armor.] Regards, Edited June 8, 2016 by sharkmouth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer 30 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) I just got Trumpeter's MiG-27 in and it has a new nose sprue. No idea if it is correct as I haven't had time to check. [Edit - I checked and there have been no corrections to the outline of the nose, canopy sills, canopies, or cockpit armor.] Regards, Stenka.. Your gonna be busy. Edit phone autocorrect😆 Edited June 8, 2016 by Wayfarer 30 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted November 16, 2022 Author Share Posted November 16, 2022 A quick update as I got Cold War Studios updated correction set for my second MiG-23BN and it is better than the first set! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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