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(SPOILERS) STAR WARS THE FORCE AWAKENS

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Watching the Red Letter Media review:

Great discussion of the film and the franchise. As usual a lot of potty-mouth and hammy humor before they get to the point, but they make excellent observations. :smiley-chores015:/>

Thanks,excellent review!!!!! A little offbeat but to the point.---John

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i saw the movie yesterday...and was really pleased. as a fan of the old trilogy ( never been able to see the prequels more than once!) my rating: 8/10

i find the new characters interesting, how the story tie them together was really well done (thanks you JJ) and some talented actors to play them.(with some funny pieces of dialogue)

the fact that the "villain" is an immature, emotional character is adding an interesting element to the equation... and the possibility to improve with time...

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I got to see it over the weekend with my wife. I thought it was a great movie and definitely had the right feel of Star Wars. There a few minor gripes that I had i.e... Death Star Planet vs. 4.0 was a little out done. I think the concept was great but I think instead of them being able to destroy it by hitting a small area again, I think they could have disabled it, rendered it mostly useless other than a new order base, or even caused something else to happen so it can be used in a future story line or something. But I guess it had to come to a conclusion somehow I suppose. It's becoming as cliche as crashing the Enterprise in Star Trek but I digress.

I also love Rey's character and Kylo's character is really well written. The idea of a flawed villian is great. And the twist on him "awakening" the force in Rey (who I think is his sister, but that's just my theory) was brilliantly done. You could really see it in his face when he realized what he'd done. Great job there. I like how the ships and vehicles all felt familiar but changed enough to believe 30 years had passed. Something the prequels didn't really do very well for me. There wasn't a good connection in Ep I, II or III from that point of view.

MY wife liked it but wasn't as impressed. She's a writer and it bothered her that everything was pretty easy to see coming. I can see where that would make it not as good a movie for a less serious fan, but I think it was interesting enough to keep the casual viewer interested. Perhaps not. I think she'll like it more when we watch it later on Blue ray. I'll probably go see it again in the theater if anything just to see the falcon in all her large screen glory.

I say go see it! worth it. It's never going to capture a 30 or 40 something year old's heart like Ep Iv did because Ep. IV was brand new. You can never see a movie like that with a 7-15 year olds eyes when you've already been there. But to a 7 year old today, it probably has done what Ep IV did to us when we first saw it. And it let me relive some of that magic for a couple of hours. Overall that's a success in my book.

Bill

Edited by niart17

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Saw it again. Didn't hate it as much as the first time. I didn't even notice the music this time for one. I still don't like Kylo or Fn, just don't think they're developed well.

I think had there been a movie before this one then it would be better. They just assume you know everything yet everything we've known (EU) has been torn out and replaced.

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Actually, with the exception of a few points, the Huffpost article is spot on. People keep saying TFA "feels" like a Star Wars movie. Well, that is because it is Star Wars...as in Star Wars, Episode 4, before it was known as "A New Hope," and it was all that existed of SW. TFA isn't a sequel, it's a reboot to get new characters online (and new merchandising, apparently, because they haven't made enough money).

The movie is almost exclusively fan service, with very little development or advancement of the SW canon. The super weapon trope is boring and repetitive, right down to a single vulnerability that is easily exploited by snub fighters after a small strike team lowers the defensive shields. The new hotness young upstart watches the elder teacher (who they've just met) die at the hands of a dark, foreboding figure, and suddenly has an overwhelming emotional reaction. (Ohhhh, do you feel bad for the single death of an old man you JUST met? Never mind the billions of people the evil organization just wiped out with the first demonstration of their super weapon...now hurry, do something heroic, because they're seconds away from firing it again!

The humor in it was very forced, and serves only as a nod to the original series. The interesting new concepts are wholly unexplained....and don't tell me "all will be revealed in time," because it's not like they have the same writer working with a coherent end story in mind. Whoever is up next is stuck with explaining the stuff JJ Abrams has put in place with zero backstory....Riann Johnson is up for that task in VIII. But essentially, they get to write the franchise out of whatever plot traps they've set for themselves.

Why the janky lightsaber if Kylo was trained?

What are the Knights of Ren?

Why is there both a Republic and a Resostance? Even Threepio says, "without the Republic Fleet, we're doomed." Well, where the heck are they? Why not call them in? The First Order certainly seems like an existential threat, so why is the Republic letting them be fought by a ragtag band of outgunned plot advancers, rather than engaging with its Fleet? Oh, right, fan service. This is Ep4, "The Force gets Re-Booted."

Look, it was a fun movie. Not great. It was definitely not genre changing or earth shattering, and I doubt very much it will hold up like the originals. But if you enjoyed it, great. However, don't blindly dismiss the fact JJ Abrams very much copied and intentionally replicated what has come before. I hope the next movie explores some of the very few, interesting new elements introduced in this movie. However, I doubt that very much, especially with Disney driving the train now. They're experts at identifying what people like and repackaging it and regurgitating it to squeeze every last cent from a franchise. So I fully expect more fan service ahead.

Based on the first weekend's receipts, people are certainly wiling to pay for it.

I saw it today, I liked it. I went out of my way to avoid spoilers and previews and thanks to a new baby, moving into a house that needs work, and starting a new job I avoided most of the hype, and the only trailer I saw was the one released last thanksgiving (2014). I think that helped a lot because everything was new and my expectations couldn't be lower after the prequals. So Captain phasma not being in it much didn't matter, I was just happy to see something neat.

I will echo some of what Waco says above, but I really don't think its necessarily bad. If I could title this it wouldnt be "the force awakens" it would be "we are righting the ship, and stoping the flooding, propulsion will be resumed in the next one" But thats why I got fired from my writing taglines gig. This is like rehabing after an injury, its back to basics so you can build back to where you were pre injury. The prequals are almost completely ignored, which was step 1.

People say its the same old tropes, and you are correct because star wars is all about old tropes. The Wise sage, the theif with the heart of gold, the young adventurer, the hot young girl with the hidden power to know exactly what you are thinking, and able to manipulate you into giving her whatever she asks and dropping your weapon on the way out the door

I'm sorry to say it but when you couldn't identify "the luke" or "the Han Solo" in the prequals, it was a terribly bad sign, and it only got more convoluted and messy. This movie has the tropes, they twist them slightly (we saw this with the kirk/spock switcheroo in the last star trek) like its the bad son, with the good father luring him back. We know the Lukes, we know the Han Solos, now that they have been established and we can assume the audience is genre savvy we can play with the universe a bit hopefully.

there was a lot of fan service, a lot of nostalgia feels shoved in there, but as my wife summed it up "it had to make up for 3 movies worth after the prequals dumped"

The big question now is if the second act goes down the dark road, like Empire. Empire is what made Star Wars last and become something deeper than a 1970s summer popcorn movie where the bad guys get dun blowed up (in space!!!!!)

So yes little nit picks, I could see the strings, but then again I knew I was going to a puppet show.

I am a little amazed though, that there is so much that is organic to the SW universe that does not get used. If instead of the First Order they used Mandelorians (no not clone troopers, no not jango but actual Mandalorians), the internet would break and Disney wouldn't know what to do with the money. (and yes I know this was explored in the CW Cartoon, but its a small band of rebels) And of course there are how many comics/novels etc that take place after Ep. 6??

I also wanted this:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/battlefront/images/c/c2/TIE_Defender.png/revision/latest?cb=20111029143655

Or this:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/c/cb/Predator-class_fighter_SotG.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081004171322

But instead got Tie fighters with an antenna and a repaint. (paint is cool, but I thought they would look more advanced 40 years on?)

Speaking of tie fighters, not a lot of people know it but the original tie concept was called the Joint Solar Fighter, and included commonality for a fighter, interceptor, and bomber. The bomber is the most maligned because it was designed for the imperial Marines Close Air Support mission and many believe its design hurt the others. Erreip Yerps who designed the highly successful Y-wing and X-wing has spoken about it.

Edited by TaiidanTomcat

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In terms of new vehicle designs I was kind of hoping for more. But I think keeping the look of the TIE's and X-Wings close to the classic design was again an attempt at making things look familiar with SW fans old and new (younger fans see classic looking TIE's in the Rebels cartoon so they would easily recognize them). Now that everyone, young and older fans, are on the same page I think...I hope...that we will see different designs in ships and vehicles as the new movies move forward. Kylo Ren's command shuttle was at least a new design. I wasn't sold on it at first but it's grown on me. I have the Revell kit of it and its pretty big! Then there was the Stormtrooper Transport...o.k. I guess and you just know that someone is going to make a model of it with perhaps some figures for diorama purposes. I also noticed that they changed the look of the AT-AT (I am assuming that's what the First Order is still calling them), making it look more streamlined and lacking the big head (almost like a tall AT-TE). Even the TIE's were ever so slightly changed. The Special Forces TIE version with the pilot and rear gunner and painted red/black had deflector shields and hyper drive capability, something previous movie TIE's lacked. Then the all black fighter only TIE version also had deflector shields but still no hyper drive. Rey's speeder reminded me of Luke's Landspeeder only flipped on its side. I guess time will tell but I am really hoping that we will see newer and updated designs. Lets face it, Disney and the writers can pretty much go anywhere they want with stories and designs now that Episode VII is done.

:cheers:

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In terms of new vehicle designs I was kind of hoping for more. But I think keeping the look of the TIE's and X-Wings close to the classic design was again an attempt at making things look familiar with SW fans old and new (younger fans see classic looking TIE's in the Rebels cartoon so they would easily recognize them). Now that everyone, young and older fans, are on the same page I think...I hope...that we will see different designs in ships and vehicles as the new movies move forward. Kylo Ren's command shuttle was at least a new design. I wasn't sold on it at first but it's grown on me. I have the Revell kit of it and its pretty big! Then there was the Stormtrooper Transport...o.k. I guess and you just know that someone is going to make a model of it with perhaps some figures for diorama purposes. I also noticed that they changed the look of the AT-AT (I am assuming that's what the First Order is still calling them), making it look more streamlined and lacking the big head (almost like a tall AT-TE). Even the TIE's were ever so slightly changed. The Special Forces TIE version with the pilot and rear gunner and painted red/black had deflector shields and hyper drive capability, something previous movie TIE's lacked. Then the all black fighter only TIE version also had deflector shields but still no hyper drive. Rey's speeder reminded me of Luke's Landspeeder only flipped on its side. I guess time will tell but I am really hoping that we will see newer and updated designs. Lets face it, Disney and the writers can pretty much go anywhere they want with stories and designs now that Episode VII is done.

:cheers:/>/>

I have a slightly different take on the subject of minor changes to the vehicles. I think that actually adds a little more believability to it. If you put it in perspective of current aircraft. Take the F-18 Super Hornet for example as compared to the original F-18. From an asthetic design point of view they are basically the same shape with some minor changes overall to the orginal 18s, which started their service 30 years ago. To an average non-aircraft savvy Joe, they are pretty much the same plane when seen flying. That's much more realistic, especially when you consider the "Empire" apparently disbanned and then pretty much reformed and the rebellion is always apparently underfunded. I like that they didn't try to drastically change the vehicles (like they did in the prequals. Those designs seemed forced (no pun intended) in my opinion.

Bill

Edited by niart17

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I have a slightly different take on the subject of minor changes to the vehicles. I think that actually adds a little more believability to it. If you put it in perspective of current aircraft. Take the F-18 Super Hornet for example as compared to the original F-18. From an asthetic design point of view they are basically the same shape with some minor changes overall to the orginal 18s, which started their service 30 years ago. To an average non-aircraft savvy Joe, they are pretty much the same plane when seen flying. That's much more realistic, especially when you consider the "Empire" apparently disbanned and then pretty much reformed and the rebellion is always apparently underfunded. I like that they didn't try to drastically change the vehicles (like they did in the prequals. Those designs seemed forced (no pun intended) in my opinion.

Bill

Oh I agree in terms of the TIE's and X-Wing's. I think the progression from ROTJ to TFA was believable, especially in finally equipping the TIE's with deflector shields (and hyper drives for the SF TIE's). I was referring more towards different/newer designs. Aside from Ren's shuttle nothing really gave me that "WOW" factor like when we first saw AT-AT's and Snowspeeders in ESB, or the Super Star Destroyer, TIE Interceptor, and Tydirium Shuttle in ROTJ. Even the new AT-AT's look like they took a step back IMHO and I much prefer the older design. Again, exciting to think where the writers/designers will take us.

:cheers:

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Oh I agree in terms of the TIE's and X-Wing's. I think the progression from ROTJ to TFA was believable, especially in finally equipping the TIE's with deflector shields (and hyper drives for the SF TIE's). I was referring more towards different/newer designs. Aside from Ren's shuttle nothing really gave me that "WOW" factor like when we first saw AT-AT's and Snowspeeders in ESB, or the Super Star Destroyer, TIE Interceptor, and Tydirium Shuttle in ROTJ. Even the new AT-AT's look like they took a step back IMHO and I much prefer the older design. Again, exciting to think where the writers/designers will take us.

:cheers:/>

You didn't like the First Orders star destroyer star destroyer?

Which looked like a star destroyer stacked on top of another star destroyer and then fattened out.

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The Resurgent-class Star Destroyer was o.k. but it looks more like a take off of the Venator-Class from the Clone Wars era to me. I miss the neck and ominous looking bridge superstructure of the Imperial-Class Star Destroyer. But like Ren's Command Shuttle I am sure it will grow on me as time goes on and it makes more appearances in novels and later movies.

:cheers:

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You didn't like the First Orders star destroyer star destroyer?

Which looked like a star destroyer stacked on top of another star destroyer and then fattened out.

Reminds me of the hot pocket hot pocket..."it's a hot pocket stuffed inside of a hot pocket".

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I have a slightly different take on the subject of minor changes to the vehicles. I think that actually adds a little more believability to it. If you put it in perspective of current aircraft. Take the F-18 Super Hornet for example as compared to the original F-18. From an asthetic design point of view they are basically the same shape with some minor changes overall to the orginal 18s, which started their service 30 years ago. To an average non-aircraft savvy Joe, they are pretty much the same plane when seen flying. That's much more realistic, especially when you consider the "Empire" apparently disbanned and then pretty much reformed and the rebellion is always apparently underfunded. I like that they didn't try to drastically change the vehicles (like they did in the prequals. Those designs seemed forced (no pun intended) in my opinion.

Bill

but we already see new tie variants throughout the original including this:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/65/Tieinter2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20060705184051

even the first movie had "Vader's tie" if going for nostalgia and "max bad guy" why couldn't they all look like this:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/6/65/Tiex1-headon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130314003653

??

and the super hornet is an exception to the rule. F-22s look different from F-15s, F-15s look different from F-4s, F-4s look different from F-86s

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I thought de-evolution in the prequel ships was done nicely ...

-Gregg

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In terms of new vehicle designs I was kind of hoping for more. But I think keeping the look of the TIE's and X-Wings close to the classic design was again an attempt at making things look familiar with SW fans old and new (younger fans see classic looking TIE's in the Rebels cartoon so they would easily recognize them).

I think you underestimate how much these kids know their star wars including seeing all six movies clone war, video games, etc +rebels. (especially the ships-- I got to look up what a "gozanti cruiser" was the other day-- I had no clue, these kids know this stuff back to front, just like I did at their age) and even the ones that (somehow) didn't and only saw rebels or never saw any star wars at all-- is it really that hard to learn which ship is the "bad guy?" after seeing it in the first 5 minutes of the movie INSIDE the bad guy ship? How did kids in the 1970s know the "bad guys" from the good guys without countless advertising and promotional explanation?

Surely adding another wing to the already very familiar tie fighter is less of a change than a total repaint?

Let the debate begin.

For plot purposes the whole point of the tie fighter is to get the guys off the enemy ship (which is why there is suddenly a second seat in there) and to attack the good guys later on jakku and again at death star III. What type of Tie, or even the name is unimportant to the plot. You could fan splice in whatever kind of Tie you wanted it and it won't hurt anything. It was a missed opportunity and if you are a SW fan you note the Empire going to the Tie Interceptor in ROTJ. and the EU had the Tie defender. Why not have a nod toward that as well as this movie makes literally decades and hundreds of books and comics in the Expanded Universe obsolete in one fell swoop? Where is their fan service?

It is what it is, but lets not blame the kids for a lazy repaint. I'm not trying to pick on you.

in every original star wars we have bent wing tie fighters, and every star wars we introduce a new type. But suddenly this one is beyond comprehension to the fans if it doesn't look exactly like ONE of the tie variants in the original? We couldn't add a 3rd bent wing without losing the audience?

Edited by TaiidanTomcat

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It's a fantasy, not really SciFi. Don't over think it. Like you said, if you can believe in laser swords...

Wow, that Huffington Post article is horrible. Talk about nitpicking! You could pick apart the OT just the same.

I'm with you on that, SCI-FI has many levels of realistic depending on the show or movie series. If you want more "realistic" watch Star Trek and Geordie Laforge may teach you some points on warp field theory. Star Wars is a bit on the other side as in more unrealistic. It's kinda known before you watch the movies, from giant battle stations to giant star destroyers with our present day scientific understanding it won't happen, the point isn't for it to be realistic it is for the story as set in the environment. The Force Awakens as advertised is for the new generation, they produced for new viewers old and young the experience of seeing a brand new Star Wars movie. A good story and new young characters, in this regard the movie is a grand slam, with over $1 billion in ticket sales so far it is undoubtedly a success. People may nit-pick it but again its sci-fi and the first movie in a new trilogy, more will be explained. The Huffington Post article is abysmal, I might address a few points:

Edited by GRAIL007

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but we already see new tie variants throughout the original including this:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/65/Tieinter2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20060705184051

even the first movie had "Vader's tie" if going for nostalgia and "max bad guy" why couldn't they all look like this:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/6/65/Tiex1-headon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130314003653

??

and the super hornet is an exception to the rule. F-22s look different from F-15s, F-15s look different from F-4s, F-4s look different from F-86s

True, but even the F-15, F-4 etc.. also reflect what I'm talking about. 30 years isn't a far stretch for the service life of aircraft designs with minor changes. The F-4b isn't much different looking from the G models. The span of their service life fits into the 30-ish year time frame. That's all I meant. I agree some new ships would be cool, but getting rid of the classic looking ships completely would have been a mistake in my opinion.

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I often think we over-analyze Star Wars (I am guilty). I consider it a fantasy or myth rather than true Sci-Fi.

A long time ago = Once upon a time...

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TIE Fighters! This could have its own epic thread on the level of the A-10 or F-35!

Love the TIE Interceptor and Defender models. I guarantee we will see more varients in future movies. As soon as Hasbro and Disney require additional toy revenue :P

I understand why the kept Ep 7 simple in straighter designs being it was a reintroduction film / soft reboot.

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I think you underestimate how much these kids know their star wars including seeing all six movies clone war, video games, etc +rebels. (especially the ships-- I got to look up what a "gozanti cruiser" was the other day-- I had no clue, these kids know this stuff back to front, just like I did at their age) and even the ones that (somehow) didn't and only saw rebels or never saw any star wars at all-- is it really that hard to learn which ship is the "bad guy?" after seeing it in the first 5 minutes of the movie INSIDE the bad guy ship? How did kids in the 1970s know the "bad guys" from the good guys without countless advertising and promotional explanation?

I don't believe that I do underestimate the kids. I have a 7 and 13 year old myself and as an elementary school teacher I deal with kids from Kindergarten to the 8th grade on a daily basis. I do know that they know this stuff (including much of the science behind SW). I also know based on my conversations with them leading up to the release and shortly afterwards they loved the "new" TIE's and X-Wing's and none seemed particularly bummed or upset that there wasn't a TIE Defender, TIE Hunter, or even a TIE Crawler rather then the new FO Snowspeeder (add in any TIE version you choose). None were bummed that there were no major new bad guy or good guy ships. They were just stoked to finally have a new SW movie to go to as they are too young (...thankfully...) to remember seeing Episodes I, II, and III in the theatre. As knowledgeable and enthusiastic fans they too appreciate iconic SW vehicles that have become symbols of the franchise. The movie pretty much was filled with vehicles most SW fans of all ages know and love...Millennium Falcon (a different sensor dish), new Resurgent-Class Star Destroyer (different in many ways but you can still see its lineage to the Imperial-Class), X-Wings (different intakes and slightly altered fuselage), TIE's (different but IMHO a good 30 years different from ROTJ), even a jacked up Death Star. Aside from an AT-AT (which were there in the background but played no role in this film), Slave-1, and possibly one or two other ships the film hit most of the key iconic ships-come-symbols of SW fans of all ages. If any age bracket is upset over the lack of new designs its us older SW fans (as I have myself admitted to in posts here in this thread). But honestly, had the movie thrown in any of the many different versions of the TIE and not moved the more traditional design forward I don't think it would have changed the movies appeal that much. Keep everything the same but ditch the traditional TIE for a new one and the movie would have been as successful regardless IMO. Would it have been cool? Sure!!! I have stated that myself already. But at the end of the day this "reboot" did what it was designed to do and now the franchise can move forward on a positive note having exercised the demons of I,II, and II and go in whichever direction they desire both in story line and vehicle design.

Again, don't get me wrong, I would have loved to see different designs. But I understand why they went the way they did.

Cheers...and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

:cheers:

Don.

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I often think we over-analyze Star Wars (I am guilty). I consider it a fantasy or myth rather than true Sci-Fi.

A long time ago = Once upon a time...

Guilty here... :wave:

:beer4:

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I often think we over-analyze Star Wars (I am guilty).

Surely you jest!?!? Is that even possible? :woot.gif:

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In a world full of dark news every day, Star Wars is a bright spot of fun.

When I first saw it in 1977, I'd never seen anything like it before or since. How many other vintage '77 things are you still interested in?

In 2015, I'm more jaded, and have seen a lot more things, but that doesn't diminish my hope that some things can still be good.

I enjoyed it very much - my friends and I actually enjoyed the familiarity, while introducing new aspects at the same time.

The fact that it provides so much fun, for so many (including a whole new generation of younglings) is a good thing.

I'm looking forward to seeing it again, and the next movie as well.

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