vise101 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Hi fellas, I have a 1/72 Lanc that I need to paint black on the underside. Just a plain black does not look very realistic so I was wondering if you guys could share some of your methods. Any help would be appreciated. Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
airea Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I believe a realistic black in modeling is not black but something like nato black, rubber black, antrasite grey or something similar. So instead of painting the model with a nice pure black color, I would advice using above mentioned colors with some variations on different panels... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregax Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Oh, been there and done that. Don't use black. Use tire black instead. As Airea said.For weathering, I strongly reccomend Mig wash for black. It is fantastic product. Here it's how my Lancaster end up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
breadneck Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Alright, i`ll be the one to ask why not "black". What am i supposed to use my Humbrol #21, #33, #85 etc. for. Enlighten me please ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lancer512 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Black, as well as white are not seen in it's pure shade in nature. Instead we see many different shades of white or black. On a scale model, the normal black modeling colors would be too strong and look artificial. Also keep in mind that black fades very quickly, and I have not yet seen an uniform black or white coat on an aircraft yet. A similar topic with normal colors would be called "scale effect". You can always use your Humbrol blacks as a gloss black primer for metallics, preshading, or to mix darker shades of colors (i.e. white). Edited February 17, 2016 by Lancer512 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
breadneck Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 So the guy who came up with the term "seeing things in black & white" didn`t know what he was talking about? I`ll make a note of that. Seems to me the modelling colour spectrum should be stripped of two very basic colours. You mention scale effect. Are you referring to atmospherc haze and how to transfer this onto our model kits perhaps?! Uhm... What is the difference between scale effect and atmospheric haze ? I vaguely recall you can add a small amount of white to your paint colours to make it look more real world -ish ? Please excuse me for not using the english american term "color"... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewPerren Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Far be it for us to let facts get in the way of a good discussion but True Black & White are not colours at all. They are shades. Yes there is a difference. Neither is ever seen by the naked eye. Colour is "seen" when light of a given part of the visible spectrum is reflected from a surface and then received and "seen" by in our case the eye. The full spectrum of visible light is "seen" as near white, meaning all the visible wavelengths are reflected together combining to form our view of a white surface -but not true white. True black on the other hand is the complete absorption of all visible wavelengths meaning that no visible light is reflected which the eye interprets as black - but not true black. There will always be some external interference and reflections and blah blah blah blah.............. Maybe your guy should have spoken about seeing things in off white and very dark browny grey. :rolleyes:/>/> Though I suspect he wasn't talking about colour at all. On a positive note you can rest easy about your humbrol black because it's not black at all but more likely an extremely dark shade of green or violet. :monkeydance:/>/> Like others have already said, I prefer to use a very dark browny grey for "scale black" as my eye sees it. Edited February 18, 2016 by AndrewPerren Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B-ONE27 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Great 411 guys, already had nato black planned for my U-2R, guess I'll throw a combination of tire black on also or grey black. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
86Sabreboy1 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Hi fellas, I have a 1/72 Lanc that I need to paint black on the underside. Just a plain black does not look very realistic so I was wondering if you guys could share some of your methods. Any help would be appreciated. Kevin The key is red paint. If you are airbrushing for example, take one third to just under a half the amount of black you have and add that percentage of red to it. I do this before thinning of the paint. When airbrushed over a grey surface it my look purple initially with thin coats then change to a very dark chocolate color. Once dry and the airbrushing aspects are completed, gloss the model for decal application and washes where a appropriate. Then flat the model down. You'll achieve a good "scale" black as the red will warm the tones in the paint slightly. It's not rocket science. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vise101 Posted February 18, 2016 Author Share Posted February 18, 2016 Thanks for the info, I will experiment different shades of black and I will also try adding red to the mix. Appreciate the help, Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lancer512 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 You mention scale effect. Are you referring to atmospherc haze and how to transfer this onto our model kits perhaps?! Uhm... What is the difference between scale effect and atmospheric haze ? I vaguely recall you can add a small amount of white to your paint colours to make it look more real world -ish ? Please excuse me for not using the english american term "color"... I'll try to explain it briefly. Just paint a model of the same aircraft in 1/144 and 1/32 scale together with the same color. When viewed separately, the smaller model will appear darker to your eyes, because the model is smaller. But is is the same paint as on the 1/32 model. To get the smaller model look the same as the 1/32 model, it has to be lightened. It's a trick our brain is playing on us. That is the scale effect I am talking about. A good example with the "shades of black" is the above picture of the Lanc. Would you agree with me that the bottom of the aircraft appears black? So then, what colour are the wheel wells? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
balls47 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 True black and true white are not colors, but the absence of color. That is why they need to be "toned" up or down to make them look realistic. I won't claim credit for this info. It came from an art teacher. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
echolmberg Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 All great info, guys. My question is this then: If I use tire black for the aircraft, then what do I paint the tires? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lancer512 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 All great info, guys. My question is this then: If I use tire black for the aircraft, then what do I paint the tires? Well, that would depend on many factors, such as how long the tire has been in service, and if it is supposed to be wet or dry, dirty or clean. Just use a different shade of tire black :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chek Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 As has been previously stated, true black isn't a colour at all but an absence of light. If you look at photos of black aircraft, you'll notice that the panel lines are still black - indicating that no light is escaping from the depths of the panel gap. Therefore, the surrounding panel is not visually a true black at all, but something lighter. As has been mentioned, the artistic trick when modelling black on aircraft is to paint the panels a 'lighter' shade of black. By zooming in on black painted planes with a graphics program, you'll see squares of green, blue, brown and purple mixed in with what 'appears' to be black, but truly isn't. As my old art teacher never tired of pointing out, there really is no substitute for actually looking and seeing. Kind of like when the undersides of RAF bombers during WWII were painted a special super-matt black which was found to light up the exterior surface caught in a searchlight beam far more than a gloss black which was switched to in the later part of the war. Essentially the rule for blacks is to use it as a deep tone for colours. Try mixing a little colour in to reduce the 'black'. Blue/green/flesh/ mixes for black airframes, and brownish blacks for tyres should provide some tonal difference, and still allow panel lines to be darker. The worst thing you can do in any art-related sphere is to 'assume'. To be better than that means to look and really 'see' what you are trying to emulate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kaibutsu Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Kind of like when the undersides of RAF bombers during WWII were painted a special super-matt black which was found to light up the exterior surface caught in a searchlight beam far more than a gloss black which was switched to in the later part of the war. Very well said, Chek. Good tip(s) for me to remember. Where might I find information about the RAF bombers painted a special super-matt black? TIA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
f14tomcat Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Heck, even 1:1 US subs aren't painted black. It is a dark grey with a fine gritter added. You don't notice the gritter, but it is to look like starlight if hit wit a light at night. An old sub sailor. Edited February 19, 2016 by f14tomcat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chek Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Very well said, Chek. Good tip(s) for me to remember. Where might I find information about the RAF bombers painted a special super-matt black? TIA Thanks Kaibutsu. There's a quote from contemporaneous UK Air Ministry discussions spread throughout forums (as is most of this 'antique' history at this link. "Night was first developed in 1937 as a countermeasure to searchlights and for which it was effective. The existing Black paint in use had only Carbon Black pigment and consequently was very soft, polishing easily and becoming shiny. Night was produced to DTD 308 standard, and was a Type S paint meaning smooth. It contained Carbon Black and Ultramarine pigments. It was therefore not a true black but a dark grey or gunmetal colour. The Ultramarine was added to harden the paint, not to alter the colour. Because it was more durable than the black paint that had been in use up until then, it was deemed suitable for other purposes, e.g., propellers, serial numbers. At the start of WW II trials were being carried out at the AAEE and 85 Squadron to develop a new matt black camouflage paint that would have a non-reflective surface. This was developed into RMD 2A Special Night which was promulgated as the finish for the under surfaces of night bombers from January 1940.RMD 2A Special Night contained only Carbon Black pigment but of a larger size than used in DTD 308 Night. This gave it a very sooty black appearance sometimes described as lamp black and was very rough to the touch like sandpaper. RMD 2A was chemically different to DTD 308 and faulty application led to both poor adhesion and a characteristic white staining. Because of shortages of RMD 2A Special Night, the Air Ministry issued instructions that DTD 308 Night be used as for the first coat, i.e., DTD 308 Night be used as an undercoat. Coupled with the adhesion problems aircraft took on a very patchy appearance. On 30th Oct 1940 a meeting was held at the Air Ministry at which the subject of night fighter camouflage was discussed. The outcome was an agreement that night fighters be painted Matt Black overall. On 24th March 1941 DTD Circular no 144 was issued that explained that night fighter finish was to be RMD 2A Special Night. Comparative trials of two Mosquitoes fitted with different exhaust shrouds resulted in a speed difference of 26 mph. This was found to be due mainly to the slower aircraft being painted with RMD 2A Special Night while the other was painted with DTD 308 Night. This reached the attention of the CinC Fighter Command who, in Memo CS 11061, 5th Feb 1942, urged all production Mosquito night fighters to be finished with DTD 308 Night and all aircraft in service be returned to ASUs for repainting. The adverse affect that RMD 2A Special Night had on performance resulted in its withdrawal from use and replacement with its predecessor DTD 308 Night. There was some confusion between RDM 2A Special Night and DTD 308 Night so in an order dated 11th Oct 1942 DTD 308 Night was renamed DTD 308 Smooth Night." The so-called non-reflective special night finish, apart from its diminishing effect on aircraft performance, also tended to 'spread' the light beam across the lit surfaces whereas the smoother glossier paint tended to produce a highlight at the point(s) of impact and further along that particular plane only. Edited February 19, 2016 by chek Quote Link to post Share on other sites
breadneck Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I suppose a coat of any matt black coming from a paintbrush can not be compared to a coat of matt black from an airbrush. Perhaps the paint pigments settle in different ways ?! Maybe the airbrush approach simply look better and more "realistic" All this info really makes me feel less confident with using "B/W" paints. What if i get it wrong??? Another hypothetical situation. How would Humbrol matt black #33 look if painted on the underside of a 1:1 scale Lancaster? ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Exhausted Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Would it pay off to attempt some lighter or browner preshades if you were to marble the black on? Edited February 19, 2016 by Exhausted Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chek Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Breadneck, I've always thought that those folk who work with regular 'hairy stick' brushes to achieve their flawless finishes were superior to those of us who airbrush, which has always seemed to me an easier way to get apparently flawless finishes. That is, after you've mastered the 'rules of the road' and achieved semi-competence in laying down basic colour coats. The thing about matted blacks (and we're ranging here from sooty, rough surfaced early RAF night bombers to smooth black Mosquitoes to Gulf War F-117s) is that any lighter representation of your nominally black colour scheme should look like it IS black that's being represented. Looking through my spares box recently, I found a pair of 1/72 original Airfix Lancaster main wheels which I'd painted a 'tank grey' when that was all the rage in the model magazines at the time. Looked at now, they just looked like grey painted plastic wheels, and nothing like actual rubber tyres which can be seen right outside in the street by most of us. Exhausted - I'd recommend that you experiment until you find a finish that convinces you. The trick is to suggest the surface is black when it actually isn't. But not to allow any one of your added colours in the mix to 'steal the show' and dominate your effect. Remember you're aiming to suggest a blackish 'colour', and not a dark brown. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
86Sabreboy1 Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Now that I've figured out how to post pics, here's a step by step. In this particular case I added too much British Crimson but the process works. If necessary, prime the model a light grey. In this case I went with the grey plastic of this 1/144 SR-71. Preshade the panel lines first- Then mix flat black with a third to half of red, in this case I use British Crimson and airbrush panel to panel- Paint scheme is easy for the SR-71- Now gloss the model for decals and washes- Once the decals were on I used a grey pastel wash over the panel lines and flatted the model back down- Now finish off the rest of the build- As I said, in this case it came out a bit more brown than I would've expected but I've had good success with this process with other projects. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chek Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Nice contribution 86SB1. Hits the nail on the head so to speak. I like the toned blacks look you've achieved on your X-15. For your next SR-71-type colour experiment, a touch of green will help kill the red pigment in the brownish shade the crimson has added. Plus maybe a spot of blue to pull it towards the colder end of the colour spectrum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
86Sabreboy1 Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Nice contribution 86SB1. Hits the nail on the head so to speak. I like the toned blacks look you've achieved on your X-15. For your next SR-71-type colour experiment, a touch of green will help kill the red pigment in the brownish shade the crimson has added. Plus maybe a spot of blue to pull it towards the colder end of the colour spectrum. Thanks, as I mentioned in the post, I was a bit too aggressive with the British Crimson. Some blue may have brought it back a bit. I'll keep that in mind. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alternative 4 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 I have always used NATO black on 1/48 aircraft. To me it has the right scale effect. The suggestions offered in this thread (the SR-71 in particular) look very realistic to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.