MirageIV Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) Hi guys, I have a few F-16 questions that I cannot find a definitive answer on the net,maybe some of you could help me out? :)/> 1. I am currently building a Block 30 F-16D IDF Barak. I am unsure on the following; a-Which were the first few squadrons using the Barak? The one with the lightning bolt on the tail IIRC. I want to model an early jet, maybe 1-2 years after delivery so not sure which ones were operated. b-Just checking on the ECM/antenna fit of the Blk30 D Barak. So far I know the modified ones either side of the front nose area, also the larger light fittings either side of the intake, the associated spine intakes/scoops. I am not sure however of the square panels located on the exhaust shroud area. Were these fitted early on, or Block 40 jets onwards? Are there any more I am missing? c-Were the lANTIRN pods fitted in the mid-late eighties? Or just limited to 'dumb' ordinance? Or is it block 40 jets onwards. d-Do they use the Heavy weight gear and bulged MLG doors? 2. Also I am building a Sufa, can this carry the Sniper pod? Or is it just the Nav pod and Lightning II target pod? Also are the Aim-120's only B and not C variant? 3. Finally I heard the Netz aircraft in Operation Opera had their Star of David overpainted with camo colours, is this true? Makes sense maybe ;)/> . I know it is a lot of questions but having read through some threads already some of you guys have a huge knowledge of the F-16, and IDF jets, and I would greatly appreciate any info/help on them :)/> Best regards and thank you in advance, David. Edited January 16, 2016 by MirageIV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
305swag Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I would recommend the isradecal book on the Barak, very good ref book. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hoops Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Hi guys, I have a few F-16 questions that I cannot find a definitive answer on the net,maybe some of you could help me out? :)/>/> 1. I am currently building a Block 30 F-16D IDF Barak. I am unsure on the following; a-Which were the first few squadrons using the Barak? The one with the lightning bolt on the tail IIRC. I want to model an early jet, maybe 1-2 years after delivery so not sure which ones were operated. b-Just checking on the ECM/antenna fit of the Blk30 D Barak. So far I know the modified ones either side of the front nose area, also the larger light fittings either side of the intake, the associated spine intakes/scoops. I am not sure however of the square panels located on the exhaust shroud area. Were these fitted early on, or Block 40 jets onwards? Are there any more I am missing? c-Were the lANTIRN pods fitted in the mid-late eighties? Or just limited to 'dumb' ordinance? Or is it block 40 jets onwards. d-Do they use the Heavy weight gear and bulged MLG doors? Referencing the aforementioned Book from Isradecal (which is excellent by the way): a) For your time frame, 87-89 the first fighter squadron (red/white striped rudder) Knights of the north squadron (eagle silloute on the tail) and the First Jet Squadron (silver lighting bolt) would have been flying Block 30s. B) No boxes on the donut panels of Block 30s c) The book mentions that there was some work with the "Sharpshooter" pod, a downgraded LANTIRN. There were only a handful purchased, so it would be unlikely to see one loaded, there is not a single picture of an operationally loaded Sharpshooter pod in the book. d) Block 30s have bulged gear doors, but I can't tell if they have heavyweight gear or not. I don't know of those two things are linked. Other things to keep in mind for Block 30, Ds had the wide mouth intake, C's did not. 30s did not have the HUD repeater on the aft instrument coaming. Block 30 cockpits were grey as well. There are a ton of other details, but that should get you started. Hoops Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 You don't state the scale you're building in, but the larger fairings on the side of the intake are in RoG's 1/72nd F-16 kit. Cheers, Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 d) Block 30s have bulged gear doors, but I can't tell if they have heavyweight gear or not. I don't know of those two things are linked. They are linked. The heavyweight gear required bulged main doors for wheel clearance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Netz Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 From my notes. Curt F-16C (D) Blk 30 All IAF Block 30s have the heavy weight gear; it's the intakes that differ between the C & D Block 30s IAF Block 30 Cs; NSI Intake, GE Exhaust IAF Block 30 Ds; MCID Intake, GE Exhaust IAF Block 40 C&Ds; MCID Intake, GE Exhaust IDF Block 30: 1. C models Small intake, D models Big Mouth 2."Heavy" weight gear, but Landing and Taxi light on the main struts, not the nose gear door as in Block 40 3. Block "50" wheels 4. all antennas and para brake housing yes same as block 40 5. Standard gray pit, as USAF. 6. No Pre-Cooler duct 7. No EM/EW antennas (the square ones) around the donut panel (BLK 40 only) 8. Chaff/Flare buckets, 4 on each side- total 8 . Block 40's have 3 each side, total 6. Also note IDF Block 30 & 40 "D" has only 2 Chaff Flare Buckets on the lower aft strakes, 1 per side. The rest are on the spine (-6 Block 30, -4 Block 40) IDF F-16 Chaff Flare Buckets Blk Model Left Right Spine L/R 30 C 4 4 30 D 1 1 3/3 40 C 3 1 40 D 1 1 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Any F-16 with the heavyweight wheels also has the prescribed bulges near the wing roots top and bottom. Block 40 upwards and any retrofitted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MirageIV Posted January 18, 2016 Author Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Guys thank you so much for the information, greatly appreciated :thumbsup:/> Hoops-Thank so much for the great info! :) Andre-It is in 1/72 with a Hase/Revell kit bash + some scratch likely. Roughly around about here atm, Netz-Again super info, thank you! cheers guys, exactly what I needed :worship:/> , David Edited January 18, 2016 by MirageIV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Niels Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 IAF F-16C block 30 have the "bigmouth" intake. Never seen any photo with the NSI inlet 😉 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) IAF F-16C block 30 have the "bigmouth" intake. Never seen any photo with the NSI inlet �� Some NSI Block 30 Baraks (3XX tail numbers), c.f. vertical ECS intake lip = NSI http://cdn-www.airli...6/7/2031763.jpg http://cdn-www.airli...9/3/1487398.jpg http://cdn-www.airli...8/0/0539088.jpg http://cdn-www.airli...7/3/2106379.jpg [...] Block 30 Barak with (retrofitted) MCID, c.f. oblique ECS intake lip = MCID http://cdn-www.airli...6/4/1360465.jpg Allegedly (according to the Isradecal F-16C/D Barak book) only a single Block 30 Barak, "360", received an MCID retrofit. "301" may have received its MCID replacement as a result from a landing mishap in the late 1980s. Edited January 19, 2016 by Airfixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Niels Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Strange, as most if not all the F-16C's of the IAF are FY87-vintage, and all GE engined Vipers after 86-0262 are produced defailt with MCID due to the extra air required by the this engine? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) The MCID was introduced with Block 30D standard, but despite their "higher" FY86-XXXX serials, IDFAF Baraks were manufactured according to Block 30, Block 30A, 30B and 30C standard. Maybe this can serve as an explanation as to the obvious deviation from the "86-0262 rule"... Provided it's in accordance with the facts: Source: Ra'anan Weiss, Alon Koren, Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Barak, Aircraft of the Israeli Air Force 4, Isradecal Publications Edited January 19, 2016 by Airfixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Niels Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Definatelly possible Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MirageIV Posted January 19, 2016 Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 I have one more question :D , can IDF Block 30 or 40 jets carry the AN/AAQ-13 nav pod for low level night attack? Also the HUD of their Block 40 jets seems not to be the WAR one so I guess maybe not? I have only seen targeting pods on these IDF jets bar the Sufa, though I have never seen a night photo of a Barak so cannot be sure they were non existent in IDF inventory in the late 80's-early 90's timeframe. Makes me wonder why not, seems to take away a significant capability of the jet when initially received. Thanks again :) David. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) And again, IDFAF Baraks were unique... Both Block 30 and Block 40 D-models were capable of carrying the LANTIRN targeting pod. WAR versus WAC HUD: The F-16C's Wide Angle Coventional HUD is well capable of processing and displaying raster images/videos generated by the night-vison sensors. However, the holographic WAR HUD, commonly attributed to Block 40 Vipers, features a significantly wider instantaneous field of view: 17x30 degrees versus 14x21 degrees (WAC HUD). Edited January 20, 2016 by Airfixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Strange, as most if not all the F-16C's of the IAF are FY87-vintage, and all GE engined Vipers after 86-0262 are produced defailt with MCID due to the extra air required by the this engine? That serial number cutoff is true of USAF Vipers only. FMS sales are a different story, as others have explained. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MirageIV Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 And again, IDFAF Baraks were unique... Both Block 30 and Block 40 D-models were capable of carrying the LANTIRN targeting pod. WAR versus WAC HUD: The F-16C's Wide Angle Coventional HUD is well capable of processing and displaying raster images/videos generated by the night-vison sensors. However, the holographic WAR HUD, commonly attributed to Block 40 Vipers, features a significantly wider instantaneous field of view: 17x30 degrees versus 14x21 degrees (WAC HUD). So only the AAQ-14 target pod, not the AAQ-13 Nav pod preventing low level night attack? As I understand it both together are classified as LANTIRN, singular pods designated respectively. So IDF Baraks do not use the LANTIRN system, only the targeting pods. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Both pods were called "LANTIRN", -113 was the LNP (Nav Pod) and -114 was the LTP (Targeting Pod). They could be operated independently or as a pair. The LNP was soon replaced by internal systems, that's why you now only see LTPs on jets. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hoops Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I've also never seen a picture of a Israeli F-16D with the LANTIRN Nav pod, only targeting pod. Interestingly I do have multiple pictures of F-16Is with a Nav pod and a LITENING at the same time. Cheers, Hoops Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MirageIV Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Both pods were called "LANTIRN", -113 was the LNP (Nav Pod) and -114 was the LTP (Targeting Pod). They could be operated independently or as a pair. The LNP was soon replaced by internal systems, that's why you now only see LTPs on jets. ah ok, sorry my knowledge on these jets/systems is pretty rubbish! What are these internal systems? Quite interested in how they still would be passive (-133 can be FLIR guidance IIRC or just simply TFR) opposed to TFR in other low level profiles. Also would these internal systems be on Block 30 or 40 Barak jets? I've also never seen a picture of a Israeli F-16D with the LANTIRN Nav pod, only targeting pod. Interestingly I do have multiple pictures of F-16Is with a Nav pod and a LITENING at the same time. Cheers, Hoops Yep thats my findings too. When the blk 40 was introduced, especially for all weather night attack ability, it seems odd the IDF didn't take up (or were not allowed) the full capability available to these jets. Edited January 21, 2016 by MirageIV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airfixer Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Anyway, as to what's really under the spine and skin of the Barak, a great deal is still clouded in secrecy. Absence of the LNP: When it comes to night-time operations, only very few air forces have gained a similar level of proficiency like the IDFAF, and the IDFAF was one of the very early adopters of night-vision goggles. The IAF top brass deemed a combination of Sharpshooter/LANTIRN targeting pods and Journal NVGs completely sufficient in order to perform effective night-time precision strikes. On the other hand, the top brass argued that a deep penetration strike platform like the F-15E was more suitable to exploit the capabilities of the LNP. Terrain Following Radar (TFR) in particular. Accordingly, the IDFAF had cast an eye on the F-15E since day one when IDFAF pilots were given the chance to fly the F-15E prototypes. Among them (then) IDFAF commander Maj. Gen. David Ivry. And a decade later, the LNP could be eventually found on the F-15I and the F-16I. Both of them - by IDFAF standards - dedicated deep penetration strike platforms. Edited January 22, 2016 by Airfixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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