chuck540z3 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Every day we are reminded of the dangers of concussions in football, hockey and a variety of other sports, with class action lawsuits against leagues now common for players who were exposed to repeated concussions years ago, and are now feeling the long term effects of same. Why then does the UFC and Boxing even exist that promote “knockouts”, which are of course concussions? You can add Hockey fights too. They are outdated and with the new knowledge on what happens to your brain after a concussion, stupid and unnecessary. Further, I really don’t get the hype about Ronda Rousey (who just suffered a concussion of her own) and other women beating the crap out of each other for big bucks. Why is this so popular? The demand is obviously there, but it seems hypocritical to try and reduce concussions in most sports but condone them in other “sports” that promote fighting. I don’t get it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
streetstream Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 If we have to stop doing things because they are proven unhealty, i'd start with smoking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fulcrum1 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 In 2009 I broke a bone in my wrist during a combatives tournament and the bone didn't heal. I had a real chance of never being able to use my left hand again, but by the grace of God and some awesome occupational surgeons I regained the use of my left hand and I'm able to do most of what I did before. So I do know the risks involved in full contact sports and I am huge advocate of them. Many "knockouts" are not actually concussions and one of the benefits of boxing or fighting in general is the time off between fights when someone is KO'd or does receive an injury. If you get "Rousey'd" you'll take a min of a month off before taking hits again, which is why many fighters can roll with the punches and keep swinging. Ali is a classic example, but that can be attributed to his fighting style of taking the hits on purpose and roping the dope. Going back to Hockey, Football, and like, the danger revolves around playing again so quickly after taking a hit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fulcrum1 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 If we have to stop doing things because they are proven unhealty, i'd start with smoking. Cycling is about as dangerous as anything out there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ALF18 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I'm with you, Chuck. Ever since I was forced to participate in the boxing tournament as a first-year Cadet at RMC in Kingston, I've hated boxing. I never worked up the hate required to hit my classmates, and I fail to see the appeal of watching the sport. Any contact sport has some risk, but UFC and boxing are way up at the top of the scale. Cycling? Disagree. ALF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fulcrum1 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) Cycling.... http://www.nhtsa.gov/Bicycles Edited December 10, 2015 by fulcrum1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jinxter13 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) It would be simpler to explain to a child why a clear sky is blue than to justify, qualify, or reason why a sport in which multiple hits, blows to the head (without protection) are part of the strategy; is condoned, and yet by context is considered nefarious or felonious in other sports where such hits to the head are for the most part unintentional . In boxing in both forms (WBC/UFC) one can say (I hope and suppose) the participants are willing and in most matches each believes he/she has a chance to do onto the other before the other does unto him/her; yet I have to ask are the rewards worth the ultimate risks. The greatest pugilist ever by most accounts; is now suffering a debilitating illness that is believed caused in part by punches taken during his boxing career. Edited December 10, 2015 by #1 Greywolf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 If we have to stop doing things because they are proven unhealty, i'd start with smoking. You missed my point completely. Hey guys, to be clear, I am NOT against sports like football and hockey where the risk of a concussion is high. Not a bit, I love those and many other sports with health risks, BUT, allowing hockey players to punch each other in the head in the name of sport is stupid. If you try to hit a player in the head with your elbow, you get suspended for a few games because that's apparently bad. If you punch a hockey player in the head with your fist during a fight, you get 5 minutes for fighting, because apparently that's not so bad. Why? I can't claim to be much of an expert on UFC, because as soon as I see it on TV, I switch the channel. What I do see from time to time before the channel is changed or it comes up on sports highlights, is two combatants trying to knock the other person out by either punching or kicking their brains loose. Why do people enjoy watching this stuff? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Check Six Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 This is an excellent question/thread IF kept as an academic topic. And not a debate on who's right or wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) Sex and violence sells (and not just in sport, but video games, movies, music). Combine the two and "ding ding" you have a winner (pun intended). Hence some peoples interest in Women's UFC and boxing etc...watch two not-unattractive women in tight clothes get all sweaty and roll around on the mat moaning, screaming, grunting and slapping each other senseless. Good times for some people but repulsive to others. To each their own. That's why we can change the channel and not attend the sport/event in question. What's good for some is not for others. For hockey, the vast majority of concussions occur due to legal hits and plays where the referees cannot call an infraction (and if they do make a bogus call because of an injury what is the fans reaction?). Only about 28% of concussions in hockey come from illegal hits to the head and even far less from fighting: http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-hockey-concussions-20130717-story.html Fighting numbers are dropping steadily without the need for a ban on fighting but concussions have remained the same at best, slightly increasing at worst (even with rule 48...yet many don't seem to wonder why...must be the few fights that do occur causing the problem...). Bottom line, the biggest violent acts in hockey are not fights despite what the media may have you think, but body contact. I played AAA for 16 years up to Junior, fought, and received two concussions from legal hits not fights. The only way to drastically drop the number of concussions in hockey is to remove body contact altogether which in turn would completely change the game and odds are negatively impact attendance and viewership (see my first sentence in this post). At the end of the day even removing body contact from hockey is no guarantee that concussions won't occur. As players (all players in ever contact sport) we KNEW from an early age the risks. I have no idea how a player today wouldn't know the risks! If you voluntarily play a contact sport (unlike ALF above who WAS forced) then you are doing so knowing the risks. Bottom line, at the end of the day if you don't want to watch violent sports or play violent sports then don't. Its simple really. Change the channel, don't got to the events, join a non-contact league etc. There are options. This isn't a "right vs. wrong" but a choice. Watch or don't watch...play or don't play. My two cents. Don. Edited December 10, 2015 by Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Check Six Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Excellent post, Don . If people stopped watching/paying for the events, it's business would wither on the vine. Let market forces work it's magic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) There are a few reasons. One we are not just talking about concussions, we are talking CTE. Once upon a time we thought brain damage occured only with giant hits that caused concussions, then we learned that it wasn't big hits, but thousands of small hits that cause brain damage CTE. Which is the big issue these sports face. You can regulate those obvious violent hits, but when the average football practice is causing more hits to the head than a 12 round boxing bout, and you have been selling mom's and dad's with pop warner and safety you are in trouble. Next, boxing and MMA are openly and unapologeticly violent sports. The NFL is literally trying to say it's as american as mom and apple pie and that's it's the fabric of our lives thus it has to be safe. If it's not safe it's not healthy and if it's not healthy it's not wholesome. The nfl has been trying to say it's relativly safe for years, boxing (who's popularity had been in decline for years now) and now the MMA have never tried to convince you they are safe and wholesome. The other answer is money. Boxing/MMA are not nearly as huge as these main sports and Billions are on the line, not to mention the "pipeline" of young talent that must fill in for the high attrition. Speaking of the pipeline it's threatened by mothers who won't let their kids play because they don't care about pride or the sport. Again these are sports that require decades of practice before going pro, meaning minors and kids are involved. Degrading their brains all along as they are developing Lawsuits are real things too. And for "student athletes" getting wrecked for life without the millions is a real threat. Having said all that the sports will continue because money, fame, and all the rewards that come with it will always have more applicants than slots. Players understand their lifespan in the sport at the pro level is short, so you play and cash out. Pros over 30 are rare in contact sports. So a lot of reasons. I talked to a former pro who basically said the nfl could have saved a lot of headaches by just offering medical for life. Make them immune to lawsuits, and they have the money. I think football is on the outs honestly it's not going to happen overnight but I bet in 25 years I will be telling my grand kids what football was. It won't go away in the south, but everywhere else... Edited December 11, 2015 by TaiidanTomcat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gambler Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I can't claim to be much of an expert on UFC, because as soon as I see it on TV, I switch the channel. What I do see from time to time before the channel is changed or it comes up on sports highlights, is two combatants trying to knock the other person out by either punching or kicking their brains loose. Why do people enjoy watching this stuff? I agree one hundred percent!.... If I see this come on the tv, the channel gets changed in the blink of an eye! "Why do people enjoy watching this stuff"?... I'm bugged if I know Chuck. Jeff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I think football is on the outs honestly it's not going to happen overnight but I bet in 25 years I will be telling my grand kids what football was. It won't go away in the south, but everywhere else... That is a bet I'd be more than willing to take. I don't see football going anywhere. There may be rule changes and there may be controversies related to injury etc... But I doubt football will be going anywhere for a very very long time. It's kind of funny you'd mention the south, like it's the only place with die hard football fans. But go ask a Notre Dame fan how they'd feel about football going away, or a USC fan, or a New England Patriots fan.. The only reason it feels like football is threatened is because of all the hype around the concussion controversy. Once that's died down, I give it a season or two tops where people really act like they care about players concussions, football will just keep on truckin'. Not saying it's good or bad or anything. Just saying it's almost become THE American sport like baseball once was. Remember about 10 years ago when people were saying baseball is dying? Well, it's still around and it's still a pretty big money making sport. ebb and tide. Just my opinion anyway Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Good points and discussion. When I ask the question, "Why do people enjoy watching this stuff?", I already know the answer of course, but I would like to hear from those who actually do watch and enjoy UFC to see if they can shed some light on what the attraction is, notwithstanding the "not-unattractive women in tight clothes get all sweaty and roll around on the mat moaning, screaming, grunting and slapping each other senseless". LOL, that was good. :lol: In a nutshell, in this day and age where we now know how bad concussions are for your long term health, I think both hockey and football are making some good strides to reduce the frequency and severity of them. 10 years ago if you got your bell rung after a big hit, you were back in the game as long as you could walk or skate. Now there is "concussion protocol" and other measures to make sure you are healthy (or at least probably healthy) before you are allowed to play again. UFC and Boxing? The main goal or both sports is still the "knock out", which has an extremely high chance of it being a concussion. Dumb, especially with what we know today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 The short of it? Because professional games of tag just don't seem to be as fun to watch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fulcrum1 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 In a nutshell, in this day and age where we now know how bad concussions are for your long term health, Repetitive concussions over and over again are different than receiving a concussion and resting it. Think soccer, football, basketball, etc as the greater offenders. Wrestling and boxing coaches are pretty good at spotting concussions and know how long to rest the athlete and that time is built in to the system of matches. A single concussion does not have a negative long term impact in most people, you rest it and move on. I think both hockey and football are making some good strides to reduce the frequency and severity of them. 10 years ago if you got your bell rung after a big hit, you were back in the game as long as you could walk or skate. Now there is "concussion protocol" and other measures to make sure you are healthy (or at least probably healthy) before you are allowed to play again. Not at all, it's lipstick on a pig. There is only one real concussion protocol and that is rest and unfortunately you can't take a month off in most professional sports, you drive on, win, and earn that paycheck. UFC and Boxing? The main goal or both sports is still the "knock out", which has an extremely high chance of it being a concussion. Dumb, especially with what we know today. Yes, and having learned plenty about brain injuries over the past decade from some of the leading smart folks in the field I'm probably not going to let my boys play football but I will let them fight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) That is a bet I'd be more than willing to take. I don't see football going anywhere. There may be rule changes and there may be controversies related to injury etc... But I doubt football will be going anywhere for a very very long time. It's kind of funny you'd mention the south, like it's the only place with die hard football fans. But go ask a Notre Dame fan how they'd feel about football going away, or a USC fan, or a New England Patriots fan.. The only reason it feels like football is threatened is because of all the hype around the concussion controversy. again the pipeline. I may not care about players, but I care about my kids. the evidence is incontrovertible, it ain't hype. You can look at the decline of youth leagues as well. There is no rule out there that a sport has to be popular and high paying, look at US soccer. What happens when football declines, revenues decline and people don't want to damage their brains for peanuts? college ball is already under fire for being exploitative, what happens when "student athletes" are getting their brains degraded for meaningless pieces of paper? I would disagree with concussions being the only issues as well. These games are becoming increasingly ridiculous in terms of rules an officiating, and a lot of that is panic about concussions, yes. There also things like a guy beating his wife in an elevator and the NFL creating a condescending campaign chastising its VIEWERS for not doing enough, when the league only gave him 2 games suspension. Then running that ad over and over and over for a game that has an average of 12 minutes of actual play for a 3 hour affair? How many times did I have to see those commercials even more frustrating, the ads made it sound like it was a behind closed doors problem-- when in the NFLs case it never was. They knew and gave him a slap on the wrist. Then they got busted. Those commercials are as much about domestic abuse as pepsi points are about the US economy. its nothing more than the brand. Its not just concussions. the quality on the field is suffering. the product is suffering. even the announcers are complaining. Last season was absolutely atrocious to the point I gave up on it this season. from the highlights I see and the complaints I hear the Calls and non calls are even worse than usual. I'm sure it will be around still in the future, I think it will be far more rare, and its already becoming progressively less recognizable, and the NFL which makes "big money" won't be happy with making "little money." but something beats nothing so the game will change to the point of being nearly unrecognizable Once that's died down, I give it a season or two tops where people really act like they care about players concussions, football will just keep on truckin'. Not saying it's good or bad or anything. Just saying it's almost become THE American sport like baseball once was. Remember about 10 years ago when people were saying baseball is dying? Well, it's still around and it's still a pretty big money making sport. ebb and tide. Just my opinion anyway Bill Baseball is still a shadow of itself, it would have been toast if a couple of roided up players didnt regenerate interest with a homerun record competition, even then it pales in comparison to what it was. The mere fact that we are talking about the sport that "was america's game" but has sense been replaced should prove sports are replaceable. What replaced boxing, and what replaced Baseball? Now ask what will replace (or at the least prove bigger/more profitable than) football Repetitive concussions over and over again are different than receiving a concussion and resting it. Think soccer, football, basketball, etc as the greater offenders. Wrestling and boxing coaches are pretty good at spotting concussions and know how long to rest the athlete and that time is built in to the system of matches. A single concussion does not have a negative long term impact in most people, you rest it and move on. Not at all, it's lipstick on a pig. There is only one real concussion protocol and that is rest and unfortunately you can't take a month off in most professional sports, you drive on, win, and earn that paycheck. Yes, and having learned plenty about brain injuries over the past decade from some of the leading smart folks in the field I'm probably not going to let my boys play football but I will let them fight. Bringing up the important facts that the NFL is starting "concussion protocols" that are called "common knowledge" in martial arts and boxing. I wonder if the NFL got caught in a catch 22, after telling everyone how safe it was they couldn't start all these protocols until the facts could no longer be ignored. but I don't know. Edited December 11, 2015 by TaiidanTomcat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 When I ask the question, "Why do people enjoy watching this stuff?", I already know the answer of course, but I would like to hear from those who actually do watch and enjoy UFC to see if they can shed some light on what the attraction is, I watch MMA, UFC specifically because I love one-on-one contests. Whether it be Golf, Table Tennis, Drag Racing or MMA. 30 years ago I trained in Tae Kwon Do and thoroughly enjoy the Martial Arts. I now do Tai Chi cuz I’m an old fart. I first started watching UFC when The Ultimate Fighter aired on Spike. A bunch of young street fighters who saw a better life for their limited life skills, but what kept me watching was the training, the discipline of learning a Mix of Martial Arts. Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Wrestling and train, train, train. When GSP was at the top of his game, he was a joy to watch. A lot of these guys, Georges St Pierre included, are at least Black Belts in their chosen discipline. To see the evolution in MMA in just the last 8 years or so, from a Street Fighter like Tank Abbott to an elegant fighter like Anderson Silva, to see the evolution of the skills and to see them implemented in a fight … a real world battle, not just a form, is a treat too. And when you realize that the majority of these guys like to be hit, they know the risks and they figure the reward outweighs that risk, then I happily watch guilt free! I do however not like it when, for instance, Frank Mir deliberately breaks someone’s forearm … yikes! I don’t watch team sports. I used to watch and play Hockey, but the skills these pros show off are sorely lacking. Football?… pul-eeze … You don’t understand why we watch UFC because you don’t know enough about the disciplines involved. It’s like watching Golf but never having played it, ask “why do you enjoy watching such a boring game?” Well, you have to know how to play the game in order to appreciate the skill these players display. Same with UFC. Watch a fight or 5, listen to Joe Rogan explain the strategy, describe the particular moves and the impending difficulty one opponent is about to deliver. But, ideally, you have to participate in the Martial Arts to have an appreciation for what these guys go through to get to that Octagon. Women fighters? … uh, no … tight outfits or not. How’s that Chuck … do you have a better idea now? Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 I watch MMA, UFC specifically because I love one-on-one contests. Whether it be Golf, Table Tennis, Drag Racing or MMA. 30 years ago I trained in Tae Kwon Do and thoroughly enjoy the Martial Arts. I now do Tai Chi cuz I’m an old fart. I first started watching UFC when The Ultimate Fighter aired on Spike. A bunch of young street fighters who saw a better life for their limited life skills, but what kept me watching was the training, the discipline of learning a Mix of Martial Arts. Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Wrestling and train, train, train. When GSP was at the top of his game, he was a joy to watch. A lot of these guys, Georges St Pierre included, are at least Black Belts in their chosen discipline. To see the evolution in MMA in just the last 8 years or so, from a Street Fighter like Tank Abbott to an elegant fighter like Anderson Silva, to see the evolution of the skills and to see them implemented in a fight … a real world battle, not just a form, is a treat too. And when you realize that the majority of these guys like to be hit, they know the risks and they figure the reward outweighs that risk, then I happily watch guilt free! I do however not like it when, for instance, Frank Mir deliberately breaks someone’s forearm … yikes! I don’t watch team sports. I used to watch and play Hockey, but the skills these pros show off are sorely lacking. Football?… pul-eeze … You don’t understand why we watch UFC because you don’t know enough about the disciplines involved. It’s like watching Golf but never having played it, ask “why do you enjoy watching such a boring game?” Well, you have to know how to play the game in order to appreciate the skill these players display. Same with UFC. Watch a fight or 5, listen to Joe Rogan explain the strategy, describe the particular moves and the impending difficulty one opponent is about to deliver. But, ideally, you have to participate in the Martial Arts to have an appreciation for what these guys go through to get to that Octagon. Women fighters? … uh, no … tight outfits or not. How’s that Chuck … do you have a better idea now? Pete Good answer. Well written and thought out. I don't agree, of course, but at least I have some new perspectives from the other side. Thanks, Chuck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jager Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) I do not know. Unnatural selection? Thinning the herd? Degradation of society standards? Devo? I stray from my build-table, back to models. Jager Edited December 12, 2015 by jager Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wardog Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) Great question and one I can't keep from replying to as I'm a huge fan of contact sports......primarily boxing followed closely by MMA. I haven't read this entire thread from the beginning so I apologize if I sound redundant....anyway, here are my 2 "worthless" cents. My reason for liking boxing is I was introduced to it as a kid when my father would drag me along to the Olympic Auditorium in East Los Angeles during the early 70's. Being Hispanic of Mexican descent, boxing is one of the sports we're typically brought up watching so by default, we acquire an interest in it. It's no different than people of European descent gravitating to hockey or Nascar. Not trying to be judgmental or racist here.......it is what it is. Do I feel contact sports are senseless, of course I do.....but I still like it. As far as contact sports being banned due to the long term effects of concussions suffered in American football, I don't see why football should have a say-so in anything but football. Yes, Mr. Ali is suffering from the effects of boxing, that said....one documented case (or a few more) should forever cause boxing to no longer exist? Using that logic, we should forever ban skydiving, Nascar, diving,(although not sports, let me throw in cigarettes and alcohol too) and a host of other sports because without checking statistics, I'd bet my life savings that on an individual basis, more deaths are attributed to those sports on a yearly basis than boxing, and losing one's life my friends is the biggest payment of all. Anyone who who makes a conscious decision to partake in any sport that is violent automatically accepts/assumes the risk involved in that sport. If those individuals are okay with it than so be it. As far as litigation is concerned, attorneys are trying to make a dollar out of everything so that aspect should not even be considered. That's like a cop suing cause he got shot in the line of duty.....no pal, you assumed that risk when you signed on the dotted line. Lastly, my personal opinion as to why so many people enjoy it is because we as humans are still very primitive in nature and violent sports satisfies some form of primal appetite we need fulfilled. At a core level, humans haven't evolved all that much in the last few thousand years and if it wasn't for all the rules or laws society has in place to keep us from acting like fools, our world would be very different. And last but not least, boxing, like soccer, is very ethnic/country specific and consequently has a huge fan base.....country pride is always on the line when combatants of different countries are battling it out so I think that adds a ton of fuel to the fire. Anyway, that was my "worthless 2 cents)! Elmo Edited December 13, 2015 by wardog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CorsairMan Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Baseball is still a shadow of itself, it would have been toast if a couple of roided up players didnt regenerate interest with a homerun record competition, even then it pales in comparison to what it was. The numbers don't agree with your conclusions. In fact, its never been better to be in the baseball business. A lot of TV contracts have been re-negotiated and signed in the last couple years. Because live sports is un-PVRable, tv revenue for sports and baseball in particular (because of the long season) has exploded. There have been a few articles lately that explain some of the super sized contracts that have been signed are actually under-paying the players relative to the splits of just a few years ago. I'll give you that roids did re-generate interest after that strike but 1998 was a long time ago and the revenues have completely changed the landscape. Teams used to be bought by individuals - but when teams are being valued at half a billion dollars... I can't agree that the sport "pales" in comparison to any other time. Its a license to print money if there ever was one. Of course, I predict there will be another strike when this CBA comes due. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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