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Help with that "special" Littlebird / Building the Seapray MD500


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July 2018 Edit - this thread started out a few years back with me asking a lot of questions and some very helpful folks patiently providing guidance / suggestions.   The actual build finally commenced at starts on Page 4.   My progress is slow, expect this to run for a looong time.  

 

Ever since Loach Driver discovered this most interesting photo (note, photo is courtesy of Manfred Faber / Planepictures.net, original URL with a better quality pic here http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=961314 😞

1279777214_zpsgonsz8y7.jpg

I've been thinking about trying to build a model of it. It's been on the back burner for multiple reasons but now that I've just wrapped up a long-term project and Werner's Wings has including markings for this helo in one of their new decal releases, it might be time to take a crack at N1111U.

I was hoping some of the experts on this forum could give me some pointers.

Base kit - Can't use the Dragon OH-6A / AH-6J, would the MD500 "TOW Defender" kit work ( http://www.hlj.com/product/DRA3525 )? It has the 5 bladed main rotor and most importantly, it has cabin doors, which the other two kits lack. Are there any other Dragon kits out there that would work? Not sure if the Tow Defender is even available anymore?

FLIR - I've got a Cobra Company MH-6J MELB conversion set that comes with a FLIR. It looks to be similar, would this be a good fit?

Planks / External Fuel Tanks - These will be tough. Appears to be cylindrical tanks with the upper 1/4 flattened and planks on top. Obviously need to be scratchbuilt. Any thoughts on how they mount to the fuselage? Would it be the same configuration as the MH-6 planks with the bottom of the aft doors cut out to allow the mounting platform to pass under them? Any thoughts on what those tubes are on the exterior just under the plank itself? I know this is pure conjecture since we only have a single picture to work with. Just looking for "educated guesses".

Instrument Panel - the TOW Defender kit comes with a "T" Panel which looks to be appropriate for this helo. I'd probably mount an RHAW display on it, similar to what I did for my AH-6C. Any thoughts on where the FLIR display would go? The Cobra MH-6 set has FLIR screens, but they are designed to mount outboard of a later style "vertical" instrument panel.

Interior - I'd go with the Cobra parts for the interior. Has some avionic "boxes" that mount behind the pilots and a few other bits. Any thoughts to what is in the aft compartment? On the original thread there was discussion about a fuel tank. Again this is just conjecture but I'm open to suggestions (as well as pics of this fuel tank). Doesn't have to be dead on since the aft windows are heavily tinted.

SATCOM Antenna - needs to be scratchbuilt, looks to be doable. Anyone have a pic of what the SATCOM control panel looks like?

Misc Antennas - Should be pretty easy to scratchbuild the three large white antennas under the fuselage. The forward facing RHAW antennas come in the Cobra MELB set. The aft facing antennas on rear of the transmission housing (assume they are also RHAW antennas) would have be scratchbuilt, as would the IR position position light. No biggie.

Misc stuff - Any thoughts from the one picture on whether the greenhouse panels are present (if so would they be tinted black or green?)? Can't tell if they are there or if they are replaced with sheet metal. Slime lights need to be added, no biggie.

Other than the above, this should be real straightforward project :)

Any info, suggestions or random feedback is greatly appreciated.

John

Edited by 11bee
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This has an interesting n-number registration with the FAA, http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N1111U

It's 'special'. Its registration indicates it is a fixed wing aircraft. The FAA has apparently not gotten the upgrade notice about the wing-type.

Jager

Edited by jager
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This has an interesting n-number registration with the FAA, http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N1111U

It's 'special'. Its registration indicates it is a fixed wing aircraft. The FAA has apparently not gotten the upgrade notice about the wing-type.

Jager

The FAA database is up to date. The helicopter had the registration prior to the fixed-wing. The photo is old.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

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A couple photos to consider

The side boxes on the 500P in part contained bulky equipment including a big dewar vessel for the early-generation night vision system. Other than the somewhat similar curved angles, I don't think any of this is related in any way to what's mounted on N1111U.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

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Mischelo20147_zpsx4igmqsh.jpg

I scanned this image from the Us Army Aviation Museum's archives a long time ago.  LD can confirm this, but I thought this bird was called an OH-6D. The pods contain a night precision hover control system. Here's a diagram of it.

Mischelo20148_zpsjlzg9ius.jpg

And here's what the Instrument panel looks like.

Ray

Mischelo20146_zpsrq8tv0jv.jpg

Edited by rotorwash
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Hi John. I think your initial observations are spot-on. Here are my observations that are based purely on this one photo and my best guess of what this machine actually is.

Base kit - The best base kit to start with would be the AH-6 Little Bird kit but with a full set of doors from the Defender kit.

FLIR - The Cobra Company FLIR does look like it'll be suitable for this project.

Planks / External Fuel Tanks - I'd reckon these tanks are made by a company called Robertson. Their tanks have a bracket that runs under the belly between the two tanks. It is approximately positioned at the point where the belly-hook is usually fitted. I'd guess the tanks are also bolted onto the fixing point where the steps are usually attached for the rear cabin. These attachments would be hidden under the tank so nothing to worry about there. I'd reckon the tanks can be made from plastic or balsa wood. If plastic is used, glue some plastic strut together until you have a rectangular box just bigger than the tank, then sand it to shape. It will need lots of sanding and constant dry-fitting but I'd say you certainly have the skills to make a pair of tanks. The people-planks from the Cobra set should help with the sizing. I have no idea what the tubes are.

Instrument Panel - I'd say the IP is probably close to the AH-6J panel. I doubt this ship had the T-Panel as this machine was originally a D-Model and that had the original narrow-column type IP, which was adopted and modified for the AH-6G/J. I'd say the FLIR display was similar to the AH-6Gs used in Mogadishu.

Interior - I'd say your original plan for the interior is correct. Base it on the interior of any Little Bird from around 1987. The rear cabin tank is visible in the photo of a "Earnest Will" AH-6F in the LB thread.

SATCOM Antenna - I have no idea for this.

Misc stuff - I think the overhead windows are still fitted and these and the rear portion of the upper windscreen bubble are tinted black. I've heard Tamiya Smoke is best to help achieve this.

Hopefully something above will help.

LD.

Edited by Loach Driver
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Mischelo20147_zpsx4igmqsh.jpg

The OH-6D title was used on a proposed Hughes scout helicopter for the ASH programme in the mid-seventies and was then used again for the Hughes AHIP scout proposal that I made a model of some years ago. This ship in the photo above was referred to as the Hughes 500P by the CIA and Hughes and as the NOH-6P by the US Army. This ship was one of two modified machines built for the Operation Mainstreet mission in Viet Nam in 1972. One crashed out there while the other one did the mission and went back to the USA. The above photo is possibly from 1974.

As previously stated, the photo was taken at the Hughes facility at Culver City. I reckon the date is probably 1974. There is a lot of interesting stuff in the background. The big pale green building in the left background is Building 45, the original hangar where the HK-4 Hercules Flying Boat was constructed and where the OH-6/500 production line was based. Also visible in the background is the whirl cage used for rotor system testing. It looks like an Apache ground test vehicle is in there doing some testing. Also, if you look behind the first red-and-white 500C in the background, you will see 62-4211, one of the original YOH-6A prototypes. It is the one that went to the USAF for a test programme they were doing.

The 500P was converted from a 500C airframe even though it has a H-6 designation. It was also painted with a serial number on the doghouse that had already been assigned to a regular OH-6A in normal US Army service. The two 500Ps were converted in a Nissen Hut at Culver City which was also used to store Howard Hughes' Hughes Racer as well as the engines from the HK-4 Hercules!

During the actual wire-tap mission, only small portions of the flight were conducted with the rotor rpm reduced to 67%. The route had been mapped out and the noise-sensitive areas were flown in quiet-mode while the rest was flown at 100% engine and rotor rpm. Apparently, the 500P didn't fly very well at 67% rpm and control was marginal. It was only safe to fly straight-and-level. No turns or climbs or descents could be made at reduced rpm. Apparently, in quite mode, the 500P was quieter than the Lockheed YO-3 Quiet Star!

Ten days after the crew successfully carried out the mission, the CIA asked the USAF to photograph the site where the tap and radio relay had been inserted. The tap had stopped working for some reason. Somewhere along the way, the CIA's request for a reconnaissance overflight of the tap-site somehow became a request to destroy the site!

The CIA subsequently received word their wire-tap equipment had been destroyed instead of a set of photos of the site, as requested. A B-52 had been dispatched and had obliterated the site. I guess the CIA can probably laugh about the whole episode now. Or maybe not. :bandhead2:

LD.

Edited by Loach Driver
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Planks / External Fuel Tanks - I'd reckon these tanks are made by a company called Robertson. Their tanks have a bracket that runs under the belly between the two tanks. It is approximately positioned at the point where the belly-hook is usually fitted. I'd guess the tanks are also bolted onto the fixing point where the steps are usually attached for the rear cabin. These attachments would be hidden under the tank so nothing to worry about there. I'd reckon the tanks can be made from plastic or balsa wood. If plastic is used, glue some plastic strut together until you have a rectangular box just bigger than the tank, then sand it to shape. It will need lots of sanding and constant dry-fitting but I'd say you certainly have the skills to make a pair of tanks. The people-planks from the Cobra set should help with the sizing. I have no idea what the tubes are.

Thanks LD. Yeah those plank-tanks are the biggest stumbling block to starting this project. I decided to send an email to Robertson asking if they might have any info they could share (assuming they were ones who built those). No reply yet... I'm not going to hold my breath. :)

I'm not quite clear on how you said they are mounted. I had visualized something like a standard early MH-6 plank set-up, with the fuel tanks affixed to the bottom of the planks. Any additional info or pics to further explain your suggestion?

With regard to those tubes, I'm wondering if they might be simple grips for the operators to hold onto?

Still trying to figure out what to put in the rear cabin. Not sure about going with an aux fuel tank or just leave it empty with maybe some avionics boxes. Question - you seem to be up on MD500 specs. Would the aircraft shown be able to even lift off with operators on the planks, the external tanks full and a full aux tank in the back? I know these helos are pretty ballsy but still....

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Question. Would the aircraft shown be able to even lift off with operators on the planks, the external tanks full and a full aux tank in the back? I know these helos are pretty ballsy but still....

The lift capacity of N1111U is all dependent on which main rotor transmission and gearbox it was fitted with. Was it fitted with a D-model transmission or a 530F transmission. My guess is that it had a D transmission (similar to the MH-6H/J) and so it possibly wouldn't have lifted two pilots, four operators, full internal fuel, full external fuel pods and also a full internal auxiliary fuel tank, even if the engine didn't max out on turbine outlet temperature with this load.

With all tanks full of fuel, you are probably looking at a long-range mission with two pilots and possibly two passengers only, along the lines of a deep-insertion-behind-enemy-lines type flight. For standard MH-6-type ops with four-on-the-people-planks, fuel would be down to full internal with maybe a little extra in the pods at the very maximum.

With an auxiliary fuel tank in the rear cabin as well, it just becomes a flying fuel tank that will have lots of range but little other lift capacity. If it was used in the C&C or SIGINT role, then a long loiter time would be useful. For the ultra-long range missions, I think you are looking at the Hercules/Little Bird combination to get you to the middle of nowhere. Just my guess, based on my limited knowledge of the Little Bird family.

LD.

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Question. Would the aircraft shown be able to even lift off with operators on the planks, the external tanks full and a full aux tank in the back? I know these helos are pretty ballsy but still....

The lift capacity of N1111U is all dependent on which main rotor transmission and gearbox it was fitted with. Was it fitted with a D-model transmission or a 530F transmission. My guess is that it had a D transmission (similar to the MH-6H/J) and so it possibly wouldn't have lifted two pilots, four operators, full internal fuel, full external fuel pods and also a full internal auxiliary fuel tank, even if the engine didn't max out on turbine outlet temperature with this load.

With all tanks full of fuel, you are probably looking at a long-range mission with two pilots and possibly two passengers only, along the lines of a deep-insertion-behind-enemy-lines type flight. For standard MH-6-type ops with four-on-the-people-planks, fuel would be down to full internal with maybe a little extra in the pods at the very maximum.

With an auxiliary fuel tank in the rear cabin as well, it just becomes a flying fuel tank that will have lots of range but little other lift capacity. If it was used in the C&C or SIGINT role, then a long loiter time would be useful. For the ultra-long range missions, I think you are looking at the Hercules/Little Bird combination to get you to the middle of nowhere. Just my guess, based on my limited knowledge of the Little Bird family.

LD.

Thanks LD. Based on this, I think it's unlikely that it has an interior aux tank. I recall reading somewhere that a classified unit used an MD500-type helo to fly a VVIP out of Beirut in the mid 80's. I believe they flew the guy at night, low level over the Med to Cyprus (could be wrong on the final destination). This helo looks like it might be set up for the job. Doubt they'd put a VVIP outside on the planks so I think I'll go with the rear seats in place and maybe just some black boxes.

Still need to figure out how those externals were mounted.

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Thanks LD. Based on this, I think it's unlikely that it has an interior aux tank. I recall reading somewhere that a classified unit used an MD500-type helo to fly a VVIP out of Beirut in the mid 80's. I believe they flew the guy at night, low level over the Med to Cyprus (could be wrong on the final destination). This helo looks like it might be set up for the job. Doubt they'd put a VVIP outside on the planks so I think I'll go with the rear seats in place and maybe just some black boxes.

Still need to figure out how those externals were mounted.

I thought of that VIP flight when I saw this ship first, too. Yea, I think you are correct with regard to a few black boxes in the rear, similar to the MH-6H/J. I'd guess that a set of rear seats were removable, depending on the mission. Certainly, for the VIP mission, rear seats would have been fitted.

I know I have a photo or drawing somewhere of the tanks/pod set-up. I'll keep looking and get back to you.

LD.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I think I'll give this one a go. Question (probably first of many), any thoughts for what color the interior would be? From the sole picture it's pretty hard to tell. Only bit of the cockpit that you can discern any color on it is the cyclic. Could be either flat black or a darker grey. Anyone know what the standard interior color would be for a civilian bird circa-mid 80's? Looks to have an OH-6 type stretched fabric seat, in the regular grey color.

However, I assume that when this picture was taken the folks flying it would be utilizing NVG's (as was the 160th SOAR during this time), so I guess I'm leaning towards a flat black NVG interior, similar to a Littlebird.

Sound reasonable?

Despite a couple of attempts, the folks at Robinson haven't replied to my emails on those "plank-tanks". I'll see what I can find out there for pics of other set ups and try to make some educated guesses. I'm still baffled on what those bars are on the edge of the planks. At first, I thought they might be grips for the riders but they are really in the wrong spot and they don't go the length of the plank (are also off-center) so I'm back to assuming they are some sort of conduit or fuel lines. Another interesting thing I noticed is that there are two lighter blue colored panels on the tanks. Assuming they were fuel tanks, one would think they would be uniform assemblies, with uniform color. Wonder if those lighter sections might be dielectric panels for antennas or access panels for (maybe?) avionics? For the purposes of building a model, it's irrelevant. Just speculating....

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I think I'll give this one a go. Question (probably first of many), any thoughts for what color the interior would be? From the sole picture it's pretty hard to tell. Only bit of the cockpit that you can discern any color on it is the cyclic. Could be either flat black or a darker grey. Anyone know what the standard interior color would be for a civilian bird circa-mid 80's? Looks to have an OH-6 type stretched fabric seat, in the regular grey color.

However, I assume that when this picture was taken the folks flying it would be utilizing NVG's (as was the 160th SOAR during this time), so I guess I'm leaning towards a flat black NVG interior, similar to a Littlebird.

Sound reasonable?

Despite a couple of attempts, the folks at Robinson haven't replied to my emails on those "plank-tanks". I'll see what I can find out there for pics of other set ups and try to make some educated guesses. I'm still baffled on what those bars are on the edge of the planks. At first, I thought they might be grips for the riders but they are really in the wrong spot and they don't go the length of the plank (are also off-center) so I'm back to assuming they are some sort of conduit or fuel lines. Another interesting thing I noticed is that there are two lighter blue colored panels on the tanks. Assuming they were fuel tanks, one would think they would be uniform assemblies, with uniform color. Wonder if those lighter sections might be dielectric panels for antennas or access panels for (maybe?) avionics? For the purposes of building a model, it's irrelevant. Just speculating....

It's possible that those tanks may have been made by Contract Fabrication and Design of Princeton, TX.

Chris M

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It's possible that those tanks may have been made by Contract Fabrication and Design of Princeton, TX.

Chris M

Thanks Chris, I sent them an email. Fingers crossed. I would hope that close to 30 years later, if they were involved with fabricating these, they would be able to release some info. But then again, I figured by now we'd be seeing a lot more info released on early TF-160 helos and that hasn't exactly been forthcoming....

Their website has a pretty cool Littlebird video (4th down). Has some silly Hollywood stuff but mixed in is a very impressive combat sequence (I assume from Iraq) of an AH-6 doing it's thing.

EDIT - while staring at the picture of N1111U, I noticed something else. If you look closely at the registration number, you can make out small "bolts" at each corner. It almost looks like the registration number is painted on a separate panel. Given that early USAF C-130 "Heavy Chain" special ops aircraft had the US insignia on a removable placard (so they could quickly become "anonymous"), I wonder if the operators of this helo did the same thing? I took a quick look at some other MD500's and couldn't find any panels or protruding bolts in that location.

Edited by 11bee
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I did some close looking too and I picked up what appears to be something that may be different on the opposite side. Look between the aft skid legs and there is something there that doesn't belong on the bottom of that aircraft. It looks like something that is extended from a mounted device or system on the right side. IF what is seen on left side is actually a fuel tank, two of those filled up would be extremely heavy for that airframe to lift given it's configuration at the time. Today's MH-6M might lift it.....

Chris M

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I did some close looking too and I picked up what appears to be something that may be different on the opposite side. Look between the aft skid legs and there is something there that doesn't belong on the bottom of that aircraft. It looks like something that is extended from a mounted device or system on the right side. IF what is seen on left side is actually a fuel tank, two of those filled up would be extremely heavy for that airframe to lift given it's configuration at the time. Today's MH-6M might lift it.....

Chris M

Yeah, I noticed that too. Don't know what to make of it, can't imagine why this helo would have an asymmetric configuration. I thought it might be some sort of bracket mounted on the under-fuselage? Really can't tell either way.

With regard to performance in this configuration, I know nothing about this subject. Loach Driver indicated that it could have been possible for this helo to lift some plank-mounted operators, with fuel in those externals (if that is actually what they are). Unless we ever get a picture of the starboard side, I'll probably assume it has the same configuration as the port.

The more I look at the picture, more odd stuff I see. I also noted a small white / silver "bump" located about a foot behind the registration. Maybe an IR position light?

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Yeah, I noticed that too. Don't know what to make of it, can't imagine why this helo would have an asymmetric configuration. I thought it might be some sort of bracket mounted on the under-fuselage? Really can't tell either way.

With regard to performance in this configuration, I know nothing about this subject. Loach Driver indicated that it could have been possible for this helo to lift some plank-mounted operators, with fuel in those externals (if that is actually what they are). Unless we ever get a picture of the starboard side, I'll probably assume it has the same configuration as the port.

The more I look at the picture, more odd stuff I see. I also noted a small white / silver "bump" located about a foot behind the registration. Maybe an IR position light?

Some rudimentary photo analysis - varied the brightness and contrast:

Plank and tank - the fuel tank appears to be strapped to the bottom of the plank using the two wide metal bands that some people have thought were electronic panels of some kind. You can see clamp-on connectors at the top end of each band.

n1111u-tank-whole-light-arrows_zpslrcwu51s.jpg

Fuel tank tubing/wiring:

n1111u-tank-connections-annot_zpsm14clkd4.jpg

Fast rope FRIES mountings:

n1111u-fries-mount-annot_zpsp4dmgri0.jpg

Lights on side - to the right is a nav light (red). To the upper left is an IR button light. Interestingly both of these are further to the rear than normal. These are washed out due to my bumping up the brightness - it's easier to discern the button light structure in the original photo.

n111u-lights-annot_zpszjq1xdar.jpg

N number - as pointed out previously by another poster, you can see it's on a plate held on by 4 screws.

n1111u-n-number_zpsrdely2qi.jpg

As far as the white dot on the side of the doghouse that may be an IR button light, I honestly can't tell. The dot is directly on the join line between the front and rear of the doghouse, and is just about exactly where the middle of 3 screws that hold the back end of a square access plate are. I think that would be a bad place to put an IR button light, plus there's already one of these mounted on the side of the aircraft. The white dot is also smaller than what a button light would be. As far as the dark object by the rear right strut, I can't tell what that is.

One other thing - if you look at a closeup of the antenna radome on top of the tailboom, you can see that it is slightly tilted to the left, towards the photographer. The tilt is obvious if you contrast the top of the radome with the angle of the top of the doghouse. This is typical of antennas mounted on this area of the boom, which need to be slightly offset from centerline due to the way the boom is designed.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

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